Should United Methodists splits on the Gay and Lesbian ordainstion?

[brocke]

The sin identified in Sodom and Gomorrah was "Homosexuality" as the men of the city wanted the angels "Sexually" as Lot offered his two virgin daughters.

There is no prejudice towards the homosexuals, you repent of this sin, and start a new life.

You can't be in a good standing with God while practicing same sexual relations.

Men sleeping with men is sin.

Women sleeping with women is sin.

Unmarried heterosexual's sleeping together is sin.

Genesis 19:5-13KJV
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

I disagree with your assessment. Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality. God had already decided to destroy the cities as evident in the discourse with Abraham in Genesis 18. In Genesis 18:20-21 it says, "And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." The two cities were not being judged because of one particular sin, or because of just what the men tried to do the night the two angels visited Lot. The men in the city wanted to gang rape them and violate God's commands on treating the stranger in their midst. This is not talking about a committed loving relationship between same sex partners; which is the issue we face in modern times.

Again I say this is an example of how because of our prejudices we will focus in on one sin and ignore the overall corruption/sin we all commit.

My point here is that we can't single out homosexuality, especially as how it manifests itself these days, with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as there was more going on than just homosexuality. There was pagan sex rituals that have to be considered, the other sins and deep corruption in the two cities, and especially the breaking of God's commands on treating strangers within our midst.

I think the issue of homosexuality is more in line with things like the issue of slavery, interracial relationships, and women as property of their husbands in the scripture.

What I mean is with slavery, the Bible never condemns it. However, today through out Christianity we have come to condemn slavery and see it as contrary to God's will. But the scripture says it is okay to own slaves and proscribes how to treat them. We have come to distinguish the ancient views of slavery and servitude as different from modern slavery. As a result we can condemn it as sinful. Yet there is no scripture specifically speaking out against this.

In the past - unless you are a white supremacist and prejudice - scripture was used to condemn interracial relationships. However with the civil rights movement and changes in society we put aside this prejudice theology. Realizing that the passages in scripture that were being used to support this view were actually coming from a ancient tribal viewpoint where mixing with outsiders was frowned upon.

What about how women are viewed in the church? Unless you are part of a conservative fundamentalist tradition we no longer use the scriptures that a women are the property of their husband or that they cannot be leaders in the church. We have come to realize this is not in the will and overall plan of God's grace active in our world.

If we were to follow scripture to the letter, the Apostles would never had decided that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised.

Let us put aside our prejudices and instead do as we are called - to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit making disciples of Jesus Christ. Not placing restrictions on who can be saved because of the sin they have done. Remember Christ died for all of us while we were yet sinners. Romans 5:8

The OP was if the UMC should split over Gay and Lesbians being ordained. I say no. If we are going to go on hunts to pick out LGBTQ people then we have to hunt out the alcoholics, philanderers, embezzlers, liars, wife/children abusers, etc. Pastors with these sins exist in all traditions yet we will work with them. Why do we choose not to work with LGBTQ?

 

[ezra932]

The OP was if the UMC should split over Gay and Lesbians being ordained. I say no. If we are going to go on hunts to pick out LGBTQ people then we have to hunt out the alcoholics, philanderers, embezzlers, liars, wife/children abusers, etc. Pastors with these sins exist in all traditions yet we will work with them. Why do we choose not to work with LGBTQ?

are you saying they can be ordained and serve in the pulpit?

 

[Truth7t7]

I disagree with your assessment. Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality. God had already decided to destroy the cities as evident in the discourse with Abraham in Genesis 18. In Genesis 18:20-21 it says, "And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." The two cities were not being judged because of one particular sin, or because of just what the men tried to do the night the two angels visited Lot. The men in the city wanted to gang rape them and violate God's commands on treating the stranger in their midst. This is not talking about a committed loving relationship between same sex partners; which is the issue we face in modern times.

Again I say this is an example of how because of our prejudices we will focus in on one sin and ignore the overall corruption/sin we all commit.

My point here is that we can't single out homosexuality, especially as how it manifests itself these days, with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as there was more going on than just homosexuality. There was pagan sex rituals that have to be considered, the other sins and deep corruption in the two cities, and especially the breaking of God's commands on treating strangers within our midst.

I think the issue of homosexuality is more in line with things like the issue of slavery, interracial relationships, and women as property of their husbands in the scripture.

What I mean is with slavery, the Bible never condemns it. However, today through out Christianity we have come to condemn slavery and see it as contrary to God's will. But the scripture says it is okay to own slaves and proscribes how to treat them. We have come to distinguish the ancient views of slavery and servitude as different from modern slavery. As a result we can condemn it as sinful. Yet there is no scripture specifically speaking out against this.

In the past - unless you are a white supremacist and prejudice - scripture was used to condemn interracial relationships. However with the civil rights movement and changes in society we put aside this prejudice theology. Realizing that the passages in scripture that were being used to support this view were actually coming from a ancient tribal viewpoint where mixing with outsiders was frowned upon.

What about how women are viewed in the church? Unless you are part of a conservative fundamentalist tradition we no longer use the scriptures that a women are the property of their husband or that they cannot be leaders in the church. We have come to realize this is not in the will and overall plan of God's grace active in our world.

If we were to follow scripture to the letter, the Apostles would never had decided that Gentiles did not have to be circumcised.

Let us put aside our prejudices and instead do as we are called - to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit making disciples of Jesus Christ. Not placing restrictions on who can be saved because of the sin they have done. Remember Christ died for all of us while we were yet sinners. Romans 5:8

The OP was if the UMC should split over Gay and Lesbians being ordained. I say no. If we are going to go on hunts to pick out LGBTQ people then we have to hunt out the alcoholics, philanderers, embezzlers, liars, wife/children abusers, etc. Pastors with these sins exist in all traditions yet we will work with them. Why do we choose not to work with LGBTQ?

Work with LGBTQ?

You aren't going to change God's words concerning homosexuality.

God's word clearly speaks about homosexuality, it's "SIN/ABOMINATION".

The sin identified in Sodom and Gomorrah was "Homosexuality" as the men of the city wanted the angels "Sexually" as Lot offered his two virgin daughters.

There is no prejudice towards the homosexuals, you repent of this sin, and start a new life.

You can't be in a good standing with God while practicing same sexual relations.

Men sleeping with men is sin.

Women sleeping with women is sin.

Unmarried heterosexual's sleeping together is sin.

Genesis 19:5-13KJV
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Interestingly, Christian society today is amazingly lax concerning divorce and remarriage. Most churches accept divorced and remarried people into both their membership and into their clergy. Jesus was adamantly opposed to divorce and remarriage, although the Old Testament did permit it.

So, which is the worse sin?

 

[brocke]

are you saying they can be ordained and serve in the pulpit?

Well currently the UMC prohibits the ordination of homosexuals. But they do get through the system and are ordained. What I am saying is if an alcoholic or abuser for example can sneak through the system and be ordained and serve in the pulpit then why can't a homosexual. They all are sinning. It is not the person that makes something holy it is God that makes things holy.

To say a Pastor has to be totally free of sin is ridiculous. Don't get me wrong they must possess a good character for leadership and pastoral ministry as explained in the letters to Timothy, Titus, and from Peter. My question is why will we ignore the sins of Pastors and then focus on just homosexuality? It is not clear that the homosexuality of Bible times that involved pagan sexual rituals, and power abuse over others is the same issue as we face today where people want to have a committed loving relationship centered around God.

Okay there's the simply reasoning but so I'm clear for you. Yes I think they can be ordained and serve in the pulpit. Why not, if I a single heterosexual can commit to the celibacy requirement and yet face my lusts for women can be ordained and serve the pulpit. Why can't a heterosexual commit to the same celibacy clause and face their temptations be ordained and serve in the pulpit? We are not talking about promiscuous sex. Even the activists within Christianity seeking to allow homosexuals to be allowed to be Pastors are not seeking that. They are seeking for the prejudices directed at a sexual orientation to end.

 

[brocke]

Work with LGBTQ?

You aren't going to change God's words concerning homosexuality.

God's word clearly speaks about homosexuality, it's "SIN/ABOMINATION".

The sin identified in Sodom and Gomorrah was "Homosexuality" as the men of the city wanted the angels "Sexually" as Lot offered his two virgin daughters.

There is no prejudice towards the homosexuals, you repent of this sin, and start a new life.

You can't be in a good standing with God while practicing same sexual relations.

Men sleeping with men is sin.

Women sleeping with women is sin.

Unmarried heterosexual's sleeping together is sin.

Genesis 19:5-13KJV
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

The Bible says it so it must be that way once and for always argument. Except for circumcision, eating of certain foods, slavery, ritual cleansing, the position of women in society, oh and don't forget we don't have to forgive debt in the year of Jubilee, etc. There are many things in the scripture that proscribe how we are to behave. They are proscriptions we recognize as being caught in the ancient times of thinking and cultural context. I am saying that the issue of homosexuality is perhaps one of those things in scripture. Again we are comparing an act in Biblical times that was involved in pagan worship and power abuse; not a committed loving relationship seeking to have God in its midst.

BTW you can't say the only reason Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed is homosexuality, because of the men wanting to gang rape the angels. God had already declared the city would be destroyed because of its corruption and the cry that raised up about that corruption. It was not simply because of the homosexual gang rape. It was because of the overall corruption.

 

[HatGuy]

I wonder how much you actually understand the church you were raised in because of how you frame your comment. "The UMC conference is liberal...." Has me raising some questions right away. One, there is no UMC conference. There are annual conferences within the UMC which are set up geographically mostly. There is the General Conference that has delegates elected from the annual conferences that attend the General Conference every four years. From there are appointed the people who fill roles at the General Conference level. But the polity and all is decided by majority vote by the General Conference vote. The UMC church as a whole is not Liberal or Conservative. It is a mix of both - in other words the full spectrum. Also you can't say the conference is liberal since the conference is delegates from all the churches within an annual conferences and you have a mix across the spectrum of delegates.

As for stating that he UMC has "strayed away from what the Wesley Brothers started." That would require a different debate thread I think. Mainly, since the Methodist movement in the USA developed into quite a different thing than what did in Britain. Mainly, because of the revolutionary war. Remember the Wesleys never left the Anglican church. After the revolutionary war the Anglican church pretty much was run out of the US. As a result John Wesley gave his consent for the Methodists to form a denomination.

Now how that denomination has strayed from what the Wesleys originally did I think is debatable. We still practice open communion, we are still organized around a conferencing system, the doctrinal statements are still the same as John Wesley set them forth, we still form groups for discipleship, we go to prisons to minister, we feed the hungry, etc. So how have we strayed from what the Wesleys started? I think more what you mean is the UMC current direction in its thinking, polity, and processes are not with your agreeing. Which if so that is okay. You should be in another denomination.

What about all that stuff about holiness? The core of Wesleyan teaching?

 

[brocke]

What about all that stuff about holiness? The core of Wesleyan teaching?

Grace is the core of Wesleyan teaching. God makes us holy not anything we do.

 

[HatGuy]

Grace is the core of Wesleyan teaching. God makes us holy not anything we do.

Yes, of course, but I'm thinking of quotes from Wesley, such as when he said that Methodism's mission is to "spread scriptural holiness throughout the land."

I think, historically speaking, holiness was always the core Methodist driver. Obviously, grace and faith is what gets you there, but I was trying to show that there is a "there".

It's grace that gets you to holiness. But what does holiness look like? Does LGBTQ representations of sex fit into the scriptural holiness framework? If so, how?

 

[Major1]

Generally speaking, if a group within a church decides they wish to preach and follow something other than God's word, then the door should be held open for them...once when they leave and again if they decide to return to the faith.

Agreed!