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Featured Should United Methodists splits on the Gay and Lesbian ordainstion?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by mathinspiration, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. mathinspiration

    mathinspiration Active Member

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    What are your opinions?
     
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  2. HereIStand

    HereIStand Regular Member Supporter

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    Yes, from what I read they should. Homosexual relationships are officially forbidden according to the Book of Discipline. Invariably though, some find a way to ignore or skirt the rules.
     
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    What is your position my brother?

    Do you follow the Denomination's polocies or do you accept God's polocies. That is always the key to understanding my friend.

    Leviticus 18:22...........
    “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman that is abomination".

    Leviticus 20:13...........
    “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is an abomination. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    Romans 1:27.............
    "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due".

    Now then, did God say that??????
    Do you think that God can lie????

    So again the question to you........what is YOUR position?
     
  4. brocke

    brocke Supreme Ruler of Universe

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    There is some confusion about the United Methodist church "rules". First, the United Methodist church is not a confessional church. That is we do not require one to hold to a set of confessions or statements in order to be a member of the UMC. We do not require you to sign some card saying I will do this, or I will not do that. Actually the UMC membership vows are part of the Baptismal service. So all we require is the confession of Christ as lord and savior, renouncement of evil, a commitment to serve the church with our presence and gifts. That is it, one does not even have to hold to the doctrinal statements within the Book of Discipline. And yes the United Methodist do have doctrinal and theological believes/stances that cannot be changed.

    With that said, in the Book of Discipline the restriction on Homosexuals being ordained and married are not in the doctrinal statements. They are in the section called Social Principles. These are not meant to be equated with dogmatic doctrinal positions but are policy statements of how the church in general is to conduct itself. For example: you will find a prohibition against using bottled water for environmental reasons in this section. This is not viewed as a sin if you drink bottled water. However, it is frowned upon if you are at a major church function/event such as Annual Conference and are serving bottle water to people.

    The problem thus in the UMC with the LGBTQ issues is that we first have believes and opinions that fall all over the spectrum from Left/Progressive to the Right/Conservative. What is happening in the UMC right now is that some on the extremes have said; set up the language in the Book of Discipline and the function of the denomination to how I believe. Then kick those that don't believe our way or we are leaving.

    As for citing the four passages in scripture that admonish homosexuality there is deep debate as to how much they involve the pagan sexual rituals, power of the strong over the weak, versus the type of committed relationships we are seeing these days amongst people of the LGBTQ community. I'm not trying to turn this forum into that debate. I am just trying to clarify the UMC issue and why it is leading to the upcoming split.

    It was asked what is my position? God's grace is for everyone, so we should stop being prejudice and putting restrictions only upon one group. That also includes upholding some old testament laws and ignoring others because we think they don't apply since Christ's death on the cross.
     
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  5. ezra932

    ezra932 New Member

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    the UMC conference is liberal..they have strayed away from what the wesley Brothers started i was raised in the umc i went back and preached 2 weeks for them sad i wonder how many even understood the Bible . even though i no longer attend the the umc .my dislike is with the conference they set the standards and they will be held accountable
     
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  6. brocke

    brocke Supreme Ruler of Universe

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    I wonder how much you actually understand the church you were raised in because of how you frame your comment. "The UMC conference is liberal...." Has me raising some questions right away. One, there is no UMC conference. There are annual conferences within the UMC which are set up geographically mostly. There is the General Conference that has delegates elected from the annual conferences that attend the General Conference every four years. From there are appointed the people who fill roles at the General Conference level. But the polity and all is decided by majority vote by the General Conference vote. The UMC church as a whole is not Liberal or Conservative. It is a mix of both - in other words the full spectrum. Also you can't say the conference is liberal since the conference is delegates from all the churches within an annual conferences and you have a mix across the spectrum of delegates.

    As for stating that he UMC has "strayed away from what the Wesley Brothers started." That would require a different debate thread I think. Mainly, since the Methodist movement in the USA developed into quite a different thing than what did in Britain. Mainly, because of the revolutionary war. Remember the Wesleys never left the Anglican church. After the revolutionary war the Anglican church pretty much was run out of the US. As a result John Wesley gave his consent for the Methodists to form a denomination.

    Now how that denomination has strayed from what the Wesleys originally did I think is debatable. We still practice open communion, we are still organized around a conferencing system, the doctrinal statements are still the same as John Wesley set them forth, we still form groups for discipleship, we go to prisons to minister, we feed the hungry, etc. So how have we strayed from what the Wesleys started? I think more what you mean is the UMC current direction in its thinking, polity, and processes are not with your agreeing. Which if so that is okay. You should be in another denomination.
     
  7. ezra932

    ezra932 New Member

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    i am in a different denom..the umc i was raised in. is so cut and dried .if they drooped the united Methodist and moved away from the conference board .went back to being Methodist they would be better off many of the ministers are just vocational ..simply a hirling . unless the church has a large amount of members. they spread the pastor out to at least 3 churches... some only has preaching once a month but yes the conference is liberal .if i kicked the golden cow of religion over i am sorry .. many denoms have strayed away from the truth and went with man made ideas.instead of spirit led
     
  8. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Generally speaking, if a group within a church decides they wish to preach and follow something other than God's word, then the door should be held open for them...once when they leave and again if they decide to return to the faith.
     
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  9. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    "Renouncement Of Evil"?

    What Do You Think Homosexuality Is, "Evil"!

    I Think God Speaks Loud And Clear On The Issue Of Homosexuality.

    2 Peter 2:6KJV
    And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.

    Romans 1:26-32KJV
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly
    , and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
     
  10. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Actually God calls homosexuality an "Abomination".
     
  11. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    I prefer to follow the Lord in this matter. This is what He thinks of this issue.

    Gen 19:5-29 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

    Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and He will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with You to break the door.

    But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    And the men said unto Lot, Have You here any besides? Son in law, and Your sons, and Your daughters, and whatsoever You have in the city, bring them out of this place:For We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD has sent Us to destroy it.

    And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

    And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take Your wife, and Your two daughters, which are here; lest You be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

    And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of His wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

    And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

    And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, My Lord: Behold now, Your servant has found grace in Your sight, and You have magnified Your mercy, which You have showed unto Me in saving My life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.

    And He said unto Him, See, I have accepted You concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which You have spoken. Make haste You, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

    God Destroys Sodom

    The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

    But his wife looked back from behind Him, and She became a pillar of salt.

    And Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD: And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

    And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

    Andy Centek
     
  12. ezra932

    ezra932 New Member

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    you have just gave us your good works i am speaking of the conference they closes churches at will.the Church is being programmed by the conference
     
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    The Church isn't being programmed, they are closing the Churches nd dividing in attempts to remove the abomination of Homosexuality.

    You are seeing the struggle between the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light before your eyes.

    What kingdom do you subscribe to?

    The rainbow flag?

    Cross of Christ?

    No such thing as a rainbow cross.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  14. ezra932

    ezra932 New Member

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    no many country churches are being closed...
     
  15. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    Concerning the churches of man. Did Jesus teach that man should belong to a Denominations or that man should seek to establish any of them.
    The apostle Paul was appointed the apostle to he Gentiles by Jesus Christ; He did not preach establish Denominations. Why?

    Php 2:4-16 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Wherefore God also has highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every language (tongue) should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Wherefore, My beloved, as You have always obeyed, not as in My presence only, but now much more in My absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Do all things without murmurings and disputings:That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.

    Work it out for yourself! How? By following what the Holy Spirit caused to be written down for us by our apostle,Paul.
    Is there anything said in the scirptures about forming Denomanations? No, there is not; these is said just the oppisite: BE IN UNITY OF THE SPIRIT.

    Andy Centek
     
  16. ronandcarol

    ronandcarol Member

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    Should United Methodists splits on the Gay and Lesbian ordainstion?
    My opinion is that when any church compromises God's word, you should quickly leave and look for a church that preaches ONLY what is in the Bible.
    ronandcarol
     
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  17. brocke

    brocke Supreme Ruler of Universe

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    Good works? LOL how do you get that? I'm not a Calvanist I'm Weslyan in my theology.

    First as for your remark of 1 pastor to 3 churches remark in another post being how UMC is straying away from Wesley's intent. You are wrong. After all Wesley only ordained 2 guys to be clergy for the whole 13 colonies after the revolution. From there they created the clergy as circuit riders who only came to their churches once in a 3-4 month period. I the Wesleyan tradition only the ordained may administer communion - so the churches we led by laity not clergy. I would argue that the UMC by assigning a minister to 2-3 churches is returning to its roots not straying from it. Although that method is very stressful as many today will state, and even Wesley mentions the stress it would put on the pastors.

    Now about the conference closing churches. Since Wesley the churches were owned by the collection of churches within a Conference. Even when Wesley was establishing the Preaching houses he demanded the deed for property was put in his hands and the collection. The UMC has maintained that tradition - so when a church comes to a point that it is dying and needs to be closed it has to go through conference. The Conferences do not just step in a close churches for no reason. Congregations that are struggling will be set up with a Clergy member who will pastor their church and another, or even three if need be. The two or three churches are then allowed to continue on seeking where God will take them next, if to grow again or die.

    In the past if a church has strayed too far from orthodox teaching or from Arminianism theology, or more readily it just takes off on its own ignoring the collection that is called the Annual Conference then the Bishop will step in and close a church. I know of a case where the church was being controlled by one family, and would interefere with the churches mission, vision, and would subvert anything the pastor would do. Therefore, the church was closed down. A month later they reopened and reorganized the churches administrative structure.

    They are not running around just closing churches for no reason. Currently it is the decline seen in all Christian churches throughout the USA, that is causing churches to be closed. The individual churches come to a point where they are not evangelizing anymore, they are down to a few families for a congregation, and they can't afford to keep the church buildings open. At this point a church may be closed, but since the churches are part of the collection of churches making up the conference it is an Annual conference decision to close them. Lately in UMC the view is if a church is dying and not wanting to renew and begin to grow again - Let it Die. As many pastors and myself included in UMC we are refusing to serve a dying church.

    Again I don't think you understand how the UMC is organized and functions.
     
  18. brocke

    brocke Supreme Ruler of Universe

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    Okay with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. That is dealing with God's commands on dealing with strangers in the midst of a holy people, and a situation of gang rape or violent sexual abuse. Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed just because of homosexuality. Also some would argue that it is not dealing with a same sex relationship that seeks to have a committed partnership that also seeks God to be in that relationship. So some would argue it is not really valid to the discussion of homosexuality as it refers to gross corruption of wickedness and sins that humans can do.

    As for Romans. Why is it in the New Testament lists Paul makes of sins and mentions homosexuality we ignore the other corruptions and sins he lists. For example in Romans 1:29 he states "debate" as one of the unrighteousness acts in his list. If that's the case than this whole forum is sin and an abomination.

    I say it is a prejudice towards LGBTQ people that causes us to single that out and thus ignore the other warnings in scripture. If I a debater, who has lied, stolen, had premarital sex, probably been a heretic at times, drank alcohol, played poker, danced (and still does) - and can be saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. Not by any work I have done but only in faith by the grace of God. Then also can an LGBTQ person be a Christian not by any work they do or fail to do, but in faith by the grace of God.

    If we who are freed from sin, yet are still sinners can be saved then why can't a homosexual? I'll tell you why. Because of prejudice, not because of God refuses to give grace to some.
     
  19. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    The sin identified in Sodom and Gomorrah was "Homosexuality" as the men of the city wanted the angels "Sexually" as Lot offered his two virgin daughters.

    There is no prejudice towards the homosexuals, you repent of this sin, and start a new life.

    You can't be in a good standing with God while practicing same sexual relations.

    Men sleeping with men is sin.

    Women sleeping with women is sin.

    Unmarried heterosexual's sleeping together is sin.

    Genesis 19:5-13KJV
    5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
    6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
    7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
    8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
    9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
    11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
    12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
    13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.
     
  20. ezra932

    ezra932 New Member

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    i fully understand the old Methodist was a very spirit filled body the umc controlled /traditions..but to be fair church attendance is in decline all over
     
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