Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Divide · Oct 12, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
Why don't they compare? Angels, humans and animals are all spirits. Humans and animals are souls, which is to say spirits breathing in flesh, while they live. When we die, we are simply spirits loosed of flesh, and of the same nature (if not status) as angels.

So why does it not apply?

Easy Brother, because they do not have souls! Animals do not have souls. You wont be able to substantiate that with any scripture, that they do.

What makes you think that we have the same nature as Angels? Post a scripture which says that Angels were created in the image and likeness of God. I've never seen one. There's scriptures that says that we are a little lower than the Angels, but I think it means in the flesh. Scripture also says that at some point, we will actually judge the Angels...so the implication is that we were created to be or at least at some point will be higher than the Angels.

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Divide said:
Easy Brother, because they do not have souls! Animals do not have souls. You wont be able to substantiate that with any scripture, that they do.

Do you read Hebrew?

Divide · Oct 12, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
Look, it's very straightforward. Jesus said very specific things, and because there are four gospels they are repeated over and over again, in triplicate or quadruplicate. What Jesus talked about was DOING things, and Jesus talked about HOW to be forgiven sin. Jesus is Lord. If somebody is going to preach at me, I am doing him a favor by telling him that I find Jesus persuasive, so preach at me using the words of Jesus. That is, after all, what I do. I use the words of Jesus to answer everything. Obviously that is where I place my treasure.

No, I sure wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth and assume a bunch of stuff about me. I didn't say that you were ignorant, or that Paul is Jesus, or insult you. I just don't want to argue with you because you're not being open minded and do seem to be coming from a position of 'well you're obviously right and I should accept that nothing in the scriptures are true except what Jesus said.' (< I did just say that).
Do you believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God? (It doesn't sound like it. That God isn't mighty enough to get a good copy of His word into your hands throughout the centuries? That His word will never pass away? ...) The way I figure it, if He can, then we should accept it all. If any of it is true, then it's all true. If any of it is false then all of it's false.

Answer those, and then, because I am (open minded and academically considerate for the sake of discussion) I will try to approach this from Jesus's words since you seem to at least respect His words. Ok?

Do you respect Jesus's words and teachings, and are you willing to at least accept all of Jesus's words, without picking and choosing what He Himself says for us to do?

Divide · Oct 12, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
Do you read Hebrew?

Not directly, but I am well versed in the use of the Concordance and the BlueletterBible.com which is a free online Concordance.

I gotta run off to work now, running a little behind, but I'll be back tonight after work.

DennisTate · Oct 12, 2017

Divide said:
No because they're animals.
Fallen angels and demons are not animals. They don't compare.

But apparently some cherubs.... can appear like a horse (perhaps a horse with wings).

Psalms 18:10 "And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind."

Revelation 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

DennisTate · Oct 12, 2017

JWO said:
"For we wrestle not against FLESH AND BLOOD"

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, SCRIBES AND PHARISEES...
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets,
and wise men, and scribes:
and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
and persecute them from city to city:

And even Pastor Rick Joyner... admits that
he himself fell into ways of using words that he was shown in a dream
was actually the work of the Accuser.

I wonder was there rejoicing in front of the angels as Pastor Rick came to this
realization?

Could the rejoicing being done be by the Father....... who Messiah Yeshua - Jesus stated
clearly was greater than him?

Luke 15:10

In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest:

"I never knew that you had done anything like that," I said, surprised.

"I incited men under me to investigate others and do my dirty work. I had them scour the earth to find any error or sin in the life of others to expose them. I became the worst thing that a man can become on the earth-a stumbling block who produced other stumbling blocks. We sowed fear and division throughout the church, all in the name of protecting the truth. In my self-righteousness I was headed for perdition. In His great mercy the Lord allowed me to be struck by a disease that would bring about a slow and humiliating death. Just before I died I came to my senses and repented. I am just thankful to be here at all. I may be one of the least of His here, but it is much more than I deserve. I just could not leave this room until I had a chance to apologize to those of you that I so wronged."

"But you never wronged me," I said.

"Oh, but I did indeed," he replied. "Many of the attacks that came against you were from those whom I had agitated and encouraged in their assaults on others. Even though I may not have personally carried the attacks out, the Lord holds me as responsible as those who did."

"I see. Certainly I forgive you."

I was already beginning to remember how I had done this same thing, even if on a smaller scale. I recalled how I had allowed disgruntled former members of a church to spread their poison about that church without stopping them. I knew that by just allowing them to do this without correcting them I had encouraged them to continue. I remember thinking that this was justified because of the errors of that church. I then began to remember how I had even repeated many of their stories, justifying it by saying it was only to enlist prayers for them. Soon a great flood of other such incidents began to arise in my heart. Again, I was starting to be overwhelmed by the evil and darkness of my own soul.

"I, too, have been a stumbling block!" I wailed, dropping again to my knees. I knew that I deserved death, that I deserved the worst kind of hell. I had never seen such ruthlessness and cruelty as I was now seeing in my own heart.

"And we always comforted ourselves by actually thinking that we were doing God a favor when we attacked His own children," came the understanding voice of this man. "It is good for you to see this here, because you can go back. Please warn my disciples of their impending doom if they do not repent. Many of them are called to be kings here, but if they do not repent they will face the worst judgment of all-that of the stumbling blocks. My humbling disease was grace from God. When I stood before the throne I asked the Lord to send such grace to my disciples. I cannot cross back over to them, but He has allowed me this time with you. Please forgive and release those who have attacked you. They really do not understand that they are doing the work of the Accuser. Thank you for forgiving me, but please also forgive them. It is in your power to retain sins or cover them with love. I entreat you to love those who are now your enemies."

I could hardly hear this man I was so overwhelmed with my own sin. This man was so glorious, pure and obviously now had powers that were not known on the earth. Yet, he was entreating me with a greater humility than I had witnessed before. I felt such love coming from him that I could not imagine refusing him, but even without the impact of his love, I felt far more guilty than anyone could possibly be who was attacking me.

"Certainly I must deserve anything they have done to me, and much more," I replied.

"That is true, but it is not the point here," he entreated. "Everyone on earth is deserving of the second death, but our Savior brought us grace and truth. If we are to do His work we must do everything in both grace and truth. Truth without grace is what the enemy brings when he comes as an 'angel of light.'"

"If I can be delivered from this maybe I will be able to help them," I replied. "But can't you recognize that I am far worse than they could possibly be?"

Phantasman · Oct 12, 2017

Divide said:
So you don't believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Uh, ok I guess. I do, so I guess we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Christ brought the word of God. The Holy Spirit reveals the word of God. I follow the Word of God, heard by flesh through flesh and revealed Spirit through Spirit.

The OT didn't have this, as the Gospel plainly dictates.

DennisTate · Oct 12, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
That's an interesting quote, because Jesus didn't say that. Whence the "as I do"? That's not in the text.

What Luke 14:26 actually says is:
"If anyone is coming to me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he cannot be my disciple."

The Matthew 10:37 version is:
"He who is fond of father or mother above me is not worthy of me. And he who is fond of son or daughter above me is not worthy of me."

Matthew's version of Jesus is easier to take in this regard than Luke's. Matthew's Jesus, taken literally, is a completely acceptable thing. Love God above all - right. That would mean love God more than family.

Luke's version of Jesus is quite a bit harder to take: HATE my father and mother? HATE me wife? HATE my child?

No, Jesus, I will not do that. If you meant that literally, then I cannot follow you, because I will not hate my parents, nor will I hate my wife, nor will I hate my child.

Jesus, if you really meant that, then you are all over the place and inconsistent with yourself, for elsewhere you said to love your neighbor as yourself, and love God above all.

Love God above all? Of course. Did not God give me my parents, and my child too?
But follow Jesus to the point of HATING my parents, wife and child?
No.

Not call my own father "father"? No. That's just silly.

So, there are two examples of things that Jesus said that, if he meant them literally, are outrageous or just foolish, and that I'm not going to accept or do.

I assume, given the preposterousness of a commandment to hate one's own family, or the ridiculousness of the commandment not to call one's own biological father "father", that Jesus used those terms in those preposterous and ridiculous ways as hyperbole, to grab our attention and force us to think about what he's getting at.

Indeed, that's really the only way that those two expressions of Jesus are acceptable at all: as hyperbole. What he is recorded by Matthew is, I take it, the MEANING of his hyperbolic "hate everybody you love". "Don't give undue authority to some spiritual leader" is what I take he meant by "call no man father"; also, remember that you and your father both are spirits created by the Father in heaven, making you both brothers of Jesus by the spirit, if you follow Jesus.

If he actually meant to be taken literally, then I'll take him literally also, and not call anybody the Greek word "father" that he used. Since I call my father the English word "father", I'm not breaking what he literally said.

If he really MEANT that I'm supposed to hate my parents, my wife and my child or I can't be his disciple, then he can go fly a kite, because I won't be anybody's disciple on those terms. They are unacceptable.

My God doesn't ask me to hate my loved ones. He asks me to love everybody, and to love Him even more. That's what I've decided Jesus MEANT by that phrase you misquoted (you added the "like I do" to it).

Well said!

We have got to learn to rebel against exceptionally unwise interpretations of scripture!

A writer named Rick Joyner reports that he was given a visionary dream of heaven in which
he was led to deeper and deeper and deeper levels of understanding of the ways in which he
was still somewhat in the mentality of the Accuser of the Brethren.

I am of the belief that there was rejoicing in front of the angels of heaven as Pastor Rick....
came to deeper levels of repentance....... and I believe he was inspired to write a book so that people like me who have made similar errors over the past forty years could learn from how Pastor Rick learned...........

The Final Quest [English] Rick Joyner

"I have waited eagerly for this meeting," he said.

"You were waiting for me?" I asked. "Why?"

"You are just one of many that I am waiting for. I did not understand until my judgment that you were one that I was called to help, to even disciple, but I rejected you."

"Sir," I protested. "It would have been a great honor to be discipled by you, and I am very thankful for the time that I did have with you, but I was so arrogant I deserved your rejection. I know that my rebellion and pride has kept me from ever having a real spiritual father. This was not your fault, but mine."

"It is true that you were prideful, but that is not why I was offended with you. I was offended because of my insecurity, which made me want to control everyone around me. I was offended that you would not accept everything that I said without questioning it. I then started to look for anything that was wrong with you to justify my rejection. I began to feel that if I could not control you that you would one day embarrass me and my ministry. I esteemed my ministry more than I did the people for whom it was given to me, so I drove many like you away," he said.

With a genuineness that is unknown in the realms of earth, he continued, "All children are rebellious, and think that the world revolves around them. That is why they need parents to raise them. Almost every child will at times bring reproach on his family, but he is still a part of the family. I turned away many of God's own children that he had entrusted to me for getting them safely to maturity. I failed with most of them. Most of them suffered terrible wounds and failures that I could have helped them to avoid. Many of them are now prisoners of the enemy. I built a large organization, and had considerable influence in the church, but the greatest gifts that the Lord trusted to me were the ones who were sent to me for discipline, many of whom I rejected. Had I not been so self-centered and concerned with my own reputation I would be a king here. I was called to one of the highest thrones. All that you have and will accomplish would have been in my heavenly account as well. Instead, much of what I gave my attention to was of very little true eternal significance. What looks good on earth looks very different here. What will make you a king on earth will often be a stumbling block to keep you from being a king here. What will make you a king here is lowly and un-esteemed on earth. Will you forgive me?"

"Of course," I said, quite embarrassed. "But I, too, am in need of your forgiveness. I still think that it was my awkwardness and rebellion that made it difficult for you."

"It is true that you were not perfect, and I discerned some of your problems rightly, but that is never cause for rejection," he replied. "The Lord did not reject the world when He saw its failures. He did not reject me when He saw my sin. He laid down His life for us. It is always the greater who must lay down his life for the lesser. I was more mature. I had more authority than you, but I became like one of the goats in the parable; I rejected the Lord by rejecting you and the others that He sent to me."

As he talked, his words were striking me deeply. I, too, was guilty of everything that he was relenting of. Many young men and women who I had brushed off as not being important enough for my time were now passing through my mind. How desperately I wanted to return now and gather them together! This grief that I began to feel was even worse than I had felt about wasting time. I had wasted people! Now many of these were prisoners of the enemy, wounded and captured during the battle on the mountain. This whole battle was for people, and yet people were often regarded as the least important. We will fight for truths more than for the people for whom they are given. We will fight for ministries while running roughshod over the people in them. "And many people think of me as a spiritual leader! I am truly the least of the saints," I thought to myself." (Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest)

Phantasman · Oct 12, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
That's an interesting quote, because Jesus didn't say that. Whence the "as I do"? That's not in the text.

What Luke 14:26 actually says is:
"If anyone is coming to me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he cannot be my disciple."

The Matthew 10:37 version is:
"He who is fond of father or mother above me is not worthy of me. And he who is fond of son or daughter above me is not worthy of me."

Matthew's version of Jesus is easier to take in this regard than Luke's. Matthew's Jesus, taken literally, is a completely acceptable thing. Love God above all - right. That would mean love God more than family.

Luke's version of Jesus is quite a bit harder to take: HATE my father and mother? HATE me wife? HATE my child?

No, Jesus, I will not do that. If you meant that literally, then I cannot follow you, because I will not hate my parents, nor will I hate my wife, nor will I hate my child.

Jesus, if you really meant that, then you are all over the place and inconsistent with yourself, for elsewhere you said to love your neighbor as yourself, and love God above all.

Love God above all? Of course. Did not God give me my parents, and my child too?
But follow Jesus to the point of HATING my parents, wife and child?
No.

Not call my own father "father"? No. That's just silly.

So, there are two examples of things that Jesus said that, if he meant them literally, are outrageous or just foolish, and that I'm not going to accept or do.

I assume, given the preposterousness of a commandment to hate one's own family, or the ridiculousness of the commandment not to call one's own biological father "father", that Jesus used those terms in those preposterous and ridiculous ways as hyperbole, to grab our attention and force us to think about what he's getting at.

Indeed, that's really the only way that those two expressions of Jesus are acceptable at all: as hyperbole. What he is recorded by Matthew is, I take it, the MEANING of his hyperbolic "hate everybody you love". "Don't give undue authority to some spiritual leader" is what I take he meant by "call no man father"; also, remember that you and your father both are spirits created by the Father in heaven, making you both brothers of Jesus by the spirit, if you follow Jesus.

If he actually meant to be taken literally, then I'll take him literally also, and not call anybody the Greek word "father" that he used. Since I call my father the English word "father", I'm not breaking what he literally said.

If he really MEANT that I'm supposed to hate my parents, my wife and my child or I can't be his disciple, then he can go fly a kite, because I won't be anybody's disciple on those terms. They are unacceptable.

My God doesn't ask me to hate my loved ones. He asks me to love everybody, and to love Him even more. That's what I've decided Jesus MEANT by that phrase you misquoted (you added the "like I do" to it).

You are not seeing the spiritual message of hate and love. Mammon and God. Hate the one love the other. Hate the flesh, love the spirit. Our mothers and fathers are loved as we love our neighbors (2nd commandment). Spirit over flesh. Jesus took his spiritual mother (the Holy Spirit) over his fleshly mother (Mary). His spiritual mother led the fleshly mother. Not the other way around. Jesus said he came with a sword to divide sons and fathers, mothers and daughters, etc. It's a spiritual sword. See the spirit. The flesh confuses.

To not hate that of the flesh is to follow two masters.

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Divide said:
Not directly, but I am well versed in the use of the Concordance and the BlueletterBible.com which is a free online Concordance.

I gotta run off to work now, running a little behind, but I'll be back tonight after work.

When you return tonight, we will open to the place in Genesis where God creates animals and men, and the word he uses for both, "nephesh", which means "breather", and which is the word that is translated as "soul".

Then we will flip forward to the Flood and find God drowning the breathers.

You will not find any divergence in the use of this word that your English translators render as "souls" or "living beings" or other things. There's one Hebrew word - it is translated several ways into English. Those translations into English obscure the reality: what animals and we both are is one thing breath (which is spirit) breathed into flesh. The combination of a breath/spirit with flesh is a "breather", which is a "soul", a living being.

In the actual Scriptures, neither animals nor men HAVE souls - we ARE souls - breathers. Breath is spirit, in both Hebrew and Greek. The actual Scriptures, particularly the Hebrew Scriptures, are much, MUCH more concrete than the complicated structure of belief that has been worked into the English by translators.

Obviously I systematically and categorically discard every nuance inserted into the Hebrew by English translators, because none of those nuances actually really exist at all in the Scriptures. They are added elements that reflect the theological beliefs of the translators, but are not revealed by God.

Animals and men are both described by the exact same word: breathers. Breathers is translated as "souls" SOMETIMES by English translators. The word should always be translated by the same word, because it's just one word, and just one concept. Animals and humans are exactly the same, in this regard, in Scripture. That they are not in English is a fantasy of English writers. The actual Scripture describes both men and animals as souls, because that's what we are: nephesh - breathers - breath animating flesh - spirit animating flesh.

Animals are souls just exactly as we are. That's what is written in Scripture. There is no English Scripture. All Scripture is in Hebrew or Greek. It has been translated into other languages. Translations are not Scripture. They are interpretations of Scripture.

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Phantasman said:
You are not seeing the spiritual message of hate and love. Mammon and God. Hate the one love the other. Hate the flesh, love the spirit. Our mothers and fathers are loved as we love our neighbors (2nd commandment). Spirit over flesh. Jesus took his spiritual mother (the Holy Spirit) over his fleshly mother (Mary). His spiritual mother led the fleshly mother. Not the other way around. Jesus said he came with a sword to divide sons and fathers, mothers and daughters, etc. It's a spiritual sword. See the spirit. The flesh confuses.

To not hate that of the flesh is to follow two masters.

Yeah. We have two different gods and two different religions.

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Phantasman said:
Christ brought the word of God. The Holy Spirit reveals the word of God. I follow the Word of God, heard by flesh through flesh and revealed Spirit through Spirit.

I saw you add to the word of God (as interpreted by the English translators. I saw you add the words "as I do" twice in a quote of Jesus in which he did not say those words.

Our gods are different, and even our scriptures are different. Don't think we can ever come to a meeting of the minds, given that.

he-man · Oct 12, 2017

GUANO said:
A person can have faith in anything. Faith is very powerful and faith itself gives "life" to these 'things', it brings them up out of the abyss of the human imagination (so to speak).
The ancient gods themselves, such as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Hindu, etc., are depicted as "monsters" or other "creatures" in art and myth, but that is only allegory. They represent natural forces that exist in the real world and then are typified in the individual psyche and the body politic using symbolism. Most of the Assyrian and Babylonian gods directly represented the 'thing' itself... The word "Baal" simply means "Lord" or "Master", or more appropriately, it means "husband" (because the 'people' are the wife), and was just the patron deity of any specific thing. Before Baal it was "El", as in "El Shaddai" or "Elohim". The old testament makes many statements which grants recognition to other gods as if they exist.
The Egyptian Goddess "Ma'at" was just the word for the sky, deified. And there is a very complex cosmology that is also in agreement with Biblical Hebrew cosmology (which is much closer to Babylonian).
Where the Egyptians called it "Ma'at", and the Babylonians called it "Anu", it is written as the "firmament" in Genesis.
They did not practice Astrology, they practiced Astrolatry; which is the practice taking a deified principle such as a "King" or other ruler and assigning it to a natural phenomena such as the sky, stars, and the like, granting some kind of "legitimacy" to the ruling class and it's hierarchy. Only the common folk believed that the stars and other heavenly bodies were had actual influence over human affairs. It's magic/idolatry, and it's very advanced and complicated.
Satan is called the Prince of the Powers of the Air in one scripture. This is not the physical air, it's the symbolic air, the "mood", today we still call it the "atmosphere"...
Is there no such thing as "atmosphere" (mood)? Is there no such thing as "Satan?" If there is, what is 'it'? Satan is the "flesh"... The flesh determines what the pervading tone or mood of a place, situation, or work of art is, and the flesh is influenced by many other so-called 'powers', terrestrial or celestial (symbolically), and those powers are in a hierarchy. Demonology/cosmology is psychology. It always was. Just because people run wild and literalize the myths does not mean there is no meaning or reality to it. The myths and superstitions are powerful in themselves just as deception is powerful. But the Bible contains cosmology and says that these powers and 'authorities' are real, it just doesn't call the "Aer" (atmosphere) "Shu" (Egyptian), "Enlil" (Babylonian) or "Vata" (Hindu).The Egyptian 'ruler' of darkness and chaos is "Kek" and it was a frog, in the Bible this force is called Leviathan—is this also superstition or is an actual thing and does it have some kind of symbolic 'ruler' who manifests itself on earth in strange ways?
SATUS MENTIBUS OBVIA = "Start Encountering Minds"
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
So we are in agreement that there are no hollywood-style demons or ghosts or goblins, so then, is the Bible nonsense or does it actually mean something? There is no such thing as dragons or beasts with seven heads and ten horns, and spirits cannot be seen so how can they look like frogs? And how can they perform miracles? Are dreams and visions completely meaningless or can they be interpreted? Are parables meaningless? Where is the line drawn?

There are no lines. Who was Baal, Bel, Bael, etc.? Who was the Prince (Ruler) of the Air?

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Phantasman said:
To not hate that of the flesh is to follow two masters.

Does your god require me - does he really MEAN - that I am supposed to hate my mother and father, and hate my wife, and hate my child? I see that you quoted Jesus SAYING that (and I see that you added the words "like I do" to that quote of Jesus, twice, though he did not say those words). And you seem to be echoing it here.

Religion ultimately comes down to what you have to DO, so let me crystallize it to a simple question: to follow Jesus, do I have to hate my child?

He said that, but did he MEAN it?

I think he was speaking hyperbolically, and what he meant by that is what he said in Matthew 10 - we have to remember to love God MORE than we love our loved ones. That I can do.

You seem to be saying that I must take him literally, that he said, and meant, that I must hate my child if I am to follow him.

Do you believe that is what he meant? He SAID it, in Luke, but is that what he MEANT by those words? Is he to be taken literally on that? Yes or no?

It's a really straightforward question.

DennisTate · Oct 12, 2017

Phantasman said:
You are not seeing the spiritual message of hate and love. Mammon and God. Hate the one love the other. Hate the flesh, love the spirit. Our mothers and fathers are loved as we love our neighbors (2nd commandment). Spirit over flesh. Jesus took his spiritual mother (the Holy Spirit) over his fleshly mother (Mary). His spiritual mother led the fleshly mother. Not the other way around. Jesus said he came with a sword to divide sons and fathers, mothers and daughters, etc. It's a spiritual sword. See the spirit. The flesh confuses.

To not hate that of the flesh is to follow two masters.

And isn't it interesting that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus sure seems to have stated that there are TWO who are greater than him?

The Ancient of Days the Father is obviously greater than him:

John 14:28

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

But also.... .when Messiah Yeshua - Jesus stated that it was better for the Church to have the Holy Spirit
poured out to them....... than to have him there in person....... then this sure sounds like The Holy Spirit was greater than Messiah as well?

John 16:7

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Jhn 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Phantasman · Oct 12, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
I saw you add to the word of God (as interpreted by the English translators. I saw you add the words "as I do" twice in a quote of Jesus in which he did not say those words.

Our gods are different, and even our scriptures are different. Don't think we can ever come to a meeting of the minds, given that.

I'm lost on the "as I do" part. You must be confusing me with another debater.

Given your moniker, I never really expected you to agree with me. I don't try to get people to agree with me. I'm fine. I present another perspective that others (than yourself) might seek out and find.

Church doctrines are extremely strong, but their strength comes through the fear of death (and hell). To be free of such thinking is what Christs intentions were for us.

1 John:
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

To use fear as a motivator is what the false God within the OT used.

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Divide said:
No, I sure wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth and assume a bunch of stuff about me. I didn't say that you were ignorant, or that Paul is Jesus, or insult you.

Somebody else called me ignorant repeatedly. I'm not. Jesus says to turn the other cheek. I'm not good at doing that. I slapped back at the guy who called me ignorant. If I caught you in the crossfire, I'm sorry - it wasn't directed at you (unless you also called me ignorant, but if you did, I don't remember it).

Phantasman · Oct 12, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
Does your god require me - does he really MEAN - that I am supposed to hate my mother and father, and hate my wife, and hate my child? I see that you quoted Jesus SAYING that (and I see that you added the words "like I do" to that quote of Jesus, twice, though he did not say those words). And you seem to be echoing it here.

Religion ultimately comes down to what you have to DO, so let me crystallize it to a simple question: to follow Jesus, do I have to hate my child?

He said that, but did he MEAN it?

I think he was speaking hyperbolically, and what he meant by that is what he said in Matthew 10 - we have to remember to love God MORE than we love our loved ones. That I can do.

You seem to be saying that I must take him literally, that he said, and meant, that I must hate my child if I am to follow him.

Do you believe that is what he meant? He SAID it, in Luke, but is that what he MEANT by those words? Is he to be taken literally on that? Yes or no?

It's a really straightforward question.

Did God have to kill his son to prove love?

What is this "like I do" you keep saying?

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Phantasman said:
Here's 2. Do you understand them? Hint: they're spiritual
...

(101) <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother AS I DO cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother AS I DO cannot become a disciple to me.

Are you not Phantasman?

I have added the emphasis to "as I do" in the quote above that you directed to me. I have capitalized the words "AS I DO", but if you look up the thread you will see that you posted that to me.

Those three words "as I do", allegedly spoken by Jesus in the Scripture you quoted, are not in fact in the Scripture at all. This is the "AS I DO" that I am referring to so insistently.

I assume that you did not just add those three words to the Scripture that you quoted, that you got those quotes somewhere. Trouble is, those three words in those two places - Jesus saying "hate...AS I DO", are not in the Bible at all. They are not there. Jesus didn't say that.

So, you gave me a "quote" of Jesus that Jesus didn't say, and you asked me if I understood them, and you gave me the hint that they are spiritual.

My problem is that you didn't quote Jesus. You quoted somebody misquoting Jesus. So I was not dealing with Jesus when I was dealing with that quote. I was dealing with somebody making Jesus say something Jesus never said.

I focused on that because we're LITERALLY not reading the same words when we're reading Scripture. Your Scripture apparently has whole phrases in it that are not in my Scripture. Obviously I think that somebody added those words to your version of Scripture in order to make the point that Jesus was saying that he hated certain people and we were supposed to also.

But Jesus never said those words at all, according to my Scripture.

I don't know how we can even discuss what JESUS said when our Scriptures don't agree on the very words themselves that he is said to have said.

Vicomte13 · Oct 12, 2017

Phantasman said:
Did God have to kill his son to prove love?

No. He decided to do that for other reasons. Of course, God knew exactly what was happening to his Son, where his Son's spirit would go, what would happen next, that his Son's body would rise again - all of it. God didn't have to "trust" or "believe" anything, because he already knew - indeed CREATED the outcome.

WE don't know and have no power to do anything like that. When WE lose a child, we suffer a great deal more than God did, because God knew and directed everything. When we give a child a shot, we understand that the child is in fear, but we know what the shot is, and what happens next. We're in charge, and we're calling the shots, and we understand that the shot really isn't that bad, and that everything will be all right. God was in the same position as he oversaw the crucifixion and physical death of his son, and everybody else. Jesus knew what the father knew as well - he was not in the dark and just having to TRUST the way we do when looking at our own deaths, and much moreso on the death of one of our children.

God wasn't really losing anything when Jesus was crucified - he knew that his son was going to go through some misery and pain, but he knew everything that would happen next. Same thing with Jesus - HE knew what was going to happen next, with divine foresight.

WE DON'T. It is MUCH harder for us to face all that, because we've been TOLD, but we don't KNOW the way that God does. We just have to TRUST, and that is MUCH MUCH harder to do, for finite beings, than what God did. It is asking more of a human parent to give up his child to death than God asked of himself when he gave Jesus up to death, because God was always in command, and saw exactly what would come next. For God, it was just a matter of enduring a short period of pain in eternity, and accepting it of his own volition - and always capable of doing something else.

With humans, there is none of the command, none of the knowledge, none of the perspective. All we have is hope and trust. We are asked to do something much MUCH harder than what God, as a parent, was asked to do. He KNEW, and indeed CONTROLLED the fate and future of his son. We DON'T know and DON'T control, we can only believe and hope - and that is a MUCH MUCH harder thing to act upon than what God acts upon.

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Can demons be given HOPE?

No... the demons have zero hope!

Yes..... Elijah must "restore all things"

I am not sure but I will research this further.

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