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Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

tall73

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She actually did send him and number of corrections -

Please quote where she sent him Bible evidence.

"Ballenger was called to clarify his views before the British Union Conference Committee sometime before the 1905 General Conference Session. After three hours of discussion with a special committee, his positions were rejected and the Conference relieved him of his post as president of the Irish Mission."​

Your source is a bit obscure, and you didn't cite it. However, upon finding it the source refers to Light Bearers to the Remnant. That text indicates that the British Union Conference Committee further sent him before another group.

In any case, Ballenger describes his experience at the trial in his letter to Ellen White in which he asks here to send him Scripture evidence, some time later. It is included in his book.

Full text of "Ballenger, A. F. Cast Out for the Cross of Christ (1909)"

In private conversation with me one took the position that "within the veil" meant within the sanctuary, but did not refer to either apartment. Another asserted at the trial that the term applied to the first apartment as you have interpreted it. The third, compelled by the witnesses quoted above admitted in his answer that the term "within the veil" does apply to the holy of holies, but that it is spoken prophetically, and although the scripture says Christ IS entered "within the veil" we are to understand it to mean that he WILL enter in 1 844. This babel of voices did not help me to see my error, if error it be.

Before publishing my MS. I sent it to several ministers holding official positions,
whose loyalty to the denomination is unquestioned, and asked them out of love for the truth and my soul, to show me from the Scriptures, where I was in error. I promised that should they do this I would never publish the MS.

Not one of these brethren attempted to show me my error from the Word. One wrote thus:

- "Candor compels me to say that I can find no fault with it from a Bible standpoint. The argument seems to be unassailable."

Another said:

- "I have always felt that it was safer to take the interpretation placed upon the
Scriptures by the Spirit of Prophecy as manifested through Sister E.G. White rather than to rely upon my own judgment or interpretation."

This last quotation expresses the attitude of all those who have admitted that my
position seemed to be supported by the Scriptures, but hesitated to accept it.

Honestly, Sister White, I am afraid to act upon this suggestion; because it will place the thousands upon thousands of pages of your writings in books and periodicals between the child of God and God's Book. If this position be true, no noble Berean dare believe any truth, however clearly it may seem to be taught in the Scriptures, until he first consults your writings to see whether it harmonizes with your interpretation. This is the principle always advocated by the Roman church and voiced in the following quotation:

- "Like two sacred rivers flowing from Paradise, the Bible and divine Tradition contain the Word of God. Though these two divine streams are in themselves, on account of their divine origin, of equal sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still of the two, TRADITION is to us more clear and safe." Catholic Belief p. 54.

It was against this putting of an infallible interpreter between the man and his Bible that the Reformation waged its uncompromising war.

The Romanists robbed the individual of his Bible, denouncing the right of "private
interpretation;" while the Reformation handed the Bible back to the individual while denouncing the papal dogma that demands an infallible interpreter between the child of God and his Bible.

The brethren urge me to accept your interpretation of the Scriptures as clearer and safer than what they call my interpretation. But I have not interpreted this Scripture, I have allowed the Lord to do this and have accepted his interpretation. Let me illustrate:

The first mention of the Sabbath in the New Testament is found in Matt. 12:1 . It does not there tell us which day is the Sabbath, assuming that the reader knows which day is referred to, or if not, he will be able to learn from the Old Testament, which day it is. When one turns to Ex. 20:8-12 and reads, "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord," is not that God's interpretation? Has any one the right to reply, "That is your interpretation." Surely not.

In like manner, the first and only instance where the term, "within the veil," is used in the New Testament, is found in Heb. 6:19. It is taken for granted that the reader will know to which apartment the Holy Spirit refers; but if not, the searcher can learn from the Old Testament which place is meant. Now, when I turn to the Old Testament and find that in every instance this term is applied to the holy of holies, can it honestly be charged that this is my interpretation? I have not interpreted it, but have given that honor to the Holy Oracles themselves. And now Sister White, what can I do? If I accept the testimony of the Scriptures, if I follow my conscientious convictions, I find myself under your condemnation; and you call me a wolf in sheep's clothing, and warn my brethren and the members of my family against me. But when I turn in my sorrow to the Word of the Lord, that Word reads the same, and I fear to reject God's interpretation and accept yours. Oh that I might accept both. But if I must accept but one, hadn't I better accept the Lord's? If I reject his word and accept yours, can you save me in the judgment? When side by side we stand before the great white throne; if the Master should ask me why I taught that "within the veil" was in the first apartment of the sanctuary, what shall I answer? Shall I say, "Because Sister White, who claimed to be commissioned to interpret the Scriptures for me, told me that this was the true interpretation, and that if I did not accept it and teach it I would rest under your condemnation?

Oh, Sister White, that this answer might be pleasing unto the Lord. Then would I
surrender to your testimony. Then would you speak words of encouragement to me again. Then would my brethren, with whom I have held sweet counsel, no longer shun me as a leper. Then would I appear again in the great congregation, and we would weep and pray and praise together as before.

But on the other hand should the great and terrible God say to me on that day, "But disobedient servant, WHAT DID I SAY?". Oh what could I answer?

If I surrender my convictions to escape the testimonies of condemnation which you heap upon my head; if I yield the Word of God that I might again enjoy the love and fellowship of my brethren, how can I again look into the face of him who died for me? How could I again lay my Bible open upon my bed, and kneeling, plead for light upon his Word? No, no, I cannot do that. I must go on my pilgrimage alone. And while I would not put myself in the company of Him who was despised and rejected of men, the Man of sorrows, the Man of the lonely life, yet I am comforted in the thought that he knoweth my sorrow and is acquainted with my grief.

Your younger brother in Christ, A.F. BALLENGER. Tropico, Cal.


They did not answer him from Scripture.


Twenty-five years later W. W. Prescott (a member of the GC ad hoc committees appointed to meet with the dissidents) commented in a letter to W. A. Spicer, then president of the General Conference: "I have waited all these years for someone to make an adequate answer to Ballenger, Fletcher and others on their positions re. the sanctuary but I have not seen or heard it." Cottrell's Sanctuary Doctrine—Asset or liability.

And the irony is that later Adventist scholarship actually admit Ballenger's point which he wrote to Ellen White about, regarding "within the veil", and for the same reasons Ballenger presented. They look at the Scriptural usage.


So for instance, here is a quote from the April 2002 Andrews University Seminary Studies by Adventist OT professor Richard Davidson, responding to articles by Adventist professors Roy Gane and Norman Young (from your region, and now retired).


Andrews Unierersity Seminury Studies, S p ~ g 2002, Vol. 10, No. 1,69-88. Copyright * 2002 Andrews University Press.

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1057&context=old-testament-pubs

I appreciate the opportunity to continue the dialogue with my friend and colleague Norman Young over important matters in the book of Hebrews raised by Roy Gane's article and our two responses in recent issues of AUSS.' First of all, I wish to soften the language of the editor in his introduction of our two articles in the last issue of AUSS. The editor writes that I offer a contrasting view to both Gane and Young."' Awkward wording in an earlier draft of my article may have given the editor that impression, but the final (published) draft is, as far as I can determine, in complete harmony with the study by Gane. I agree with Gane that reference by the author of Hebrews to the veil in Heb 6:19-20,following LXX usage, most probably has in view the 'second" veil, i.e., the veil before the Most Holy Place. This was also the major conclusion of Norman Young's article, and thus I find myself in agreement with both Gane and Young in regard to their main point (i.e., the identification of the veil of Heb 6:19) and their basic methodology (recognizing the consistency of the author of Hebrews with LXX usage).

My article actually addressed a further, deeper issue, building upon the previous one: what is the OT background of Heb 6:19-20. I applaud Young for acknowledging in his reply to my article that "this indeed is the real issue." On this issue of background Young and I do come to different conclusions. I see the OT background of Heb 6:19-20 and parallel "entering" passages in Hebrews as inauguration, while Young sees the background as the Day of Atonement.

Young rightly points out that the inauguration background to Heb 6: 19-20 was suggested almost a century ago by E. E. Andross, in his book A More Excellent Ministry. However, Andross based his arguments largely on thematic typological parallels to the O T inauguration services and allusions to these elsewhere in the NT, and did not ground his conclusions in an examination of the intertextual use of key LXX terms by the author of Hebrews. Furthermore, Andross argued that Christ, following his inauguration of the heavenly sanctuary, left its Most Holy Place and sat down at the right hand of the Father on a throne in the Holy Place. Young assumes that "the logic of my position leads to the same conclusion, but in fact I do not concur with Andross on this point. I agree instead with Young, that in Hebrews the "throne of the Majesty in the heavens" (Heb 8:1), the "throne of God" (Heb 1 2 4 , where Christ sat down, most probably should be located in the heavenly equivalent to the Most Holy Place, just as in the earthly sanctuary YHWH was enthroned in the Most Holy Place, above the ark between the cherubim Exod 25:22; Num 7:89; 1 Sam 4:4; 2 Sam 6:2; 2 Kgs 19:l5). But I find attractive the further suggestion of my colleague Roy Gane, who argues that Christ is by no means confined to his position on the throne with the Father in the heavenly equivalent to the Holy of Holies.


All three of them agree that within the veil likely refers to the MHP. This was a key contention of Ballenger, and they now all agree with it.






 
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Leaf473

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Acts 15 shows the church meeting through its representatives does have authority to decide doctrine and practice. Even so - each individual in the church must decide for themselves if they agree that the decision rendered is not in violation of scripture.

In Acts 15 there most certainly were Christian Jews who did not go along with the Acts 15 decision about circumcision and were determine that their own view of what the Bible allowed them to make up and apply to gentiles was in line with what they were doing in regards to circumcision. To against the church on that was not only to affirm their own man-made-tradition over the ruling of the church - it was also to claim that God was not leading the church in it's decision. I suppose they could have hoped to themselves - that the second part of that might be corrected by the church later going back on its Acts 15 decision, but since it did not - they would either have to reject the church as being led by God - or reconsider that possibly their own man-made tradition was indeed in error.

The SDA church does meet corporately once every 5 years to vote through its representatives on key issues of doctrine and practice.
Wait, can you talk about this part some more?

Acts 15 shows the church meeting through its representatives does have authority to decide doctrine and practice. Even so - each individual in the church must decide for themselves if they agree that the decision rendered is not in violation of scripture.

How can the church have the authority to decide doctrine and practice, and then each individual be responsible for deciding if the church's decision was correct or not?
 
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Leaf473

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By stating that all TEN of the TEN commandments are part of the "moral law of God" (as they did)
and by saying that "A change was made" - they are applying the same 4th commandment moral authority to a 'different day' - and calling it "Christian Sabbath" to distinguish it from the unchanged form as given in scripture.



I myself to find it "instructive" to note that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations on BOTH sides of that Sabbath topic do agree to the glaringly obvious Bible details so simple that they can all see it even though they have other strong differences on the topic.




Not just the Baptists, also D.L. Moody, and the Presbyterians, Church of England etc
http://www.goodnewspres.org/uploads/7/4/0
/6/74063459/study_guide_for_the_westminster_confession_of_faith.pdf

So then D.L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul and many others take that same position as does the Catholic church, and Orthodox church.

But if you go to the Sabbath-and-the-Law forum you will find that about 100% of the threads where people post against the Sabbath - are all opposing all those confession of faith and all those denominations on the very point where Bible scholars are in agreement.
I think it would be interesting to know which of those theologians believe that they are following Sola scriptura and just using a different interpretation,
and which ones believe that their current practice of the fourth commandment is based on the authority of the church.
 
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BobRyan

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Your source is a bit obscure, and you didn't cite it. However, upon finding it the source refers to Light Bearers to the Remnant.


From: Open Face No. 7 – November 1998 – Restoration Ministries

“Ballenger suggested several revisions of the doctrine regarding the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, stating that the book of Hebrews taught that Christ had entered the Most Holy Place at His ascension rather than 1844. He submitted a document of nine theses which outlined the main points of his views on the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary to a committee at the 1905 General Conference Session and answered their questions. The committee, composed of W.A. Colcord, W.W. Prescott and M.C. Wilcox, rejected Ballenger’s views and warned him not to print the manuscript or promote his views.”​


From: The Final Atonement – Conclusion - Steps to Life

Elder E. W. Farnsworth, who was also working in England with Ballenger and Andross at the time, reported on Ballenger’s erroneous teachings in a letter addressed “to the General Conference president, who in turn conveyed
the information to W. C. White on
March 16, 1905.” Arthur L. White, EGW: The Early Elmshaven Years, vol. 5, 407:

“There was another feature of the meeting which was really sad to me. Brother Ballenger has got into a condition of mind which would seem to me to unfit him entirely to preach the message.

Farnsworth stated further that, in his own mind, Ballenger felt that “there is an irreconcilable difference” between his theories and Ellen White. “This, of course, involves the authenticity of the Testimonies and practically upsets them,” Farnsworth concluded. Ibid.

“Farnsworth reported that a number of Adventist ministers in Great Britain were taking up these new views on the sanctuary, and confusion was coming in,” Arthur White observed. He stated further that, “Early in the 1905 session Ballenger laid before the leading brethren what he felt was new light, but they were unable to accept his reasoning and pointed out the errors in his application of Scripture.” Ibid.
From: http://www.lmn.org/articles/Universal Justification and Demise of a Preacher.pdf#:~:text=Ballenger was called to clarify his views before,his post as president of the Irish Mission.3


"Ballenger was called to clarify his views before the British Union Conference Committee sometime before the 1905 General Conference Session. After three hours of discussion with a special committee, his positions were rejected and the Conference relieved him of his post as president of the Irish Mission."
========================

Your less-than-compelling response appears to be that after debating his own conference leadership for 3 hours ... he was not also going into a debate with Ellen White???

seriously??
 
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BobRyan

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How can the church have the authority to decide doctrine and practice, and then each individual be responsible for deciding if the church's decision was correct or not?

easy - 2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Does not say "your church committee will stand in the place of each one and defend your choice of doctrine". The "books opened" in Dan 7 will show the choice and action of "each person" for themselves.

Everyone has free will - everyone always chooses for themselves as we see in the case of the faithful that accepted the Acts 15 decision vs the heretics that rejected it. Each person has to choose for themselves.
 
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BobRyan

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All three of them agree that within the veil likely refers to the MHP. This was a key contention of Ballenger, and they now all agree with it.

and they are wrong. The Bible says there are two veils and they are not both at the boundary between Holy Place and MHP.

Heb 9:3 "Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Most Holy Place"


Your "should probably" argument is less then compelling -

I agree instead with Young, that in Hebrews the "throne of the Majesty in the heavens" (Heb 8:1), the "throne of God" (Heb 1 2 4 , where Christ sat down, most probably should be located in the heavenly equivalent to the Most Holy Place

"most probably"??? seriously?

No wonder all they get is a "probably" trying to get that same book , same author to wrench-bend "veil" into "Second Veil" in Heb 6

Heb 6:17 In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Does not say "Most Holy Place" in Heb 6, and does not say "second veil" in Heb 6.

To bend-wrench-torque that "second veil" into Heb 6 - you need a fuzzy "most probably" or "should probably" insert.

==================

I did wait a while for this one to come up.
 
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BobRyan

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In any case, Ballenger describes his experience at the trial

I have to admit that Ballenger is one of the more interesting holy flesh fanatics to arise during that time. Even so I am not sold on trusting in his supposedly "pristine" objectivity and accuracy in reporting exactly what happen for all those 3 hours as he debated his own Conference leadership and explained his own POV.

Farnsworth on the other hand - was not a holy flesh fanatic

“Farnsworth reported that a number of Adventist ministers in Great Britain were taking up these new views on the sanctuary, and confusion was coming in,” Arthur White observed. He stated further that, “Early in the 1905 session Ballenger laid before the leading brethren what he felt was new light, but they were unable to accept his reasoning and pointed out the errors in his application of Scripture.” Ibid.

And of course I already "notice" the scripture that refutes Ballenger's suggestions here -
59 minutes ago #186
 
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tall73

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and they are wrong. The Bible says there are two veils and they are not both at the boundary between Holy Place and MHP.

Heb 9:3 "Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Most Holy Place"


Your "should probably" argument is less then compelling -



"most probably"??? seriously?

No wonder all they get is a "probably" trying to get that same book , same author to wrench-bend "veil" into "Second Veil" in Heb 6

Bob, it is not my "probably" but Adventist Scholars "probably." You should really talk to the GC Bretheren about all the heretics they have at the institutions of learning who insist on looking at the biblical usage for terms. Gane, Andross, Young, Davidson, all agreed with Ballenger on this point. And Andross was the one selected to respond to him.

Gane, and the rest are all aware that there is more than one veil. Here is a selection from Gane's article:

Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2000, Vol. 38, No. 1 , 5-8
Copyright @ 2000 by Andrews University Press.
RE-OPENING KA TAPETASMA ("VEIL")
IN HEBREWS 6:19
ROY E. GAN


upload_2021-11-12_11-0-37.png



They also note the reference to the Jesus' entry in the context of His being High Priest.


And of course, they all believe, what Andross pointed out, that Jesus inaugurated at His ascension. I seem to recall you agreeing that Jesus inaugurated at His ascension. The inauguration involved the whole sanctuary, both compartments. If you believe Jesus inaugurated, then you agree with them that Jesus entered the MHP. Otherwise He could not have inaugurated.

Andross agreed with Ballenger. He conceded that Jesus went into the MHP, but contended it was to inaugurate. By agreeing with Ballenger on within the veil he put forth some novel arguments for Adventists at the time. But Adventist scholars have now been compelled to agree by the Bible text that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place.
 
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tall73

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He submitted a document of nine theses which outlined the main points of his views on the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary to a committee at the 1905 General Conference Session and answered their questions. The committee, composed of W.A. Colcord, W.W. Prescott and M.C. Wilcox, rejected Ballenger’s views and warned him not to print the manuscript or promote his views.”

You apparently didn't read all the material I posted earlier very thoroughly. Ballenger claims they did not in fact address all of his questions biblically. But someone else agreed with him. One of those three you referenced:

Twenty-five years later W. W. Prescott (a member of the GC ad hoc committees appointed to meet with the dissidents) commented in a letter to W. A. Spicer, then president of the General Conference: "I have waited all these years for someone to make an adequate answer to Ballenger, Fletcher and others on their positions re. the sanctuary but I have not seen or heard it." Cottrell's
Sanctuary Doctrine—Asset or liability.
 
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tall73

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Your less-than-compelling response appears to be that after debating his own conference leadership for 3 hours ... he was not also going into a debate with Ellen White???

seriously??

My response is that even Prescott agreed they did not answer his questions. Andross, who was to respond to him, agreed with him on within the veil. And he wrote to Ellen White because she had written testimonies against him, and he wanted her to point out from Scripture where he was wrong.
 
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tall73

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I have to admit that Ballenger is one of the more interesting holy flesh fanatics to arise during that time. Even so I am not sold on trusting in his supposedly "pristine" objectivity and accuracy in reporting exactly what happen for all those 3 hours as he debated his own Conference leadership and explained his own POV.

Do you believe Prescott regarding the inability of even the selected GC representatives to answer?

Do you believe Andreason?

If my experience as a teacher in the Seminary may be taken as a criterion, I would say that a large number of our ministers have serious doubt as to the correctness of the views we hold on certain phases of the sanctuary. They believe, in a general way, that we are correct, but they are as fully assured that Ballenger's views have never been fully met and that we cannot meet them. Not wishing to make the matter an issue, they simply decide that the question is not vital - and thus the whole subject of the sanctuary is relegated, in their minds at least, to the background. This is not a wholesome situation. If the subject is as vital as we have thought and taught it to be, it is not of secondary importance. Today, in the minds of a considerable part of the ministry, as far as my experience in the Seminary is concerned, it has little vital bearing, either in their lives or theology. I dread to see the day when our enemies will make capital of our weakness. I dread still more to see the day when our ministry will begin to raise questions. M. L. Andreason letter, 1942.
 
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tall73

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She actually did send him and number of corrections

BobRyan said:

She actually did send him and number of corrections -


Tall73 said:

Please quote where she sent him Bible evidence.

You apparently discovered what the DARCOM volume on Hebrews acknowledges, that Ellen White condemned his views, but didn't spell out specifics. So instead you reference others, but even Prescott acknowledges they didn't answer it. And Andross, tasked with responding, wound up agreeing with Ballenger regarding within the veil.




 
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Leaf473

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easy - 2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Does not say "your church committee will stand in the place of each one and defend your choice of doctrine". The "books opened" in Dan 7 will show he choice and action of "each person" for themselves.

Everyone has free will - everyone always chooses for themselves as we see in the case of the faithful that accepted the Acts 15 decision vs the heretics that rejected it. Each person has to choose for themselves.
Okay, I think I see what you're saying now.

The church has the authority to decide doctrine. But then it's up to each individual to decide if they will accept it or not.

Am I understanding what you're saying?
 
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BobRyan

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Okay, I think I see what you're saying now.

The church has the authority to decide doctrine. But then it's up to each individual to decide if they will accept it or not.

Am I understanding what you're saying?

True when it comes to accepting or rejecting what your church council says - at the end of the day each person stands or falls for themselves before God - no church council will take their place.

Rom 14
For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord, to Me every knee will bow,
And every tongue will give praise to God.”
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

So then the "protesting Catholics" found their own church councils to have made some poor decisions - as Christ also pointed out about the church councils of his day - in Mark 7:6-13 so he did not accept that part that was in error.

But as we see in Acts 15 -- that does not mean that all church councils are in error. Acts 15 is a case where church a council makes the right decision and is a benefit to the church - but only for those who accept it.

Acts 17:11 does not say "they sought out their church council to see if Paul was right or wrong".
 
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BobRyan

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From: Open Face No. 7 – November 1998 – Restoration Ministries

“Ballenger suggested several revisions of the doctrine regarding the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, stating that the book of Hebrews taught that Christ had entered the Most Holy Place at His ascension rather than 1844. He submitted a document of nine theses which outlined the main points of his views on the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary to a committee at the 1905 General Conference Session and answered their questions. The committee, composed of W.A. Colcord, W.W. Prescott and M.C. Wilcox, rejected Ballenger’s views and warned him not to print the manuscript or promote his views.”​


From: The Final Atonement – Conclusion - Steps to Life

Elder E. W. Farnsworth, who was also working in England with Ballenger and Andross at the time, reported on Ballenger’s erroneous teachings in a letter addressed “to the General Conference president, who in turn conveyed
the information to W. C. White on
March 16, 1905.” Arthur L. White, EGW: The Early Elmshaven Years, vol. 5, 407:

“There was another feature of the meeting which was really sad to me. Brother Ballenger has got into a condition of mind which would seem to me to unfit him entirely to preach the message.

Farnsworth stated further that, in his own mind, Ballenger felt that “there is an irreconcilable difference” between his theories and Ellen White. “This, of course, involves the authenticity of the Testimonies and practically upsets them,” Farnsworth concluded. Ibid.

“Farnsworth reported that a number of Adventist ministers in Great Britain were taking up these new views on the sanctuary, and confusion was coming in,” Arthur White observed. He stated further that, “Early in the 1905 session Ballenger laid before the leading brethren what he felt was new light, but they were unable to accept his reasoning and pointed out the errors in his application of Scripture.” Ibid.
From: http://www.lmn.org/articles/Universal Justification and Demise of a Preacher.pdf#:~:text=Ballenger was called to clarify his views before,his post as president of the Irish Mission.3


"Ballenger was called to clarify his views before the British Union Conference Committee sometime before the 1905 General Conference Session. After three hours of discussion with a special committee, his positions were rejected and the Conference relieved him of his post as president of the Irish Mission."
========================

Your less-than-compelling response appears to be that after debating his own conference leadership for 3 hours ... he was not also going into a debate with Ellen White???

seriously??

My post shows that Ballenger spent 3 hours discussing his views with his own Conference leadership and they eventually decide against his suggestions which he would not yield o - so they relieved him of his Admin post as president of the church mission in Ireland.

I end with this --

Your less-than-compelling response appears to be that after debating his own conference leadership for 3 hours ... he was not also going into a debate with Ellen White???

BobRyan said:

She actually did send him and number of corrections -

True but she never asked for a debate. He engaged in those discussions with his own Conference leadership.

(Is this really boiling down to endless administrivia in the case of the leading holy flesh fanatic - Ballenger in the early 1900's ??)
 
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Leaf473

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True when it comes to accepting or rejecting what your church council says - at the end of the day each person stands or falls for themselves before God - no church council will take their place.

Rom 14
For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord, to Me every knee will bow,
And every tongue will give praise to God.”
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

So then the "protesting Catholics" found their own church councils to have made some poor decisions - as Christ also pointed out about the church councils of his day - in Mark 7:6-13 so he did not accept that part that was in error.

But as we see in Acts 15 -- that does not mean that all church councils are in error. Acts 15 is a case where church a council makes the right decision and is a benefit to the church - but only for those who accept it.

Acts 17:11 does not say "they sought out their church council to see if Paul was right or wrong".
Are you saying that church councils can be in error?
 
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tall73

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My post shows that Ballenger spent 3 hours discussing his views with his own Conference leadership and they eventually decide against his suggestions which he would not yield o - so they relieved him of his Admin post as president of the church mission in Ireland.

I end with this --

Your less-than-compelling response appears to be that after debating his own conference leadership for 3 hours ... he was not also going into a debate with Ellen White???



True but she never asked for a debate. He engaged in those discussions with his own Conference leadership.

(Is this really boiling down to endless administrivia in the case of the leading holy flesh fanatic - Ballenger in the early 1900's ??)

Bob, I see you didn't address that Prescott never heard the bretheren give him good answers. Andross, the one from his own area that wrote a book responding to him not only didn't give good answers against his position on within the veil, but conceded the point totally.

If Ellen White was going to write many testimonies condemning him she should have corrected him by showing his error. Instead she told others not to entertain those who bring such views, even if they bring Scripture.

I also see that you didn't address the inauguration. You believe Jesus inaugurated don't you? If so, you agree with Davidson, Gane, Andross, Young, and even Ballenger in saying that Jesus did enter the MHP at His ascension, because the inauguration involved the whole sanctuary.
 
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tall73

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Are you saying that church councils can be in error?

Some selections from Ellen White to discuss:

I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered. Your error was in persistently maintaining your private judgment of your duty against the voice of the highest authority the Lord has upon the earth. After you had taken your own time, and after the work had been much hindered by your delay, you came to Battle Creek in answer to the repeated and urgent calls of the General Conference. You firmly maintained that you had done right in following your own convictions of duty. You considered it a virtue in you to persistently maintain your position of independence. You did not seem to have a true sense of the power that God has given to His church in the voice of the General Conference. You thought that in responding to the call made to you by the General Conference you were submitting to the judgment and mind of one man. You accordingly manifested an independence, a set, willful spirit, which was all wrong. Testimonies for the Church Volume 3, chapter 44

I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body. {9T 260.1}Testimonies for the Church Volume 9, Section 8

You are constantly inclined to individual independence. You do not realize that independence is a poor thing when it leads you to have too much confidence in yourself and to trust to your own judgment rather than to respect the counsel and highly estimate the judgment of your brethren, especially of those in the offices which God has appointed for the saving of His people. God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for in so doing he despises the voice of God. Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3
 
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BobRyan

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Do you believe Andreason? .

Andreason did not accept the full scope of teaching on the sinless nature of Christ - so I am not entirely bought into the idea that "anything Adreason thought must be without flaw". That's me being a "Moderate SDA" - fully accepting the Fundamental Beliefs but not far-right or far-left.

Bob, I see you didn't address that Prescott never heard the bretheren give him good answers .

Prescott never used the term "good answers" that I know of in relation to Ballanger. Prescott was looking for a scholarly paper not simply "good Bible answers to Ballenger"
 
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BobRyan

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If Ellen White was going to write many testimonies condemning him she should have corrected him by showing his error. .

He was after all very open to correction of that sort - as his leadership in the highly fanatical holy flesh movement proves. I guess that is a "kind of logic" one could get to if they ignore enough of these details.

For me it is sufficient that he first outs himself on holy flesh fanatacism then debates his own conference leadership for 3 hours without any sign of backing down.

Well fine - he has free will - he was left to his own devices after that and it appears that it was for good reason. Ohh the wonders of administrivia.

I like Bible study (Much preferred) - but still these little administration details are a tiny bit interesting. Not sure how other non-SDAs like tracking through all of that though. Maybe this sort of "Who met with who for 3 hours - over one hundred years ago" is something they too would prefer to discuss rather than the Bible topics themselves.
 
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