Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[tall73]

Your denomination clearly agrees with the Nicene Creed of the third council, because such belief is a prerequisite for posting in these forums.

Has the SDA tested the doctrines produced by the ecumenical councils and published their opinions of them?

Adventists may agree with concepts from historic creeds, but don't subscribe to them as creeds, which is allowed under CF rules.

 

[tall73]

ok so... "Ford said... that Spicer said... that Prescott said...". Still it is interesting administrivia about a meeting almost 100 years ago regarding Prescott.

But thanks for the post in any case.
I note that -- we have this scholarly work
in 1981 we have “The Sanctuary and the Atonement” published by the Biblical Research Committee of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. 700 pages of research for those interested in the content of the Sanctuary subject.

(Or we could just look for more "meeting minutes" - for those that prefer that)

Both Ford and Cottrell quote the comment, from the archives. But as I noted, the GC doesn't release everything in the archives to the rest of us. For that matter, I wish they would release Cottrell's hundreds of pages of exegetical notes on Daniel. He memorized the key passages in Hebrew so he could contemplate them all day and typed up various notes. But they are in a file somewhere.

Do you have a link to the Sanctuary and the Atonement resource? Or is it like the DARCOM volumes where they only released a .pdf of the first volume after it went out of print? I have the DARCOM volumes, but not the resource you speak of. The DARCOM volumes are also sold by the Biblical Research Institute.

I really don't understand why they spent all that time having a committee of scholars defend the denomination positions only to not publish it all online once the internet came along.

And by the time I went to the seminary folks with my questions they had newer resources anyway that were dissertations on aspects of Daniel, Hebrews, etc. They should just pay those folks and put the dissertations online.

But in any case, Prescott did not think they answered Ballenger well and wound up having his own issues with the doctrine because he didn't see answers. Unlike some he didn't leave the denomination, but as you see he did agree to keep quiet about his issues.

 

[tall73]

Not true. If you have the Day of Atonement not starting until 1844 you have a problem and the SDA POV is sustained.

When Moses inaugurated the sanctuary - he did not then "stay in the MHP for the rest of the year" and the priests did not enter the MHP daily -- after that.

Not sure how this helps you. but you seem to be skipping over these "details"

It does help for a few reasons. Jesus' entry extended throughout the whole sanctuary, or He could not inaugurate. So those who insist that ta hagia refers only to the outer compartment (they are rare these days, but still exist) cannot maintain that if they acknowledge Jesus inaugurated. I tend to agree with the DARCOM committee on ta hagia:

The committee believes that ta hagia should be regarded as a general term that should be translated in most instances as “sanctuary” unless the context clearly indicates otherwise (such as in chapter 9:2, 3). ("Daniel and Revelation Committee Report," Issues in the Book of Hebrews, 5 )

For instance, you referenced Hebrews 9. Davidson argues the text below refers to the inauguration. You have entry by means of blood, which was not required for the first compartment. And you have blood of goats, which only went in on the Day of Atonement and the inauguration. Young, another Adventist scholar, argues these verses refer to the Day of Atonement.

Do you agree with Davidson that this refers to the heavenly inauguration?

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

 

[BobRyan]

It does help for a few reasons. Jesus' entry extended throughout the whole sanctuary, or He could not inaugurate.

Certainly that was also true of Moses - but it did not delete the Day of Atonement and did not leave the MHP open for all the daily services during the year.

However when we look at Heb 6 we do not see any focus at all on "inauguration" or on "Day of Atonement".

Heb 6:
17 In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Paul does not point to inauguration or judgment or Day of Atonement in Heb 6 - He points to the daily ministry of Christ as High Priest in Heb 6:

Heb4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need.

Heb 7:
24 Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

Paul points to the ongoing daily ministry work of Christ as High Priest in the book of Hebrews.

It leaves you with a Day of Atonement service in 1844 and a two phase sanctuary model as God gave it.

 

[tall73]

Certainly that was also true of Moses - but it did not delete the Day of Atonement and did not leave the MHP open for all the daily services during the year.

However when we look at Heb 6 we do not see any focus at all on "inauguration" or on "Day of Atonement".

Heb 6:
17 In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Paul does not point to inauguration or judgment or Day of Atonement in Heb 6 - He points to the daily ministry of Christ as High Priest in Heb 6:

Heb4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need.

Heb 7:
24 Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

Paul points to the ongoing daily ministry work of Christ as High Priest in the book of Hebrews.

You talked about 6, but then quoted from 4 and 7 but skipped the reference in 9 that I mentioned which Davidson thinks speaks of inauguration.

You referenced 9 earlier so I thought it might be a good place to examine things.


Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

High Priest, entry by means of blood, what do you think it is? Blood was not necessary to enter the first compartment and goats blood was only taken in on the inauguration and Day of Atonement.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you have a link to the Sanctuary and the Atonement resource? Or is it like the DARCOM volumes where they only released a .pdf of the first volume after it went out of print? .

I have the book - hard copy as Ford first provided it. I don't have a link for it. But I can tell you that on that same page 51 - Ford points out that Prescott rejected not only the IJ but also issue regarding the Trinity and that while he had promised Spicer not to teach his views in his classes - he still continued having open conversations about his views with what he called "the leading men of the denomination". And after much discussion with Spicer - asked Spicer if he should resign.

 

[BobRyan]

You talked about 6, but then quoted from 4 and 7 but skipped the reference in 9 that I mentioned which Davidson thinks speaks of inauguration.

I already pointed out in my post that 9 is the only place you find inauguration in Hebrews.

 

[tall73]

I have the book - hard copy as Ford first provided it. I don't have a link for it. But I can tell you that on that same page 51 - Ford points out that Prescott rejected not only the IJ but also issue regarding the Trinity and that while he had promised Spicer not to teach his views in his classes - he still continued having open conversations about his views with what he called "the leading men of the denomination". And after much discussion with Spicer - asked Spicer if he should resign.

Oh not that book, I have the hard copy and the online one for that.

I meant the one you say you like from the BRI. I have the DARCOM but not the one you mentioned.

 

[BobRyan]

Your denomination clearly agrees with the Nicene Creed of the third council, because such belief is a prerequisite for posting in these forums.

Has the SDA tested the doctrines produced by the ecumenical councils and published their opinions of them?

No because we never use councils to "prove some doctrine" or to "disprove it" nor do we ever claim "this doctrine must surely be correct since xyz council approved it and we trust them on this doctrine over sola scriptura testing of it".

The fact that we agree with something stated in this-or-that council is incidental for us. It does not drive our doctrinal statement or direction. We are very happy when they get something right.

 

[BobRyan]

Oh not that book, I have the hard copy and the online one for that.

I meant the one you say you like from the BRI. I have the DARCOM but not the one you mentioned.

Yeah - that one is hard copy only in my case - I don't know where to fine it online currently.

 

[tall73]

I already pointed out in my post that 9 is the only place you find inauguration in Hebrews.

10:20 uses the same word for inauguration in Greek:

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

ἐγκαινίζω
From G1456; to renew, that is, inaugurate: - consecrate, dedicate.

 

[BobRyan]

So it sounds like the council in Acts 15 is regarded by SDAs as authoritative. And then the first General Conference in 1863.

Any authoritative councils between those two?

Many church councils in history included some statement that was correct. But errors crept in over time as Paul predicts in 2 Thess 2.
Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

[tall73]

I already pointed out in my post that 9 is the only place you find inauguration in Hebrews.

The problem Bob is that the verses you indicate are speaking of the inauguration indicate some other things as well.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

The entry which included the inauguration was through the whole sanctuary. But it was also, like the sacrifice, once for all. It was the only entry ever. It was the fulfillment of all the entries with blood, whether into the first compartment (some sin offerings), or the second (Day of Atonement and inauguration).

And the entry secured eternal redemption. As you note, the inauguration did not do that.

 

[BobRyan]

10:20 uses the same word for inauguration in Greek:

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

ἐγκαινίζω
From G1456; to renew, that is, inaugurate: - consecrate, dedicate.

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Which is yet another reference to the daily ministry of Christ. An entrance into the Holy Place. The veil "His flesh" - the one sacrifice for all - the sacrifice of Himself on the cross - that begins the service in heaven. And the Heb 9 daily work of cleansing the soul who repents and confesses.

 

[BobRyan]

The entry which included the inauguration was through the whole sanctuary. But it was also, like the sacrifice, once for all. It was the only entry ever.

True but that is into the sanctuary - it was not a once for all entry into the MHP , it was once for all entry into the sanctuary. No text in all of scripture speaks of a "once for all entry into the Holy of Holies, or the most holy place"

Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

once for all into the Holy Place - not once for all into the MHP
Once for all into the sanctuary - not once for all into the MHP

 

[tall73]

Yeah - that one is hard copy only in my case - I don't know where to fine it online currently.

Well I will see what I can find. But if you want Des Ford's book in digital in case you need to quote it for some reason you can find it here:

https://www.desford.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Dr-Desmond-Ford-Daniel.8.14.pdf

 

[tall73]

True but that is into the sanctuary - it was not a once for all entry into the MHP , it was once for all entry into the sanctuary.

If it included the inauguration, and since it is by means of blood, and since it involves bringing the antitype of goat blood in particular, that can only be into the second compartment.

 

[tall73]

True but that is into the sanctuary - it was not a once for all entry into the MHP , it was once for all entry into the sanctuary. No text in all of scripture speaks of a "once for all entry into the Holy of Holies, or the most holy place"

Inauguration was into the whole thing, and the term inauguration was used.

 

[tall73]

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Which is yet another reference to the daily ministry of Christ. An entrance into the Holy Place. The veil "His flesh" - the one sacrifice for all - the sacrifice of Himself on the cross - that begins the service in heaven. And the Heb 9 daily work of cleansing the soul who repents and confesses.

Bob, the work the priest did in the daily was to offer blood. Jesus already offered His blood. He doesn't do it again and again.

We still come to the throne of grace for help based on His completed blood work, as the verse from chapter 4 that you noted states. But the blood work is done.

Also, the washing and sprinkling refer to the dedication of priests.

Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water

Exo 29:4 You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting and wash them with water.

Exo 29:21 Then you shall take part of the blood that is on the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and his garments, and on his sons and his sons' garments with him. He and his garments shall be holy, and his sons and his sons' garments with him.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, the work the priest did in the daily was to offer blood. Jesus already offered His blood. He doesn't do it again and again. .

Blood is offered up on the altar of sacrifice - which is done once for all

Heb 7:
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,

But then He goes to heaven - starts up the sanctuary service - and begins the holy place ministry where the blood is being claimed for forgiveness of sins being confessed which results in cleansing the conscience as Heb 9 and 10 point out - for the confessing those sins.

Also, the washing and sprinkling refer to the dedication of priests.

No it refers to the sinner who is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest - which is the daily service.


Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

1 John 1:2
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.