Should Christians play Dungeons and Dragons?

[dms1972]

Never seen that hypothetical situation take place in all my years of gaming.

I think 1 Corinthians 10 (the last part of the chapter) applies to this situation. If someone like you has misgivings about it then they probably should stay away from it since they are sinning against their conscience.

I have edited my earlier post slightly: I was refering to those who dismiss concerns about some of these games that magic in any case is not real, so no harm can come, ie. I am refering to those who would suggest actual witchcraft never has any results. In the game casting a spell is not real practicing of witchcraft I grant. But I think the premise of that argument is faulty.

By hypothetical situation do you mean someone moving from the game into practicing witchcraft? I would agree that would be unlikely just from the influence of a game that is made up.

Do you think any of these games has an underlying worldview or philosophy, or view of good and evil that might influence players beyond the game?

 

[dms1972]

Here's a thought for us all to ponder over: As I'm playing this nifty little D&D game app on my mobile phone, when I use a "magic-user" character to zap an opposing monster, am I indulging in an actual casting of a bona-fide spell, Wiccan or Pagan in nature, or otherwise?

What do I mean here by the prior question above? I mean that I think we should analyze this issue better by applying some biblical hermeneutics, and then we should ask ourselves:

Is the playing of D&D -- such as it is -- an activity that may or may not be decided upon within the bounds of conscience which we find written of by Paul in Romans 14?

AND/OR

Is the playing of D&D more along the lines of something that qualifies as the kind of spiritual junk which Paul warns against participating in in 1 Corinthians 10, since it could be a form of pagan idolatry?​

With this possible differentiation we may make between the two fields of spiritual discernment that Paul describes, that of matters of taste and viewpoint versus matters of bona-fide holiness, are we to evaluate the nature of the D&D game as being unholy even when it doesn't actually pull in and use any utilization of "real" spells any more than does Doctor Strange in a comic-book or than does Gandalf in one of the Hobbit movies? To my mind, the answer is that D&D doesn't include any actual use of magic, especially not any that would be considered as such by Wiccans, Druids or any others today who indeed claim to indulge in authentic occult practices.

In the case of games that do not pull in or utilize "real" spells, or make reference to actual spirits from occultism (in other words games like the Zelda games) - I would say its a Romans 14 issue, not a holiness issue, but might depend what the goal of the game is, and the whether its content is predominantly dark and sinister. Games like as the one I mentioned: Heavy on the Magick, in which you seem to have to seek assistance to complete the game from spirits whose names would be familiar to occultists - I would say that is a holiness issue. What do you think?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I have edited my post slightly: I was refering to those who dismiss concerns about some of these games that magic in any case is not real, so no harm can come, ie. I am refering to those who would suggest actual witchcraft never has any results. In the game casting a spell is not real practicing of witchcraft I grant. But I think the premise of that argument is faulty.

By hypothetical situation do you mean someone moving from the game into practicing witchcraft? I would agree that would be unlikely just from the influence of a game that is made up.

Do you think any of these games has an underlying worldview or philosophy, or view of good and evil that might influence players beyond the game?

Dms1972 in my experience playing role playing games a good 40 years the biggest danger to the Christian Faith is not any kind of occult theme in role playing games but rather the substandard Faith professed by many "Christians", as I said in an earlier thread I posted a few months back.

Salvationism, Christianity as an ideology

I've been working on doing some kind of web series on the theme of Christianity as a "Journey of Faith". On that general theme, the first topic scheduled to be covered revolves around some unhappy experiences attending some Christian parochial schools. Looking back, I believe that some Christians see their faith as a kind of ideology, essentially an ideology that saves their soul via professing(or knowing) the right doctrine about salvation, works etc. at the time of death, but its one that sort of allows them to something of a misanthrope, or Pharisee providing they avoiding saying or perhaps doing certain things (based on very specific Bible passages) that might break their "salvation warranty" so to speak.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In the case of games that do not pull in or utilize "real" spells, or make reference to actual spirits from occultism (in other words games like the Zelda games) - I would say its a Romans 14 issue, not a holiness issue, but might depend what the goal of the game is, and the whether its content is predominantly dark and sinister. Games like as the one I mentioned: Heavy on the Magick, in which you seem to have to seek assistance to complete the game from spirits whose names would be familiar to occultists - I would say that is a holiness issue. What do you think?

Yes, good point. I was about to say something along similar lines. I think we need to assess each "game" individually and decide whether or not it is tainted by satanic chutzpah, or that it can be seen as just a completely fictional idea, presented for our entertainment.

So, like you, I'd differentiate between my own playing of the little D&D game app I have from the various other kinds of games that people have made. I'd play my D&D app game without much hesitation because I don't perceive that I, through it, would in any way participate in something that is truly evil and antithetical to my faith; however, I would not only hesitate but I also would actually feel some revulsion if someone set a Ouija 'game' in front of me and said, "Hey, bud, let's play!!!"

 

[Tyler52]

)

 

[Aussie Pete]

A. inappropriate content is watched because people like to lust. In other words the people watching inappropriate content are doing it in order to sin. If you play something like Pokemon, that is not necessary your intension.
B. You may be right, I'm not really into the occult (although I used to watch a lot of anime (kind of on the fence about watching it at the moment) and have seen horror movies) however, your weaknesses are not the same as everyone else's. Not everyone is seduced by the same stuff. One person might just as easily seduced by action movies, or sci-fi.

Edit: that being said, you may also be completely right and I might be wrong. That being said may I have some proof about your exorcist claim?

I was at the drive in with a friend, watching a different movie. I kept sensing something like a prodding in my spirit. I did not know what was showing on the other screen. I turned to look and it was the actress manifesting. I could not hear, obviously, but I could see and I wished I had not. It was not an act.

How many people are deceived by their own arrogance? I know a former drug addict who thought he could control his drug use. No, the drugs controlled him. Steve Jobs thought he could defeat cancer with unconventional means. By the time he realised it was not working it was too late. People drink and drive, and do all kinds of risky activities sure in their own minds that they safe. Except they are not.

With many things its "chicken and egg". inappropriate content incites lust, so an innocent look can easily draw someone into that terrible cycle. Satan's ploy is still to showcase the "good" of a thing he wants to use as a trap. It is, as James says, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. If he can suck people in with any of those means, he's happy.

 

[The Liturgist]

He even skips church to play it most of the time.

That would be a problem, but it is not specific to that game.

Now I have to admit I was always creeped out by Dungeons and Dragons, and never got into the RPG “thing.”

 

[Tyler52]

)

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was just wondering if it was considered satanic or witchcraft for a Christian to play D&D. My Christian boyfriend plays it and some of the characters he describes are pretty creepy. He even skips church to play it most of the time. He says it's not evil and I want to believe him, because he is a Christian, but I need other opinions on this. I'm curious.

D&D is what's known as a tabletop or pen and paper RPG (Role-Playing Game). Players create characters following the rules laid out in the rule books, so with stats, skills, ability scores, and different abilities and features. The game basically boils down to cooperative story-telling between the "DM" (Dungeon Master, or sometimes called a GM for Game Master in other game systems) and the players. The DM explains the setting, gives the players challenges, etc; and players have to overcome challenges by being creative and using dice.

In the end it's just another tabletop game, people sitting around a table, playing dice, and in this case also telling a story together with their friends.

It's not evil, it's just a game. But in the 1980's there was a huge panic against it because it was claimed that people playing it were getting involved in the occult or other nonsense. And so some people who went through the panic era of the 80's never really educated themselves and so you still get some claiming it's evil or satanic. But then there are people who also think Harry Potter, the Lord of the Rings, and just about anything with fantasy in it is "evil".

Now, having said that. Skipping church to play a game isn't good. But this would be just as true if one was skipping church to play baseball.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Except it glorifies demons and leads people into the occult. Same with Harry Potter and such.

With all due respect, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'd avoid it. A lot of folks will argue that it's ok, it's innocent, etc. But if it's rife with demonic and occult imagery, is proving to be kind of addictive, and is causing him to skip church, avoid it.

It's deceptively mis-leading

In Scripture, communing with the dead, as Saul sought to do at Endor, provokes YHWH's Wrath from heaven, leading to one's downfall

But in D&D, Clerics can engage in all manner of necromancies, without incurring (in the game) any Wrath from any Supreme Being

D&D imagines all sorts of magic & witchcraft and what not...but makes no allowances for YHWH Elohim

It deceives people into denying & underestimating God in heaven

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's deceptively mis-leading

In Scripture, communing with the dead, as Saul sought to do at Endor, provokes YHWH's Wrath from heaven, leading to one's downfall

But in D&D, Clerics can engage in all manner of necromancies, without incurring (in the game) any Wrath from any Supreme Being

D&D imagines all sorts of magic & witchcraft and what not...but makes no allowances for YHWH Elohim

It deceives people into denying & underestimating God in heaven

I'll be honest here, I'd consider it pretty blasphemous if one were to try and reduce the real, living God into a game mechanic.

There's the real world, and then there's fantasy.

In the real world there's no such thing as magic, orcs, elves, and mithril armor. In the real world there's no such thing as zombies, vampires, or elemental planes. These are all make-believe fantasy fluff. In a fictional world an evil wizard can raise an army of zombies, and heroes can take their magical long-swords and fireballs to save the kingdom of Blahblahblah from the machinations of BigBadEvilGuy.

It's a work of fiction. It doesn't exist. It is a game.

In the same way there is no Middle Earth, there are no hobbits. Saruman doesn't live in a tower commanding armies of orcs, and sentient tree-people don't guard forests. There is no magic ring that turns hobbits invisible. There is no Mordor, or Sauron.

There is no magic wardrobe that children can enter into to find a magical world of talking animals.

There is no magical school of wizardry where kids can speak fake Latin and cause pyrotechnics to come out of sticks.

I, personally, like to keep reality and fantasy firmly distinct and separate. It's the reason why I don't confuse the Three Musketeers, the Time Machine, Moby Dick, 1984 with the real world. Because these are works of fiction, and the real world is real.

It will forever boggle my mind that people can't seem to differentiate reality from fantasy.

A an evil cleric who works with zombies in a a work of fiction may not face consequences from the REAL God who made heaven and earth because that evil cleric does not exist. It is a make-believe character. We also don't see God smiting the land of Mordor in Tolkien's works, even though Mordor is ruled by Sauron, a fallen Valar, and lieutenent to Morgoth--in other words Sauron was effectively a kind of fallen angel, or demon. There is a land in Middle Earth ruled by a literal devil. Why doesn't God smite Sauron? Because that's not the story. It's just a story. It's a made up, make-believe story.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'll be honest here, I'd consider it pretty blasphemous if one were to try and reduce the real, living God into a game mechanic.

There's the real world, and then there's fantasy.

In the real world there's no such thing as magic, orcs, elves, and mithril armor. In the real world there's no such thing as zombies, vampires, or elemental planes. These are all make-believe fantasy fluff. In a fictional world an evil wizard can raise an army of zombies, and heroes can take their magical long-swords and fireballs to save the kingdom of Blahblahblah from the machinations of BigBadEvilGuy.

It's a work of fiction. It doesn't exist. It is a game.

In the same way there is no Middle Earth, there are no hobbits. Saruman doesn't live in a tower commanding armies of orcs, and sentient tree-people don't guard forests. There is no magic ring that turns hobbits invisible. There is no Mordor, or Sauron.

There is no magic wardrobe that children can enter into to find a magical world of talking animals.

There is no magical school of wizardry where kids can speak fake Latin and cause pyrotechnics to come out of sticks.

I, personally, like to keep reality and fantasy firmly distinct and separate. It's the reason why I don't confuse the Three Musketeers, the Time Machine, Moby Dick, 1984 with the real world. Because these are works of fiction, and the real world is real.

It will forever boggle my mind that people can't seem to differentiate reality from fantasy.

A an evil cleric who works with zombies in a a work of fiction may not face consequences from the REAL God who made heaven and earth because that evil cleric does not exist. It is a make-believe character. We also don't see God smiting the land of Mordor in Tolkien's works, even though Mordor is ruled by Sauron, a fallen Valar, and lieutenent to Morgoth--in other words Sauron was effectively a kind of fallen angel, or demon. There is a land in Middle Earth ruled by a literal devil. Why doesn't God smite Sauron? Because that's not the story. It's just a story. It's a made up, make-believe story.

-CryptoLutheran

it's made up make-believe that belittles YHWH-Elohim, God of creation, by removing Him and His decrees from the game mechanics

If you played D&D according to the Bible, sinful cities would be destroyed by "fire from heaven", clerics practicing necromancy would be driven insane and lose all their experience points, and ultimately more "fire from heaven" would destroy the game universe along with all neutral & evil player characters

it's made-up fiction...at direct odds with Biblical revelation

you think you can escape the "Long Arm Of The Law"?

Job 34:21-22
For His eyes are on the ways of man, and He sees his every step. There is no darkness or deep shadow where the workers of iniquity can hide.

Psalm 139:7
Where can I go to escape Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence?

Isaiah 29:15
Woe to those who dig deep to hide their plans from YHWH. In darkness they do their works and say, "Who sees us, and who will know?"

Jeremiah 23:24
Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?" declares YHWH. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares YHWH.

Hebrews 4:13
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.​

Ultimately,

Matthew 5:19
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
​

I myself didn't advocate anyone try to belittle the Bible, and try to escape into some fictional head-in-the-sand fantasy land wherein one tries to ignore God in heaven

 

[ViaCrucis]

it's made up make-believe that belittles YHWH-Elohim, God of creation, by removing Him and His decrees from the game mechanics

If you played D&D according to the Bible, sinful cities would be destroyed by "fire from heaven", clerics practicing necromancy would be driven insane and lose all their experience points, and ultimately more "fire from heaven" would destroy the game universe along with all neutral & evil player characters

it's made-up fiction...at direct odds with Biblical revelation

you think you can escape the "Long Arm Of The Law"?

Job 34:21-22
For His eyes are on the ways of man, and He sees his every step. There is no darkness or deep shadow where the workers of iniquity can hide.

Psalm 139:7
Where can I go to escape Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence?

Isaiah 29:15
Woe to those who dig deep to hide their plans from YHWH. In darkness they do their works and say, "Who sees us, and who will know?"

Jeremiah 23:24
Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?" declares YHWH. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares YHWH.

Hebrews 4:13
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.​

Ultimately,

Matthew 5:19
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
​

I myself didn't advocate anyone try to belittle the Bible, and try to escape into some fictional head-in-the-sand fantasy land wherein one tries to ignore God in heaven

Do you apply this reasoning to every game? Like, how about Monopoly? Risk? Go Fish?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Do you apply this reasoning to every game? Like, how about Monopoly? Risk? Go Fish?

-CryptoLutheran

LOL great minds think a like. 2 days ago I mentioned how arbitrary Christians are.

I nearly brought up the exact same point yesterday or the previous day with some of the same examples except I would have added Chess, where the imaginary goal is to assassinate a King! But yeah it's OK to drive people into bankruptcy in Monopoly etc.

This anti- D&D crusade really seems like Alexis de Tocqueville's "Tyranny of the Majority" where all the regular cool kids pick on the role playing game nerds for being weird.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

It's called using your imagination people. There's nothing really wrong with it. otherwise Milton would never have written Paradise Lost I suppose.

 

[Tyler52]

I was at the drive in with a friend, watching a different movie. I kept sensing something like a prodding in my spirit. I did not know what was showing on the other screen. I turned to look and it was the actress manifesting. I could not hear, obviously, but I could see and I wished I had not. It was not an act.

How many people are deceived by their own arrogance? I know a former drug addict who thought he could control his drug use. No, the drugs controlled him. Steve Jobs thought he could defeat cancer with unconventional means. By the time he realised it was not working it was too late. People drink and drive, and do all kinds of risky activities sure in their own minds that they safe. Except they are not.

With many things its "chicken and egg". inappropriate content incites lust, so an innocent look can easily draw someone into that terrible cycle. Satan's ploy is still to showcase the "good" of a thing he wants to use as a trap. It is, as James says, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. If he can suck people in with any of those means, he's happy.

Define manifesting

 

[Aussie Pete]

Define manifesting

Good question. Watch the faces of some people, such as some top tennis players. You will see their faces contorting, foul language and racquet smashing. They seem to lose all control. It seems like some are consumed by hate. After the outburst, they seem normal again. That's the evil spirit letting them calm down.

I knew a woman who was a former drug addict, supposedly a Christian. One time her face was like a mouse under under a table cloth as an evil spirit manifested. She never did get delivered. She ended up bankrupting her family through a gambling addiction.

You hear often of people losing control, men beating up their wives, and being terribly sorry afterwards.
"I don't know what came over me." I know what came over them.

Some people have the gift of discernment. Paul got provoked by a woman saying that they were servants of the most high God. What could be wrong with that? Yet Paul saw the evil spirit and cast it out.

 

[dms1972]

I'll be honest here, I'd consider it pretty blasphemous if one were to try and reduce the real, living God into a game mechanic.

There's the real world, and then there's fantasy.

In the real world there's no such thing as magic, orcs, elves, and mithril armor. In the real world there's no such thing as zombies, vampires, or elemental planes. These are all make-believe fantasy fluff. In a fictional world an evil wizard can raise an army of zombies, and heroes can take their magical long-swords and fireballs to save the kingdom of Blahblahblah from the machinations of BigBadEvilGuy.

It's a work of fiction. It doesn't exist. It is a game.

In the same way there is no Middle Earth, there are no hobbits. Saruman doesn't live in a tower commanding armies of orcs, and sentient tree-people don't guard forests. There is no magic ring that turns hobbits invisible. There is no Mordor, or Sauron.

There is no magic wardrobe that children can enter into to find a magical world of talking animals.

There is no magical school of wizardry where kids can speak fake Latin and cause pyrotechnics to come out of sticks.

I, personally, like to keep reality and fantasy firmly distinct and separate. It's the reason why I don't confuse the Three Musketeers, the Time Machine, Moby Dick, 1984 with the real world. Because these are works of fiction, and the real world is real.

It will forever boggle my mind that people can't seem to differentiate reality from fantasy.

A an evil cleric who works with zombies in a a work of fiction may not face consequences from the REAL God who made heaven and earth because that evil cleric does not exist. It is a make-believe character. We also don't see God smiting the land of Mordor in Tolkien's works, even though Mordor is ruled by Sauron, a fallen Valar, and lieutenent to Morgoth--in other words Sauron was effectively a kind of fallen angel, or demon. There is a land in Middle Earth ruled by a literal devil. Why doesn't God smite Sauron? Because that's not the story. It's just a story. It's a made up, make-believe story.

-CryptoLutheran

I have never played it so I don't know how immersive it can get? The argument about the breakdown between fantasy and reality is that for some kids playing it may become a sort of psychodrama to work through personal issues, and that there might be the potential to lose touch with reality for some. Or that the symptoms of kids who are pre-disposed to mental illness are manifested by the game. Not being a psychologist I don't know how likely that is. I suspect even if acting it out with friends and with costumes etc. its still very hard to lose touch with reality. A choice would have to be made by an individual for fantasy over reality - a game can't force you to do that.

There was a TV movie made about it in the 80s, a sort of cautionary tale. One of the characters was continuing in character after the game. The film suggested threats in real life (eg. being a harrassed by street thieves) appeared to him as monsters. I am pretty dubious about that sort of thing ever happening to most players unless they also are taking mind altering drugs.

 

[Tyler52]

Good question. Watch the faces of some people, such as some top tennis players. You will see their faces contorting, foul language and racquet smashing. They seem to lose all control. It seems like some are consumed by hate. After the outburst, they seem normal again. That's the evil spirit letting them calm down.

I knew a woman who was a former drug addict, supposedly a Christian. One time her face was like a mouse under under a table cloth as an evil spirit manifested. She never did get delivered. She ended up bankrupting her family through a gambling addiction.

You hear often of people losing control, men beating up their wives, and being terribly sorry afterwards.
"I don't know what came over me." I know what came over them.

Some people have the gift of discernment. Paul got provoked by a woman saying that they were servants of the most high God. What could be wrong with that? Yet Paul saw the evil spirit and cast it out.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with that theology

James 1:14-15 ESV
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

It is our own desire that entices us to sin. Demons may be involved in the process, but they can't control Christians, nor do they posses all non believers. People have free will, if not then they couldn't except Christ. Also I'm not here to debate Calvinism, but if you are one here is something to think about
James 1:13 ESV
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
God doesn't make people do evil, and Satan can't make us do anything, so who is the main cause of our sin? It is us.

Edit: in no way am I saying that demons can't tempt people, however people choose most of the time.

I think