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Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

BobRyan

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I also see that you didn't address the inauguration. You believe Jesus inaugurated don't you?

Yes I do but I don't think that was specific to either phase of the sanctuary -- just the start of the entire process. It was not a case of Jesus entering the Day of Atonement service in the MHP. Nor was Moses starting the Day of Atonement when he inaugurated the earthly sanctuary. Here again "details matter" in my POV
 
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tall73

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Andreason did not accept the full scope of teaching on the sinless nature of Christ - so I am not entirely bought into the idea that "anything Adreason thought must be without flaw". That's me being a "Moderate SDA" - fully accepting the Fundamental Beliefs but not far-right or far-left.

I don't know Bob, now you have Davidson, Young, Andross, Gane, AND Andreason as heretics. The list is getting long.

You don't accept very conservative Adventist views on questions, or scholarly Adventists in trusted positions. Are you sure you are arguing the Adventist position, or just Bob's?

Prescott never used the term "good answers" that I know of in relation to Ballanger. Prescott was looking for a scholarly paper not simply "good Bible answers to Ballenger"

Prescott said:

Twenty-five years later W. W. Prescott (a member of the GC ad hoc committees appointed to meet with the dissidents) commented in a letter to W. A. Spicer, then president of the General Conference: "I have waited all these years for someone to make an adequate answer to Ballenger, Fletcher and others on their positions re. the sanctuary but I have not seen or heard it." Cottrell's Sanctuary Doctrine—Asset or liability.


He indicated not one gave an adequate answer. He was in the meetings Bob. He was one of the people the GC sent to these types of discussions. But he didn't here adequate answers.

And then Andross agreed with Ballenger on within the vail, as do Richardson, Gane, and Young.
 
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tall73

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He was after all very open to correction of that sort

Actually, he was not opposed to correction if it was given with evidence. in fact Ellen White notes that he earlier received correction on a different point from her:

After I had borne a decided testimony, Brother Ballenger arose, all brokenhearted and weeping, and said, “I receive this testimony as from the Lord. I was in that meeting last night, and I was on the wrong side.”

But Prescott noted no adequate answer was given in this case. And Andross who was to respond to him wound up agreeing.
 
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tall73

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Yes I do but I don't think that was specific to either phase of the sanctuary -- just the start of the entire process.

Same as Andross. But then you just admitted the question of entry within the veil. And you have now moved into talking about "phases" instead of locations, as most modern Adventist scholars do.

So you in fact agree with Davidson, Young, Gane, Andross and Ballenger. He did go within the veil.
 
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BobRyan

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Same as Andross. But then you just admitted the question of entry within the veil.

Depends on whether you think Heb 6 is a focus on "starting the Sanctuary" function as God defined it - (which had to have completed decades before Heb 6 was written) or if you think it is about the fact that the High Priestly work of Christ is presently going on their now as Heb 6 points out.

The inauguration event (as Moses points out) - transfers no sin , forgives no sin. involves no confession, judges no one , is not specific to any individual, and saves no one - it merely starts the process.

So while it is wonderful that it sets apart the entire sanctuary for that intended use - it does not actually deal with any one individual's case/salvation/sin/forgiveness.

Which leads us to conclude that Heb 6 is talking about MORE than just getting something ready to start - rather it is talking about work of Christ in the sanctuary as "The one mediator between God and man" in which case at the time of the writing of Heb 6 - that has to be the first phase of that sanctuary where Christ was serving as High Priest -- "seated at the right hand of the Father" in that Sanctuary. The priest "Seated on His throne"
 
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BobRyan

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But Prescott noted no adequate answer was given

Do you have his "no adequate answer" quote? in context?

In any case - that old news -- has new-er news.

in 1981 we have “The Sanctuary and the Atonement” published by the Biblical Research Committee of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Over 20 SDA scholars affirming the SDA Day of Atonement, Sanctuary and Investigative Judgment doctrine.
 
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tall73

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Depends on whether you think Heb 6 is a focus on "starting the Sanctuary" function as God defined it - (which had to have completed decades before Heb 6 was written) or if you think it is about the fact that the High Priestly work of Christ is presently going on their now as Heb 6 points out.

The inauguration event (as Moses points out) - transfers no sin , forgives no sin. involves no confession, judges no one , is not specific to any individual, and saves no one - it merely starts the process.

So while it is wonderful that it sets apart the entire sanctuary for that intended use - it does not actually deal with any one individual's case/salvation/sin/forgiveness.

Which leads us to conclude that Heb 6 is talking about MORE than just getting something ready to start - rather it is talking about work of Christ in the sanctuary as "The one mediator between God and man" in which case at the time of the writing of Heb 6 - that has to be the first phase of that sanctuary where Christ was serving as High Priest -- "seated at the right hand of the Father" in that Sanctuary. The priest "Seated on His throne"

That is a lot of qualifiers. But it did involve the whole sanctuary, so you agree He went within the veil.
 
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BobRyan

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That is a lot of qualifiers. But it did involve the whole sanctuary, so you agree He went within the veil.

Everyone agrees He went "Within the veil" - the question is which one.

1. Hebrews 6 does not appear to be talking mainly about Inauguration - it looks like the daily ministry of Christ in the holy place. I think Heb 9 is the closet you get to inauguration.
2. And it does your argument no good if Heb 6 is not talking about the Day of Atonement ministry -- which is a problem for your case so far.
 
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tall73

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Do you have his "no adequate answer" quote? in context?

You would have to get access to the General Conference Archives. There are quite a few things I would like to be able to access there, including the full correspondance.

I am aware of it because the quote is referenced by Spicer in a response to him, quoted in Des Ford's manuscript and partially in Cottrell's. Ford's Manuscript was reviewed by many and they did not object the history presented.

In the letter Spicer went on to say:

After a long discussion of the sanctuary, the Trinity and other questions you ask whether I felt you should resign seeing you were out of harmony with the church. I replied that I was not competent to give advice but was sure that if you taught the things in your classes which you had talked to me the brethren would ask you to resign. You assured me you were not teaching them but talked of them confidentially only to leading men.


Further info from Des' Manuscript.

Present at the trials of Ballenger and Conradi was our veteran educator and administrator,W.W. Prescott (1844-1944). He was president of Union, Walla Walla, and Avondale, and head of the theology department of EMC. He served as field secretary of the GC, and editor of the Review (for seven years). He was the author of The Spade and the Bible, published by Revell. Hundreds of preachers and officers of the denomination received their Bible training from Prescott. The Doctrine of Christ, written by him in the twenties, summarizes his doctrinal presentations in the classroom.

In the Officer‘s Minutes of March 2,1934, we find allusion to the need to save the denomination from ―drifting into theories like Ballenger s.‖

The Officer‘s Minutes of Jan. 22, 1934, record that:W.W. Prescott, who is teaching Bible at Emmanuel Missionary College had certain questions concerning our theology. When these had been considered by a small group it had been agreed that W.W. Prescott continue at EMC for the rest of this school year, and that he not teach in the classroom any of these matters upon which he differs with the denomination. It had also been agreed that at the end of the school year he would not be continued longer at EMC. A letter had been received by W.H. Branson from K.H. Holden asking that the General Conference call W.W. Prescott back to Washington to relieve them of the necessity of asking him to discontinue work.


It was finally Voted, That I.H. Evans and W.H. Branson draw up a statement to W.W. Prescott explaining to him that on the basis of conversations which have been had with him by members of the official staff, that we understand he is not in full harmony with the denominational beliefs, and that we believe that he cannot go on teaching in a Bible Department while his views are not in harmony with the denomination, and suggest to him that he cooperate with the Officers and with the Emmanuel Missionary College Board by withdrawing at the end of the school year; that we further suggest to him in the statement that if he wishes, he may have a hearing on his religious views with the Officers of the General Conference.31

February 2,1934, W.W. Prescott wrote to Elders Branson and Evans. We quote the first two paragraphs.

Dear Brethren:
In your letter of Jan. 29, received yesterday, you advise me to withdraw voluntarily from my place as a worker in this movement on the ground that I am ―somewhat out of harmony with the established faith of the denomination on certain vital points, especially the doctrine of the sanctuary.‖ You do this without having had any conference with me over the serious question involved, and without expressing any regret that I have taken such a course as to forfeit your confidence in me as a proper representative of this work after having devoted about fifty years of my life to its advancement. Not only so, but you plainly imply that if I do not thus withdraw, the matter will be taken up with the Board of Trustees of this college with the purpose, of course, of preventing me from being invited by them to continue my work here. Now it is an axiom in any court of justice that an accused person should have the opportunity of facing his accusers in court and be given a fair chance of disproving the charges against him, but it seems as if you had already decided the case against me, and were now advising me to avoid a public condemnation by quietly accepting your decision. It is true that you offer me the opportunity of coming to Washington to confer with you, but are the accusers the proper jury to consider the case? Is it not a fair procedure that the charge which you make against me should be considered by those who have not made the charge? It seems that way to me.
 
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tall73

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Everyone agrees He went "Within the veil" - the question is which one.

If He inaugurated it was both.

1. Hebrews 6 does not appear to be talking mainly about Inauguration - it looks like the daily ministry of Christ in the holy place. I think Heb 9 is the closet you get to inauguration.
2. And it does your argument no good if Heb 6 is not talking about the Day of Atonement ministry -- which is a problem for your case so far.

Actually it is fine. If the entry extends to the MHP then you have already lost the argument, due to what the other texts say. And He did inaugurate, and He did go through the whole sanctuary.
 
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Leaf473

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Some selections from Ellen White to discuss:

I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered. Your error was in persistently maintaining your private judgment of your duty against the voice of the highest authority the Lord has upon the earth. After you had taken your own time, and after the work had been much hindered by your delay, you came to Battle Creek in answer to the repeated and urgent calls of the General Conference. You firmly maintained that you had done right in following your own convictions of duty. You considered it a virtue in you to persistently maintain your position of independence. You did not seem to have a true sense of the power that God has given to His church in the voice of the General Conference. You thought that in responding to the call made to you by the General Conference you were submitting to the judgment and mind of one man. You accordingly manifested an independence, a set, willful spirit, which was all wrong. Testimonies for the Church Volume 3, chapter 44

I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body. {9T 260.1}Testimonies for the Church Volume 9, Section 8

You are constantly inclined to individual independence. You do not realize that independence is a poor thing when it leads you to have too much confidence in yourself and to trust to your own judgment rather than to respect the counsel and highly estimate the judgment of your brethren, especially of those in the offices which God has appointed for the saving of His people. God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for in so doing he despises the voice of God. Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3
Wow, fascinating!

So it sounds like individual or private judgment is to be surrendered if it conflicts with the decisions of the General Conference
(which I'm learning now must be what people mean when they say GC :) ).

Do SDAs generally view the council in Acts 15 as a kind of General Conference?

Or a similar kind of question:
historically, did General Conferences first appear in the 19th century or thereabouts? Or were there some in the early church? If so, when did they stop?
 
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ChetSinger

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Some selections from Ellen White to discuss:

I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered. Your error was in persistently maintaining your private judgment of your duty against the voice of the highest authority the Lord has upon the earth. After you had taken your own time, and after the work had been much hindered by your delay, you came to Battle Creek in answer to the repeated and urgent calls of the General Conference. You firmly maintained that you had done right in following your own convictions of duty. You considered it a virtue in you to persistently maintain your position of independence. You did not seem to have a true sense of the power that God has given to His church in the voice of the General Conference. You thought that in responding to the call made to you by the General Conference you were submitting to the judgment and mind of one man. You accordingly manifested an independence, a set, willful spirit, which was all wrong. Testimonies for the Church Volume 3, chapter 44

I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body. {9T 260.1}Testimonies for the Church Volume 9, Section 8

You are constantly inclined to individual independence. You do not realize that independence is a poor thing when it leads you to have too much confidence in yourself and to trust to your own judgment rather than to respect the counsel and highly estimate the judgment of your brethren, especially of those in the offices which God has appointed for the saving of His people. God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for in so doing he despises the voice of God. Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3
Just a question, but would you know how many of the first seven ecumenical councils the SDA recognizes as authoritative?
 
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tall73

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Just a question, but would you know how many of the first seven ecumenical councils the SDA recognizes as authoritative?

I don't want to characterize in my own words, because I could be accused of misrepresentation. so I will post this. It is on the development of Adventist views on creeds, which is related. Bob can of course elaborate.

Creeds
 
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tall73

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Wow, fascinating!

So it sounds like individual or private judgment is to be surrendered if it conflicts with the decisions of the General Conference
(which I'm learning now must be what people mean when they say GC :) ).

Do SDAs generally view the council in Acts 15 as a kind of General Conference?

Or a similar kind of question:
historically, did General Conferences first appear in the 19th century or thereabouts? Or were there some in the early church? If so, when did they stop?

For more information on the development of organization in the SDA church check here, starting on page 86:

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Books/LBTTR1979.pdf
 
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BobRyan

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Everyone agrees He went "Within the veil" - the question is which one and why.

1. Hebrews 6 does not appear to be talking mainly about Inauguration - it looks like the daily ministry of Christ in the holy place. I think Heb 9 is the closet you get to inauguration.
2. And it does your argument no good if Heb 6 is not talking about the Day of Atonement ministry -- which is a problem for your case so far.

If He inaugurated it was both.
Actually it is fine. If the entry extends to the MHP then you have already lost the argument,

Not true. If you have the Day of Atonement not starting until 1844 you have a problem and the SDA POV is sustained.

When Moses inaugurated the sanctuary - he did not then "stay in the MHP for the rest of the year" and the priests did not enter the MHP daily -- after that.

Not sure how this helps you. but you seem to be skipping over these "details"
 
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BobRyan

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Just a question, but would you know how many of the first seven ecumenical councils the SDA recognizes as authoritative?

None of them. All of our doctrine stands or falls "sola scriptura".

That does not mean we declare all decisions in the first 7 councils "to be in error". It simply means that we test all doctrine, tradition an practice by the authoritative standard "scripture"
 
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BobRyan

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Do SDAs generally view the council in Acts 15 as a kind of General Conference?

Or a similar kind of question:
historically, did General Conferences first appear in the 19th century or thereabouts? Or were there some in the early church? If so, when did they stop?

Yes it is an example of church leadership voting on doctrinal questions through its representatives in session.

And the SDA denomination did not exist before the 19th century so we as a distinct denomination would not have a "vote" in what happens outside of that.
 
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BobRyan

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I am aware of it because the quote is referenced by Spicer in a response to him, quoted in Des Ford's manuscript and partially in Cottrell's. Ford's Manuscript was reviewed by many and they did not object the history presented.

In the letter Spicer went on to say:

After a long discussion of the sanctuary, the Trinity and other questions you ask whether I felt you should resign seeing you were out of harmony with the church. I replied that I was not competent to give advice but was sure that if you taught the things in your classes which you had talked to me the brethren would ask you to resign. You assured me you were not teaching them but talked of them confidentially only to leading men.


Further info from Des' Manuscript.

Present at the trials of Ballenger and Conradi was our veteran educator and administrator,W.W. Prescott (1844-1944). He was president of Union, Walla Walla, and Avondale, and head of the theology department of EMC. He served as field secretary of the GC, and editor of the Review (for seven years). He was the author of The Spade and the Bible, published by Revell. Hundreds of preachers and officers of the denomination received their Bible training from Prescott. The Doctrine of Christ, written by him in the twenties, summarizes his doctrinal presentations in the classroom.

In the Officer‘s Minutes of March 2,1934, we find allusion to the need to save the denomination from ―drifting into theories like Ballenger s.‖

The Officer‘s Minutes of Jan. 22, 1934, record that:W.W. Prescott, who is teaching Bible at Emmanuel Missionary College had certain questions concerning our theology. When these had been considered by a small group it had been agreed that W.W. Prescott continue at EMC for the rest of this school year, and that he not teach in the classroom any of these matters upon which he differs with the denomination. It had also been agreed that at the end of the school year he would not be continued longer at EMC. A letter had been received by W.H. Branson from K.H. Holden asking that the General Conference call W.W. Prescott back to Washington to relieve them of the necessity of asking him to discontinue work.


It was finally Voted, That I.H. Evans and W.H. Branson draw up a statement to W.W. Prescott explaining to him that on the basis of conversations which have been had with him by members of the official staff, that we understand he is not in full harmony with the denominational beliefs, and that we believe that he cannot go on teaching in a Bible Department while his views are not in harmony with the denomination, and suggest to him that he cooperate with the Officers and with the Emmanuel Missionary College Board by withdrawing at the end of the school year; that we further suggest to him in the statement that if he wishes, he may have a hearing on his religious views with the Officers of the General Conference.31

February 2,1934, W.W. Prescott wrote to Elders Branson and Evans. We quote the first two paragraphs.

Dear Brethren:
In your letter of Jan. 29, received yesterday, you advise me to withdraw voluntarily from my place as a worker in this movement on the ground that I am ―somewhat out of harmony with the established faith of the denomination on certain vital points, especially the doctrine of the sanctuary.‖ You do this without having had any conference with me over the serious question involved, and without expressing any regret that I have taken such a course as to forfeit your confidence in me as a proper representative of this work after having devoted about fifty years of my life to its advancement. Not only so, but you plainly imply that if I do not thus withdraw, the matter will be taken up with the Board of Trustees of this college with the purpose, of course, of preventing me from being invited by them to continue my work here. Now it is an axiom in any court of justice that an accused person should have the opportunity of facing his accusers in court and be given a fair chance of disproving the charges against him, but it seems as if you had already decided the case against me, and were now advising me to avoid a public condemnation by quietly accepting your decision. It is true that you offer me the opportunity of coming to Washington to confer with you, but are the accusers the proper jury to consider the case? Is it not a fair procedure that the charge which you make against me should be considered by those who have not made the charge? It seems that way to me.

ok so you are giving us page 50 and 51 of Ford's book/manuscript ... "Ford said... that Spicer said... that Prescott said...".

Still it is more somewhat interesting administrivia about a meeting almost 100 years ago regarding Prescott.

But thanks for the post in any case.

For now -- I note that -- we have this scholarly work
in 1981 we have “The Sanctuary and the Atonement” published by the Biblical Research Committee of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. 700 pages of research for those interested in the content of the Sanctuary subject.

(Or we could just look for more "meeting minutes" - for those that prefer that)
 
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Leaf473

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Yes it is an example of church leadership voting on doctrinal questions through its representatives in session.

And the SDA denomination did not exist before the 19th century so we as a distinct denomination would not have a "vote" in what happens outside of that.
So it sounds like the council in Acts 15 is regarded by SDAs as authoritative. And then the first General Conference in 1863.

Any authoritative councils between those two?
 
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ChetSinger

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None of them. All of our doctrine stands or falls "sola scriptura".

That does not mean we declare all decisions in the first 7 councils "to be in error". It simply means that we test all doctrine, tradition an practice by the authoritative standard "scripture"
Your denomination clearly agrees with the Nicene Creed of the third council, because such belief is a prerequisite for posting in these forums.

Has the SDA tested the doctrines produced by the ecumenical councils and published their opinions of them?
 
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