Should one be fully submerged for Baptism?

[ArohaB]

Maybe so but at a time that they understood. Also who is going to completely submerge a baby under water, no-one I hope so oh lets make up our own version and sprinkle the baby with droplets of "Holy Water".
We are called to be "Born Again", this is for adults eg when Nicodemus asked the question, "How can a man be born when he is already old?", he didn't ask can a baby go back where it just came from....
There is no Biblical evidence for sprinkling babies on the head with drops of water and calling it baptism, this is so twisted by a few scriptures to look that way, but I totally disagree that it's worthwhile as in calling it Baptism, and who invented confirmation anyways, I haven't seen Jesus asking me to do it, if i got baptised as a baby...
Which for the record I was Christened, as my parents didn't know any better, when my Mum was introduced to the truth, her and I were Baptised as consenting adults completely nulling what was done out of tradition.

 

[KEPLER]

Maybe so but at a time that they understood. Also who is going to completely submerge a baby under water, no-one I hope so oh lets make up our own version and sprinkle the baby with droplets of "Holy Water".

Maybe you came in late on this disucssion? I made a note a few posts earlier that the Eastern Orthodox Churches actually do IMMERSE infants! They have done so for 2000 years.

We are called to be "Born Again", this is for adults eg when Nicodemus asked the question, "How can a man be born when he is already old?", he didn't ask can a baby go back where it just came from....

That conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus is self-evidently limited to adult converts. 'Nuff said.

There is no Biblical evidence for sprinkling babies on the head with drops of water and calling it baptism,

Actually this whole thread has been a conflation of two separate issues (and I confess I am guilty of helping it stay off track). This thread is about method of baptism, not about the age of those who are baptized. I will not continue to keep it off track, here.

As I said above, the EOs immerse infants. If you'd like to be enlightened as the completely and wholly Scriptural practice of baptizing infants which the church began doing as soon as the first generation of newborn infants arrived on the planet (ca. 50 AD), feel free to start a new thread, and many posters can fill you in.

 

[Melethiel]

Also who is going to completely submerge a baby under water, no-one I hope

Ever talked to the Eastern Orthodox? That is exactly how I was baptized. As an infant, immersed in water.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Maybe so but at a time that they understood. Also who is going to completely submerge a baby under water, no-one I hope so oh lets make up our own version and sprinkle the baby with droplets of "Holy Water".
We are called to be "Born Again", this is for adults eg when Nicodemus asked the question, "How can a man be born when he is already old?", he didn't ask can a baby go back where it just came from....
There is no Biblical evidence for sprinkling babies on the head with drops of water and calling it baptism, this is so twisted by a few scriptures to look that way, but I totally disagree that it's worthwhile as in calling it Baptism, and who invented confirmation anyways, I haven't seen Jesus asking me to do it, if i got baptised as a baby...
Which for the record I was Christened, as my parents didn't know any better, when my Mum was introduced to the truth, her and I were Baptised as consenting adults completely nulling what was done out of tradition.

There have been many baptisms. The symbol of baptism represents a change and also ceremonial cleansing.

The Hebrews coming out of Egypt were "baptized" in the Red Sea, a baptism of change from slavery to freedom, and was symbolic of the Freedom the Redeemed find in Christ.

The priests were "baptized" by washing their hands and feet before entering the Tabernacle, as a ceremonial cleansing.

Before the priests offered sacrifice, they were baptized by sprinkling with blood to purify them and was symbolic of the washing of the blood of Christ.

Nowhere in Scripture do you see a description of total emersion, though total emersion is not unorthodox.

But here is the baptism that counts;

1 Peter 3;

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

 

[Jig]

There have been many baptisms. The symbol of baptism represents a change and also ceremonial cleansing.

The Hebrews coming out of Egypt were "baptized" in the Red Sea, a baptism of change from slavery to freedom, and was symbolic of the Freedom the Redeemed find in Christ.

The priests were "baptized" by washing their hands and feet before entering the Tabernacle, as a ceremonial cleansing.

Before the priests offered sacrifice, they were baptized by sprinkling with blood to purify them and was symbolic of the washing of the blood of Christ.

.

These all might represent baptism, but are not baptism in themselves. I also have my doubts on the sprinkling of blood as considered baptism. This is a opinion.

 

[ArohaB]

"He that believes and is Baptised.."
"Confess with thy mouth..."
There's countless scripture that say we are to choose Jesus, not have him chosen for us.
You can sprinkle all you want, but that doesn't guarantee that that child is going to choose Christ for himself, and even then, you may have misguided the child to think they're already baptised when they were sprinkled and therefore, are not required to make their choice in dying with Christ.

We are all accountable to choosing Christ for ourselves, not someone else assuming it for us. We can teach a child about what's necessary so they can have a decent understanding with which to make their own decision when they are old enough, but to sprinkle them of our own accord goes against free will, even God doesn't Baptise us without our permission, who are we as parents to overide our children when God doesn't even do that to us, he shows us the way but we decide, so we should do with our children, not take it upon ourselves to dunk them... God has never done this to us.

 

[Melethiel]

And here's the crux of the matter...when you believe that instead of you choosing Christ, Christ chooses you, and that baptism is the means of that forgiveness, not a human act but God's act, there is not reason not to baptize infants.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

These all might represent baptism, but are not baptism in themselves. I also have my doubts on the sprinkling of blood as considered baptism. This is a opinion.

Scripture calls them baptisms.

For instance, Scripture talks of the Hebrews being baptized in the Red Sea, though they never touched water.

1 Corinthians 10;

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food,



Scripture talks of Noah and his wife and children being baptized in the flood, though they never touched water.

1 Peter 3;
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


Jesus even spoke of His death as being a "baptism".

Matthew 20:23
So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”

 

[ArohaB]

And here's the crux of the matter...when you believe that instead of you choosing Christ, Christ chooses you, and that baptism is the means of that forgiveness, not a human act but God's act, there is not reason not to baptize infants.

Of course Christ chooses us first, (For God so loved the world)... But look at the different people that he called, some of them answered his call and others "walked away sad", so not everyone chooses him back.

 

[ArohaB]

Scripture talks of Noah and his wife and children being baptized in the flood, though they never touched water.

His children were all grown up with wives of their own...

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I'm afraid too many get hung up on the word itself instead of what the word means in the contexts used, and what the entirety of Scripture says of baptism and what it symbolizes.

As Peter says, it's not the washing of the filth off the body(water baptism) that saves, but the cleansing of the conscience towards Christ, which is only accomplished by the Regenerative Work of the Holy Spirit in bringing the one who was dead in sins and trespasses to life in Christ.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Ever talked to the Eastern Orthodox? That is exactly how I was baptized. As an infant, immersed in water.

You know what an infant does when fully immersed in water?

They take a deep breath and hold it with their mouth closed.

Infants can swim under water too, like a fish.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

His children were all grown up with wives of their own...

You totally missed the point of what baptism symbolizes. That is common amoung the cast iron literalists.

 

[ArohaB]

I'm afraid too many get hung up on the word itself instead of what the word means in the contexts used, and what the entirety of Scripture says of baptism and what it symbolizes.

As Peter says, it's not the washing of the filth off the body(water baptism) that saves, but the cleansing of the conscience towards Christ, which is only accomplished by the Regenerative Work of the Holy Spirit in bringing the one who was dead in sins and trespasses to life in Christ.

I agree with you entirely here which is why an infant doesn't get sprinkled, how do they know they are cleaning their consciences??????????

 

[ArohaB]

You totally missed the point of what baptism symbolizes. That is common amoung the cast iron literalists.

Name calling only boxes people into an opinion that you have formed of them, so i'll thank you to refrain.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

His children were all grown up with wives of their own...

By the way, this is a Christian Only thread.

As a Christadelphian you are not even supposed to post on a Christian Only thread.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Name calling only boxes people into an opinion that you have formed of them, so i'll thank you to refrain.

That's not name calling, it's a clasification of people who use a narrow and rigid hermenuetic that is not Biblical.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I agree with you entirely here which is why an infant doesn't get sprinkled, how do they know they are cleaning their consciences??????????

Infants are sprinkled because the Promise is for "you and your children", and just as the Covenant was sealed with Abraham in circumcision, there is continuity between the sealing of the Covenants from circumcision to baptizing infants.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

In the NT when believers professed Christ, they and their households were baptized, including infants.

 

[Jig]

In the NT when believers professed Christ, they and their households were baptized, including infants.

It does say household, but it doesnt say infants. One may conclude infants are a part of a household but so are the family pets. Did they baptize these as well? No, because that makes little sense. Same with the infants.

Look at John 4:50-53 same with Acts 18:8
50Jesus said to him, "Go; your son lives." The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and started off. 51As he was now going down, his slaves met him, saying that his son was living. 52So he inquired of them the hour when he began to get better. Then they said to him, "Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him." 53So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said to him, "Your son lives"; and he himself believed and his whole household.

Does this mean even the infants believed? Hmmmm.....

Acts 10:1-2
1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Does this mean the infants also feared God? Hmmmm.....

I guess household doesn't always mean EVERYONE including infants....looks like it means everyone of understanding to me.