Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[Leaf473]

But as Lev 16:15 points out - it no longer qualifies as "sin offering".

In fact as Leviticus points out -- all sin offerings are slain. Period.. no exceptions.




Not once their roles are "assigned" because once assigned then the term "The Sin offering" in Lev 16:15 only refers to one of the goats.

Lev 16:15 15 “Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the atoning cover and in front of the atoning cover.

This is the very unambiguous reference you are trying to avoid because it shows that once they have roles assigned the scapegoat can never be "THE Goat of THE Sin Offering" -- only the Lord's goat qualifies.

If both goats are a sin offering at one point, then at that point they both represent Jesus. If later on one of them comes to represent Satan, then we have the same goat representing both Jesus and Satan.

This is another reason why I think it's not good to try to apply Leviticus 16 too closely, as we talked about earlier.

 

[BobRyan]

If both goats are a sin offering at one point, then at that point they both represent Jesus.

At one point neither is called "THE Sin offering" and neither is called "The SCAPEGOAT" and there is never "TWO JESUSes". Which means "at one point they are just goats".


There are two goats and they play opposing roles.

• One designated as “THE goat of the Sin Offering”
  
• and the other “the Scapegoat”.

But both start out without defect.

1. Jesus as God the Son incarnate. As God the Son always sinless, As incarnated in the form of a man – Jesus Christ – born “without sin”.

2. Lucifer (who became Satan) was “PERFECT in the day you were created UNTIL iniquity was found in you” Ezek 28:15


NKJV Ezek 28: 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

You are free to ignore those details if you wish - you do have free will of course.

 

[Leaf473]

That is a Bible teaching that is true no matter if one is SDA or not.



Nice - but the first step is to understand what the Bible says on the topic -- simply trying to find some short detail about Adventist history is not the same as studying the Bible doctrine itself.



Step 1 does not change in that case. -- "deal with some Bible teaching". Have to know what the Bible says about it first. Then compare what some particular denomination says about it.

nothing changes that simple basic feature.



Denominations don't "make a doctrine work" rather they affirm some doctrine that either agrees with scripture or does not.



1. No SDA doctrine said "The Bible teaches that Prophecy is only valid if Ellen White is alive". So you are off on a tangent not claimed by anyone.

2. The Bible shows that for over 300 years before the time of Christ there were no prophets. That did not delete Bible teaching on prophecy.

3. Even you find no Bible text saying that if there is no prophet for 300 years then delete the gift of prophecy.

4. No one here has shown that nobody on planet Earth has the gift of prophecy today or if one did we would all know their name.

5. Paul says in 1 Cor 14 -- that in Corinth "when you come together each one has a revelation" -- well guess what? We don't know their names.

That is a Bible teaching that is true no matter if one is SDA or not.



Nice - but the first step is to understand what the Bible says on the topic -- simply trying to find some short detail about Adventist history is not the same as studying the Bible doctrine itself.

In this first part of the post you seem to be responding to an earlier post of mine that you already responded to, and I have since replied to your response.

Step 1 does not change in that case. -- "deal with some Bible teaching". Have to know what the Bible says about it first. Then compare what some particular denomination says about it.

nothing changes that simple basic feature.

I do know what the Bible says. Not every single thing of course, it's a big book.

But not having perfect knowledge of the scriptures does not preclude evaluating a denomination specific theology.

Denominations don't "make a doctrine work" rather they affirm some doctrine that either agrees with scripture or does not.

Suppose a group of people affirm the doctrine that they can fly like an eagle, as Isaiah prophesied. Yet no one in the group is able to actually do it.

You could spend all day hashing over whether the passage was literal or figurative. Or you could just say When you're able to fly, as you believe the scriptures say, please let me know.

Seeing the doctrine in practice is part of evaluating it imo.

1. No SDA doctrine said "The Bible teaches that Prophecy is only valid if Ellen White is alive". So you are off on a tangent not claimed by anyone.

Not a tangent at all imo.

"This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church..."

Thus the question: Where is the identifying mark today?

2. The Bible shows that for over 300 years before the time of Christ there were no prophets. That did not delete Bible teaching on prophecy.

I'm not aware of a Bible text that says that.

It all depends which books one consider scripture and when one dates them.

3. Even you find no Bible text saying that if there is no prophet for 300 years then delete the gift of prophecy.

True! At the same time, is prophecy called an identifying mark of Israel?

Also, it is not required that every prophet write scripture. I think we agree on that.

And there are many unnamed prophets in the Bible.

So even if there were 300 years with no scripture, it would not necessarily follow that there were no prophets during that time.

4. No one here has shown that nobody on planet Earth has the gift of prophecy today or if one did we would all know their name.

If they are used as an identifying mark then they have to be seen imo.

5. Paul says in 1 Cor 14 -- that in Corinth "when you come together each one has a revelation" -- well guess what? We don't know their names.

That's right! But I'm pretty sure that Adventists don't believe the same thing is happening in their churches today. Or do they?

 

[Leaf473]

1. And you never found a statement saying -- "The Bible teaches that Prophecy is only valid if Ellen White is alive". So you are off on a tangent not claimed by anyone.

2. Even you find no Bible text (or Adventist doctrine) saying that if there is no prophet for 300 years then delete the gift of prophecy.

This is the easy part.

This is claimed by the denomination
"This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church..."

That's where the test comes in. The gift has to be identified in someone in order to be used as an identifying mark imo.

Secret prophets can't work as an identifying mark, they have to be identified as prophets, again imo.

If someone says they can fly according to the scriptures, I say Cool! I'd like to see that.

If someone says that if they say just the right words and believe the right thing, they can be free of all diseases. I say Cool! I want to see that in action.

If someone says that the gift of prophecy is an identifying mark of the true church today, I say Sounds great! Which church is currently demonstrating it?

 

[Leaf473]

If your claim is that nobody is aware that a claim to a prophet and the gift of prophecy is being made by the Adventist denomination so then nobody jumps into "all Ellen White all the time" kinds of posts as soon as the Adventist church topic comes up - well you are free to ride that horse all day long. By contrast even Walter Martin (a non-SDA) in his objection to some SDA doctrines did not claim that nobody is aware of the connection between Adventists and the gift of prophecy. So you are selecting an extreme option which of course you are welcomed to... you do have free will after all.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

If the gift of prophecy is an identifying mark of the true church, then I say Cool, let's use that test to identify the true church.

If the last positive test results are over 100 years old, then it looks to me like something has gone wrong.

Maybe it was an identifying mark, but isn't today.

 

[Leaf473]

Did Agabus or Nathan or Philip's four daughters or those in 1 Cor 14 "write scripture"?

Nathan and many other prophets are mentioned in scripture in both OT and NT who never wrote scripture. None of that sort of thing is mentioned in the Bible for those 300 years.

Right, that's what I'm saying. Not every prophet writes scripture.

So, a 300 year gap in the scripture writing, if that's what happened, doesn't mean there were no prophets during that time.

 

[BobRyan]

Suppose a group of people affirm the doctrine that they can fly like an eagle, as Isaiah prophesied.

Suppose those people live in the OT at the time of another prophet such as Samuel or Isaiah - or during the time of John the baptizer, or the Apostle John or the people in 1 Cor 14.

Yet no one in the group is able to actually do it.

Indeed - they would not be able to fly and yet those real prophet still "existed" at the same time no matter that someone says such a thing as you imagine above.

You could spend all day hashing over whether the passage was literal or figurative.

Indeed they could say as did Isaiah

Isaiah 40: --
30 Though youths grow weary and tired,
And vigorous young men stumble badly,
31 Yet those who wait for the Lord
Will gain new strength;
They will mount up with wings like eagles,
They will run and not get tired,
They will walk and not become weary.

Surely this is not a "delete the book of Isaiah post" from you -- correct?

Thus the question: Where is the identifying mark today?

hint: - almost every Christian scholar on planet Earth already admits that Adventists are already linked to it.

As I said before if you wish to crusade about with the new idea that the Adventist denomination has no link to a prophet/ prophecy .. good luck with that.

if you wish to crusade about with the new idea that the Adventist denomination cannot be seen by anyone to have any link to a prophet/ prophecy .. good luck with that.

I am actually fine with that "as our difference" between your POV and mine.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Did Agabus or Nathan or Philip's four daughters or those in 1 Cor 14 "write scripture"?

Nathan and many other prophets are mentioned in scripture in both OT and NT who never wrote scripture. None of that sort of thing is mentioned in the Bible for those 300 years.

Right, that's what I'm saying. Not every prophet writes scripture.

So, a 300 year gap in the scripture writing, if that's what happened, doesn't mean there were no prophets during that time.

You could speculate it like that - but we know of prophets like Agabus or Nathan or Philip's four daughters or those in 1 Cor 14 - without any of them writing scripture.

No Bible text says that if there is no prophet at any moment - then the gift of prophecy in the Bible must be deleted.

Still if that is the speculation you like to suppose - you have free will. I am happy to let "that" sort of idea represent how you and I differ on this topic.

 

[Leaf473]

At one point neither is called "THE Sin offering" and neither is called "The SCAPEGOAT" and there is never "TWO JESUSes". Which means "at one point they are just goats".


There are two goats and they play opposing roles.

• One designated as “THE goat of the Sin Offering”
  
• and the other “the Scapegoat”.

But both start out without defect.

1. Jesus as God the Son incarnate. As God the Son always sinless, As incarnated in the form of a man – Jesus Christ – born “without sin”.

2. Lucifer (who became Satan) was “PERFECT in the day you were created UNTIL iniquity was found in you” Ezek 28:15


NKJV Ezek 28: 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

You are free to ignore those details if you wish - you do have free will of course.

Right, at one point neither is called a sin offering, then both are called a sin offering, then only one is a sin offering...

And then there's a bull that's a sin offering.

Any of those can represent Jesus, as can Aaron... Sometimes.

Again, it's a grainy, black and white illustration, a shadow.

One reason why I mentioned shadows flickering in the firelight is that the New testament writers may be using ideas from Plato's allegory of the cave.

When we see shadows, especially ones caused by a fire, they can change.

 

[BobRyan]

And then there's a bull that's a sin offering.

Indeed - notice in the book of Leviticus - all sin offerings are slain for the sin they are substituting for - and this is done BEFORE the sanctuary service work that pertains to that offering.

 

[Leaf473]

Suppose those people live in the OT at the time of another prophet such as Samuel or Isaiah - or during the time of John the baptizer, or the Apostle John or the people in 1 Cor 14.



Indeed - they would not be able to fly and yet those real prophet still "existed" at the same time no matter that someone says such a thing as you imagine above.



Indeed they could say as did Isaiah

Isaiah 40: --
30 Though youths grow weary and tired,
And vigorous young men stumble badly,
31 Yet those who wait for the Lord
Will gain new strength;
They will mount up with wings like eagles,
They will run and not get tired,
They will walk and not become weary.

Surely this is not a "delete the book of Isaiah post" from you -- correct?





hint: - almost every Christian scholar on planet Earth already admits that Adventists are already linked to it.

As I said before if you wish to crusade about with the new idea that the Adventist denomination has no link to a prophet/ prophecy .. good luck with that.

if you wish to crusade about with the new idea that the Adventist denomination cannot be seen by anyone to have any link to a prophet/ prophecy .. good luck with that.

I am actually fine with that "as our difference" between your POV and mine.

You could speculate it like that - but we know of prophets like Agabus or Nathan or Philip's four daughters or those in 1 Cor 14 - without any of them writing scripture.

No Bible text says that if there is no prophet at any moment - then the gift of prophecy in the Bible must be deleted.

Still if that is the speculation you like to suppose - you have free will. I am happy to let "that" sort of idea represent how you and I differ on this topic.

I believe you have misunderstood much of what I wrote.

But no big deal. Thank you for your input.

When a consensus of Adventists agree that someone is currently in the office of prophet, I'll be glad to take a look and see how they are putting that teaching into practice.

Thank you for the discussion!

 

[Leaf473]

Indeed - notice in the book of Leviticus - all sin offerings are slain for the sin they are substituting for - and this is done BEFORE the sanctuary service work that pertains to that offering.

The book of Leviticus contains shadows, shadows which move and change.

Thanks again for the discussion!

 

[BobRyan]

When a consensus of Adventists agree that someone is currently in the office of prophet, I'll be glad to take a look

When you provide a bible text saying that any moment there is not a living prophet then all connection with inspired writing is deleted along with all the Bible texts on the gift prophecy - I will take a look.

Until then - I have soooo many non-SDAs here and on other threads that want to jump into "all Ellen White all the time" posting as soon as the term "Seventh-day Adventist" appears in at thread - that all my time could be more than used up on that alone were I to indulge those guys a bit more than I do. The very last thing I need to do is prove to them that this denomination is connected to the gift of prophecy in some way. They don't even ask me to "name that prophet" - they already know.

you have free will and can champion any cause you wish - have a nice day.

 

[Leaf473]

When you provide a bible text saying that any moment there is not a living prophet then all connection with inspired writing is deleted along with all the Bible texts on the gift prophecy - I will take a look.

Until then - I have soooo many non-SDAs here and on other threads that want to jump into "all Ellen White all the time" posting as soon as the term "Seventh-day Adventist" appears in at thread - that all my time could be more than used up on that alone were I to indulge those guys a bit more than I do. The very last thing I need to do is prove to them that this denomination is connected to the gift of prophecy in some way. They don't even ask me to "name that prophet" - they already know.

you have free will and can champion any cause you wish - have a nice day.

Thank you for your time and the information. Unfortunately, it's not actually what I was talking about.

Hey, may things go well with you too, my man!

The Lord bless you, and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine upon you, and be gracious unto you.
The Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

 

[BobRyan]

The Lord bless you, and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine upon you, and be gracious unto you.
The Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

That is "the family blessing" we use each morning in my home.

"The Lord bless you, and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine upon you, and be gracious unto you.
The Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace
So may He place His name on you and bless you (Numbers 6:24-27)
For the Name of the LORD is a strong tower the righteous run to it and are safe." (Prov 18:10)