Should flag burners lose citizenship?

[Markus6]

No, it's the act and the motive. You can protest the government in a correct way, ie discussion, voting, letters to elected reps, etc... You can burn the flag respectfully in non-protest as a burial.

Those are normal parts of the democratic process, not methods of protest. What about marching, and sit-ins. Those have a pedigree of gaining needed rights.

 

[Markus6]

No, it's the act and the motive. You can protest the government in a correct way, ie discussion, voting, letters to elected reps, etc... You can burn the flag respectfully in non-protest as a burial.

Those are normal parts of the democratic process, not methods of protest. What about marching, and sit-ins. Those have a pedigree of gaining needed rights.

 

[Speedwell]

You love it so much that you burn it's flag?

I would, if I thought it would be an effective protest of an unjust war or other criminal government adventure. What America should stand for is more important than a piece of cloth.

 

[Chesterton]

If you insist: I will not leave the country I love because I don't want to see it entirely taken over by people like you.

Very dramatic. Deserves a slow clap.

 

[Belk]

I don't think that's protesting.

What is your reasoning that it is not protesting?

 

[Speedwell]

Very dramatic. Deserves a slow clap.

LOL! Well, you did ask.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

No, it's the act and the motive.

It's obviously not the act if the exact same act of destroying a flag by fire is okay in a different context. It's the intention you don't like. You just don't like people protesting in ways you don't personally approve of.

Well, tough.

You can protest the government in a correct way, ie discussion, voting, letters to elected reps, etc...

And of course, the correct way to protest is one that doesn't personally upset LouisBooth. That's the standard that all protests should be measured by before they can be approved for use in our free society.

You can burn the flag respectfully in non-protest as a burial.

Or you can burn it disrespectfully, in protest. There is no requirement to be respectful. Sure, it's nice but sometimes, people and things don't automatically deserve respect and people should be free to show that.

I prefer honesty over feigned respect.

I have no problem with protesting the government, but it's quite dishonest to try and put words in my mouth, and even more so to try and create a strawman.

It seems you do have a problem with protest when that protest is aimed at things you personally hold dear, like the flag. You are welcome to be offended by the act, but you are not welcome to let your offense override the right to free expression we all have in this country.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I don't think that's protesting.

But I do.

Who are you to tell me it's not?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

But I do.

Who are you to tell me it's not?

I think it is too. As I am sure you already know, I have a very different opinion on the American flag, which extends to my personal view of America itself. I have never tried to hide my personal distaste for either one. I have seen an American flag being burnt in a protest of disdain for America and I felt a sense of gratification watching it burn. I have no respect for the American flag whatsoever and I have no problem with someone burning one in protest, respectfully or disrespectfully.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

If you protest by showing respect to the flag, by definition, it's not a protest. You're right, problem solved.

In my scenario, no one is showing respect to the flag. They simply set it on fire and gave the appearance of a ceremonial retirement to circumvent your pointless law.

Heck, there's even a couple ways I can think to put out the fire to really drive home the point of the protest but I'll leave those to your imagination.

and I pointed out the flaw in this statement. the Nation ISN'T like the poll.

Fair enough. It would not surprise me in the least if there is a majority of Americans who hold a piece of cloth to a higher level than the individual rights that piece of cloth is meant to represent.

If you wish to protest the government, do it through elections and your vote and the process,

Voting is not generally understood to be protest unless we are talking specifically about protest votes. People can take part in the democratic process and vote and whatnot but they are also free to not do those things. They are also free to publicly raise their concerns against the government and use its symbols to show their disapproval of the country. These are rights people have in our free society, even if not everyone agrees with them.

not burning the flag

Why not? There hasn't been any real reason given as to why the flag is off limits, other than it is disrespectful.

People are free to be disrespectful.

, or unless you're a hypocrite, leave and cease to be under those protections.

Why leave the country when I have to right to stay and change it?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Why leave the country when I have to right to stay and change it?

It is ironic that the American ideals of freedom and liberty are quickly forgotten or completely disregarded when the American flag is burnt in protest or someone refuses to stand for the national anthem or refuses to recite the pledge of allegiance. And whenever someone disrespects America in some form then the demand for that person to leave the country quickly follows.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I think it is too. As I am sure you already know, I have a very different opinion on the American flag, which extends to my personal view of America itself. I have never tried to hide my personal distaste for either one. I have seen an American flag being burnt in a protest of disdain for America and I felt a sense of gratification watching it burn. I have no respect for the American flag whatsoever and I have no problem with someone burning one in protest, respectfully or disrespectfully.

And I have no problem with you feeling that way, VTC. Really, it wouldn't make sense any other way given you and your people's history with the US. One thing I hope you give the US at least some credit for is the right you have to voice your opinion against the country without fear of punishment from the government. Some countries will gladly hold the state up as being more important than the individual or their rights. As long as I'm living here, I'll see to it that sentiment never takes hold in our country.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

And I have no problem with you feeling that way, VTC. Really, it wouldn't make sense any other way given you and your people's history with the US. One thing I hope you give the US at least some credit for is the right you have to voice your opinion against the country without fear of punishment from the government. Some countries will gladly hold the state up as being more important than the individual or their rights. As long as I'm living here, I'll see to it that sentiment never takes hold in our country.

Honestly, it would not make a difference to me whether the government permitted flag burning or not. I seriously doubt it would make a difference in the response considering how the government has always treated Indigenous people in the first place.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Since you're open to suggestions, here's a sensible one: why don't you move to a better country? One that does fewer things needing to be protested?

Look, we get that you're anti-protest, but you you really think that running away is the answer?

As someone who loves this country and is saddened to see the freedoms it once stood for die one by one, I can think of no better way to mourn than with a public funeral... by cremation.

Who are you to tell me otherwise?

I didn't say they were done because Obama was offended. That was just you putting words in my mouth again.

All I said was the the "drone strikes" comment was a red herring -- you've confirmed that.

I don't recall that being your argument, but I'm not going to read through the thread to see. Do you want to start the argument up again fresh? If so, it doesn't belong in this thread because, as I said, I don't think flag burning has to do with PC.

Since I was courteous enough to include a link to the original thread, you really have no excuse, except, by your own admission, your own unwillingness to do the necessary legwork.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You love it so much that you burn it's flag?

Cremation is a perfectly acceptable funeral practice... burning a symbol of the freedoms which have died.

 

[TLK Valentine]

ignorance of the law is no excuse. Legal action: owning a gun Illegal motivation: conspire to commit an act of terrorism. It's why we have the "no fly list" too.

We're not talking ignroance of the law -- we're talking legal vs. illegal. Terrorism is illegal whether you do it yourself or conspire with others to do it. There's no such thing as a "conspiracy" to own a gun.

Seriously -- you don't know this?

Not at all, they don't burn it in protest.

Sounds like you don't want to outlaw the actual burning, you want to outlaw the act of protesting in that manner. That sound about right?

 

[Chesterton]

Look, we get that you're anti-protest, but you you really think that running away is the answer?

As someone who loves this country and is saddened to see the freedoms it once stood for die one by one, I can think of no better way to mourn than with a public funeral... by cremation.

Who are you to tell me otherwise?

It's a totally fair question. If I lived in a place where freedoms were dying one by one I'd want to run away to a freer place. And so you say it's speech, and it's art and now it's a funeral service. You're kind of all over the map with attempts to legitimize it.

All I said was the the "drone strikes" comment was a red herring -- you've confirmed that.

Tell that to the guy who's had a missile land on his head.

Since I was courteous enough to include a link to the original thread, you really have no excuse, except, by your own admission, your own unwillingness to do the necessary legwork.

We can talk about whatever you want.

 

[Belk]

It's a totally fair question. If I lived in a place where freedoms were dying one by one I'd want to run away to a freer place. And so you say it's speech, and it's art and now it's a funeral service. You're kind of all over the map with attempts to legitimize it.


Tell that to the guy who's had a missile land on his head.

We can talk about whatever you want.

So with Obama "shredding" the constitution you decided to leave the country and ran away to someplace with more freedoms?

 

[Chesterton]

So with Obama "shredding" the constitution you decided to leave the country and ran away to someplace with more freedoms?

I think you're confusing me with someone else, I've never said anything like that about Obama.

 

[Belk]

I think you're confusing me with someone else, I've never said anything like that about Obama.

Oh good! So you agree that we have not lost any freedoms under Obama or previous administrations?