Should Ukraine invade Russia?

Should Ukraine invade Russia?


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Doesn't matter how much credibility those referendums have to us. What matters is what credibility they will have to the russians, and those will believe whatever their state tv tells them was the credibility.

I agree that the Russian people will have little objection to the expansion of their territory and will not care too much about the legitimacy of the process. This is one reason why it is vital to recapture the West bank of the Dnieper. If the Russians annex Kherson with the West bank also then they have a stranglehold on all the river traffic so vital for Ukrainian trade.
 
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Halbhh

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I still feel it unlikely that either regime change in Russia or reconquest by Ukraine is possible.
Is your feeling on it changing some?
 
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Is your feeling on it changing some?

The Ukrainians used the Southern offensive around Kherson as a way to draw in Russia's best troops. Meanwhile, they just reclaimed 9000 km2 of Russian territory in the North. This seems to have forced Putin to redefine this as a war so that he can order a general mobilization. He is doing this by arranging referendums to annex the territories he has seized. When they are a part of Russia, attacks on them become attacks on Russian sovereign territory. Then the "special operation" becomes a war and a general mobilization and even the use of nukes becomes possible.

My feeling is that not even this will save him. There are doubts that even 300000 more troops will be enough against the Ukrainian army that is now emerging and demonstrating its worth in the North. Militarily on such a large, extended front, the use of tactical nukes may not be that effective and in fact may alienate India and China on whom his future trade strategy depends. Even if he continues to hold the West bank of the Dnieper then it will only be at immense cost and at the risk of losing many of his troops there and elsewhere. This investment allows the Ukrainians to launch attacks on the weakest parts of what is an increasingly extended front.

In the beginning, I believed the Russians would be more successful than they have been in practice and especially in the North. As time passes the competence and capabilities of the Ukrainians are increasing exponentially while those of Russia are eroding.

Putin would be wise to call it quits now as he will only lose men and territory as time passes and maybe also the favor of India and China who are not as supportive of his agenda as perhaps he hoped because of the potential costs to themselves of a prolonged war. But I still doubt Ukraine can win this by military means and expel the Russians completely from Crimea and Donbas for instance. This is still heading for a draw. But it remains open: how long it will take, how many lives it will cost and where they will draw the ceasefire lines.
 
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Nithavela

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How could Ukraine invade Russia even if they wanted to? They're losing the war, and badly at that. First they would have to retake all the land that Russian forces have taken from them, and I don't see even that happening any time soon.
There really is no law of nature that says you have to control 100% of your territory before you're allowed to invade another country.
 
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There really is no law of nature that says you have to control 100% of your territory before you're allowed to invade another country.

Tannu Tuva might be a Russian example of this. Or indeed D day by the British as the Channel islands were under German occupation at the time.

Of course, this was a pre-nuclear age. Also, the goal of Ukraine is not to conquer Russia but rather to simply expel it.
 
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Nithavela

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Tannu Tuva might be a Russian example of this. Or indeed D day by the British as the Channel islands were under German occupation at the time.

Of course, this was a pre-nuclear age. Also, the goal of Ukraine is not to conquer Russia but rather to simply expel it.
When your enemy is shooting into your country with artillery from his country, at some point you have to do something about that artillery.
 
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When your enemy is shooting into your country with artillery from his country, at some point you have to do something about that artillery.

Well, mysterious explosions seem to be happening in ammo dumps and airfields, and artillery positions within the range of the Ukraine war. But not invasions. The semantics are the difference between mushroom clouds and conventional war.
 
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Nithavela

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Well, mysterious explosions seem to be happening in ammo dumps and airfields, and artillery positions within the range of the Ukraine war. But not invasions. The semantics are the difference between mushroom clouds and conventional war.
If russia wanted to throw nukes, they'd already have done so.
 
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If russia wanted to throw nukes, they'd already have done so.

No, because this is just a "special operation". When Putin gets his 99% votes for annexation from the conquered territories, then he can make these territories a part of Russia. Then Ukrainian attacks on them are attacks on Russia. Nukes can only be used when the existential existence of Russia itself is threatened. Putin makes that threat real by redrawing the borders. It is all a sham and no one but a few hardliners in the Kremlin actually believe this logic, but this is what he is doing.
 
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Nithavela

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No, because this is just a "special operation". When Putin gets his 99% votes for annexation from the conquered territories, then he can make these territories a part of Russia. Then Ukrainian attacks on them are attacks on Russia. Nukes can only be used when the existential existence of Russia itself is threatened. Putin makes that threat real by redrawing the borders. It is all a sham and no one but a few hardliners in the Kremlin actually believe this logic, but this is what he is doing.
Putin can do whatever Putin wants to do. He's a dictator, he is not bound by law. The russian law is only a tool for him and changes on his whim, both in text and in interpretation by the courts of law he has filled with judges who are beholden to him. Anyone who speaks up against him ends up falling out of a window.

If Putin really was just waiting for an "attack" on russian soil to shoot his nuclear missiles, he had the perfect chance to do so when Ukraine blew up a crimean airbase.

That he didn't do so is all the evidence you need for his intentions.
 
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Putin can do whatever Putin wants to do. He's a dictator, he is not bound by law. The russian law is only a tool for him and changes on his whim, both in text and in interpretation by the courts of law he has filled with judges who are beholden to him. Anyone who speaks up against him ends up falling out of a window.

If Putin really was just waiting for an "attack" on russian soil to shoot his nuclear missiles, he had the perfect chance to do so when Ukraine blew up a crimean airbase.

That he didn't do so is all the evidence you need for his intentions.

You are right Crimea was an attack on "Russian soil" though both sides seemed keen to downplay that. I am hoping that he realizes that no one can win a nuclear war and that those around him still love their country and children enough to affirm that truth at the crucial moment. So we are talking about the usage of tactical nukes rather than WW3. I wonder how militarily effective this usage would be and given the diplomatic heat, it would generate, including with India and China, he might consider it not to be worth it. Threats and bluster are the currency of dictators. Putin seems to be someone who does what he says though and that is a major worry when it comes to nuclear weapons and so his words cannot be lightly dismissed.
 
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Nithavela

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You are right Crimea was an attack on "Russian soil" though both sides seemed keen to downplay that. I am hoping that he realizes that no one can win a nuclear war and that those around him still love their country and children enough to affirm that truth at the crucial moment. So we are talking about the usage of tactical nukes rather than WW3. I wonder how militarily effective this usage would be and given the diplomatic heat, it would generate, including with India and China, he might consider it not to be worth it. Threats and bluster are the currency of dictators. Putin seems to be someone who does what he says though and that is a major worry when it comes to nuclear weapons and so his words cannot be lightly dismissed.
Watch me lightly dismiss him.

Even if his threats are real, they have to be dismissed.

Do you want to live in a world where every nuclear power can invade its non-nuclear armed neighbours, hold a fake referendum and then have everyone back done because of their nukes?
 
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Halbhh

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You are right Crimea was an attack on "Russian soil" though both sides seemed keen to downplay that. I am hoping that he realizes that no one can win a nuclear war and that those around him still love their country and children enough to affirm that truth at the crucial moment. So we are talking about the usage of tactical nukes rather than WW3. I wonder how militarily effective this usage would be and given the diplomatic heat, it would generate, including with India and China, he might consider it not to be worth it. Threats and bluster are the currency of dictators. Putin seems to be someone who does what he says though and that is a major worry when it comes to nuclear weapons and so his words cannot be lightly dismissed.

2 interesting topics, so I'll put the other in a separate post.

I think Putin's wordings are reliably meant to be for propaganda effect, such as trying to create a rationale that he thought might make the west less united, etc.:
Feb 2022
Russia does not want war, Putin says - BBC News

Jan 2022:
Vladimir Putin says Russia will not invade Ukraine but sends warning to West | ITV News

Of course, he's trying to make it seem (before the fact) that Russia was pushed into the war against its will.

Of course that's wording meant to provide cover/rationales, to aid efforts to help create division in the West.

And it worked to some extent. Of course some American talk show hosts at least for a while took up Putin's rhetoric, etc.


If not for such things as Bucha, which just showed the true colors of the attitudes, after Putin awarded special honors to those troops that carried out the murders/atrocity in Bucha, etc -- then perhaps that propaganda would have worked better and longer.
 
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Halbhh

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If Putin finally resorted to tactical nukes, it would be too far a contradiction to be possible to fit to the domestic propaganda Putin used about the war, rationales a large portion of the population still believes, such as the idea that Ukrainians are really just naturally to be Russians and only have some nazis in control and they are Russian 'brothers' and so on. Once you clearly are definitely the one doing mass murder -- Ukraine doesn't have nukes, so it could not be blamed, it would not be possible to claim it was Ukraine 'staged' etc. --...then even fall back lies meant to protect the key initial lies would not work, and so those key rationales sold to many Russians would collapse, at the same time the population is opposed to the draft.


You are right Crimea was an attack on "Russian soil" though both sides seemed keen to downplay that. I am hoping that he realizes that no one can win a nuclear war and that those around him still love their country and children enough to affirm that truth at the crucial moment. So we are talking about the usage of tactical nukes rather than WW3. I wonder how militarily effective this usage would be and given the diplomatic heat, it would generate, including with India and China, he might consider it not to be worth it. Threats and bluster are the currency of dictators. Putin seems to be someone who does what he says though and that is a major worry when it comes to nuclear weapons and so his words cannot be lightly dismissed.
Watch me lightly dismiss him.

Even if his threats are real, they have to be dismissed.

Do you want to live in a world where every nuclear power can invade its non-nuclear armed neighbours, hold a fake referendum and then have everyone back done because of their nukes?
 
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Yaaten

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There really is no law of nature that says you have to control 100% of your territory before you're allowed to invade another country.

True, but it makes perfect strategic sense to first remove any possibility of your enemy continuing to cause misery and havoc on your home soil, and a failure to do this can have disastrous consequences.
 
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Halbhh

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The Ukrainians used the Southern offensive around Kherson as a way to draw in Russia's best troops. Meanwhile, they just reclaimed 9000 km2 of Russian territory in the North. This seems to have forced Putin to redefine this as a war so that he can order a general mobilization. He is doing this by arranging referendums to annex the territories he has seized. When they are a part of Russia, attacks on them become attacks on Russian sovereign territory. Then the "special operation" becomes a war and a general mobilization and even the use of nukes becomes possible.

My feeling is that not even this will save him. There are doubts that even 300000 more troops will be enough against the Ukrainian army that is now emerging and demonstrating its worth in the North. Militarily on such a large, extended front, the use of tactical nukes may not be that effective and in fact may alienate India and China on whom his future trade strategy depends. Even if he continues to hold the West bank of the Dnieper then it will only be at immense cost and at the risk of losing many of his troops there and elsewhere. This investment allows the Ukrainians to launch attacks on the weakest parts of what is an increasingly extended front.

In the beginning, I believed the Russians would be more successful than they have been in practice and especially in the North. As time passes the competence and capabilities of the Ukrainians are increasing exponentially while those of Russia are eroding.

Putin would be wise to call it quits now as he will only lose men and territory as time passes and maybe also the favor of India and China who are not as supportive of his agenda as perhaps he hoped because of the potential costs to themselves of a prolonged war. But I still doubt Ukraine can win this by military means and expel the Russians completely from Crimea and Donbas for instance. This is still heading for a draw. But it remains open: how long it will take, how many lives it will cost and where they will draw the ceasefire lines.

In an Epic Battle of Tanks, Russia Was Routed... (report today)​

While back in April March (17th) I wrote that Russia would lose, i didn't imagine how often they'd lose on the way to losing.

 
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Yaaten

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I didn't know this discussion was still going. Anyway, the entire point is moot, because Ukraine isn't even close to winning this war, by any definition of the word "winning". Without the full support of NATO (financial, military, political, economic) they'd have already lost months ago.
 
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Nithavela

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I didn't know this discussion was still going. Anyway, the entire point is moot, because Ukraine isn't even close to winning this war, by any definition of the word "winning". Without the full support of NATO (financial, military, political, economic) they'd have already lost months ago.
Good thing they have the support then, don't they?
 
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