Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[BobRyan]

You need to find investigation in here. And it is not there.

We see that in the Day of Atonement service where the Dan 7 investigation out of "books opened" when "the court sits" Dan 7:9-10 and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 because judgment that is based on books opened is about the individual and the deeds recorded in the books that are opened. (As we already saw repeatedly in previous posts Oct 22, 2021 #62 ) .

May 14, 2021 #3
Nov 27, 2020 #1


The judgment solution in Dan 7 corresponds to the cleansing of the sanctuary "solution" in Dan 8 at the end of the 2300 years)

============================

Judgment based out of records in book of heaven - is Individual judgment -


Daniel 7 shows that the judgment that happens before the 2nd coming - happens in heaven.

Rev 21 reminds us - God's throne is not on Earth until after the 1000

1. God's Throne is in heaven according to what they already knew at the time of Dan 7.

Psalm 11:4
The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven;

1 Kings 22:19
Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left.

2. Dan 7:21-22 The the saints are persecuted by the wicked until that judgment event is completed - which can only happen if the judgment is not on Earth.

Dan 7
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.
.. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One,


24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face became pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”

================== When "books are opened" -- individuals are judged

Rev 20:

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.​

Dan 7:

10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.​

2 Cor 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.​

Rom 2:

2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

...
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.​

The "Law written on the heart" is the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant (as Paul reminds us in Heb 8:6-12.) And as he says in Rom 2 of that new heart "circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit"

The individual judgment of Romans 2:4-16 that is future to Paul's day - is necessarily a part of the detail for the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment that is based on the books of records "being opened" and the court sits. Rev 20 points out that when people are judged out of books opened in heaven's court - it is deeds of each person that are judged.

Rev 20:12-13

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.​

As Christ said in Matt 7:

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.​

 

[BobRyan]

The day of atonement....made atonement, for the sanctuary AND for the people.

True - but individual sins were already atoned for and forgiven in the daily service.

Lev 4: The Daily service where individuals confess sins, and claim blood sacrifice atonement - and receive forgiveness -- all during the ceremonial year.

27 ‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 31 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32 ‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering. 34 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 35 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

Salvation is bestowed as part of the individual interaction with the high priest during the daily service.

This is the every-day service where Christ as our High Priest claims His blood as that which purchases forgiveness for our sins.

But the second part of that process where the sanctuary the altar and all of the process is atoned for happens as part of the "Day of Atonement" judgment. In that process "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 ... it does not say "they create saints" but rather that there already are saints and judgment is passed in their favor.

No individuals confess sins or ask for forgiveness in the Day of Atonement process of Lev 16.

 

[BobRyan]

In the daily we have this --

1. The Priest/HighPriest: is a symbol of Christ our High Priest
2. The daily is a symbol of the daily service – first phase of Sanctuary service
3. The altar of sacrifice: a symbol of the cross
4. Angels as images on the curtain and the ark; a symbol for real observers in the sanctuary in heaven
5. Blood brought to the sanctuary (either by sprinkling or eating the sacrifice and then entering the sanctuary) – record of sin of the individual entered in heaven

a. Christ in heaven claiming His blood case by case for individual sins for those who confess and repent​

But in the pr-advent judgment done in the Lev 16 Day of Atonement - we have the "books opened" and "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 As Romans 2 also points out in that judgment future to Paul's day.



from: Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom.

Judgment Day

“The Day of Atonement is the Holiest day of the Biblical year. It is a day of intense prayer, fasting and calling out to God for mercy and grace. It is a day for doing business with God. It is a day for coming face to face with God.

Yom Kippur comes just ten days after Rosh Hashanah. Ten days prior to Yom Kippur, the Torah commands us to blow the shofar on Rosh Hashanah. One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is as a warning that a period of judgment has begun. According to Jewish tradition, the Gates of heaven swing open on Rosh Hashanah. The Heavenly Court is convened on Rosh Hashanah. The Books of Judgement opened on Rosh Hashanah. The heavenly ledgers are scrutinized on Rosh Hashanah.

...


What is Atonement?

In discussing the Day of Atonement it is helpful to accurately define the word "Atonement." Contrary to popular Christian teaching, atonement does not mean forgiveness of sin (though forgiveness may be an aspect of atonement). It is from the Hebrew word kaphar which means, "covering".

Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom.

Notice in the above link:

What is Atonement?

In discussing the Day of Atonement it is helpful to accurately define the word "Atonement." Contrary to popular Christian teaching, atonement does not mean forgiveness of sin (though forgiveness may be an aspect of atonement). It is from the Hebrew word kaphar which means, "covering".

Adventists have changed the type. Instead of a provision of blood for all their sins, Adventists have posited that the high priest is reviewing individual cases from books. But as can be seen above, it was not books that were pictured, but an application of cleansing blood.

The idea that one can blame Adventists for what is taught about Yom Kippur --- is a bit of a stretch even for the most strict of anti-Adventists.

 

[tall73]

Notice, this "more Bible" quote doesn't show books or investigation on the Day of Atonement. What was done by the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was cleansing application of blood.

You need to find investigation in here. And it is not there.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

We see that in the Day of Atonement service where the Dan 7 investigation out of "books opened" when "the court sits" Dan 7:9-10 and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 because judgment that is based on books opened is about the individual and the deeds recorded in the books that are opened. (As we already saw repeatedly in previous posts Oct 22, 2021 #62 ) .

May 14, 2021 #3
Nov 27, 2020 #1


The judgment solution in Dan 7 corresponds to the cleansing of the sanctuary "solution" in Dan 8 at the end of the 2300 years)

============================

Judgment based out of records in book of heaven - is Individual judgment -


Daniel 7 shows that the judgment that happens before the 2nd coming - happens in heaven.

Rev 21 reminds us - God's throne is not on Earth until after the 1000

1. God's Throne is in heaven according to what they already knew at the time of Dan 7.

Psalm 11:4
The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven;

1 Kings 22:19
Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left.

2. Dan 7:21-22 The the saints are persecuted by the wicked until that judgment event is completed - which can only happen if the judgment is not on Earth.

Dan 7
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.
.. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One,


24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face became pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”

================== When "books are opened" -- individuals are judged

Rev 20:

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.​

Dan 7:

10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.​

2 Cor 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.​

Rom 2:

2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

...
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.​

The "Law written on the heart" is the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant (as Paul reminds us in Heb 8:6-12.) And as he says in Rom 2 of that new heart "circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit"

The individual judgment of Romans 2:4-16 that is future to Paul's day - is necessarily a part of the detail for the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment that is based on the books of records "being opened" and the court sits. Rev 20 points out that when people are judged out of books opened in heaven's court - it is deeds of each person that are judged.

Rev 20:12-13

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.​

As Christ said in Matt 7:

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.​

Hey Bob, you posted a lot of texts. But you didn't point out where the high priest investigated individual cases in the type on the Day of Atonement. You need to do that if you are claiming the Day of Atonement involved investigation of individual cases.

The type does not picture the high priest judging cases. It pictures a cleansing application for blood. So again, show me in the type, describing the Day of Atonement, where there is individual examination of cases.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

If you claim all those other texts are the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement, then you have to show how the Day of Atonement showed the high priest in the sanctuary investigating individual cases. He did not.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said: ↑

The day of atonement....made atonement, for the sanctuary AND for the people.

True - but individual sins were already atoned for and forgiven in the daily service.

Exactly! Forgiven and atoned for, not transferred. That is exactly what happened in the sin offerings that happened during the regular operation of the sanctuary.

Every picture of blood is for atonement. That is the purpose of the blood Bob:

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

And so every application of blood pictures atonement. It does not transfer. It does not leave a record. It atones. That is its job. And the reason that is its job is that it represents Jesus' shed blood for us. Jesus died for our sins. He paid the price. The wages of sin is death. He died for us. We either accept it or we die for our own sins.

So the sin offering is a picture of atonement for a single sin, for a single person, picturing confession of that sin.

And the sin offering of the Day of Atonement pictured the once for all sacrifice of Jesus which was the propitiation of the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is sufficient for all who believe.

Lev 4: The Daily service where individuals confess sins, and claim blood sacrifice atonement - and receive forgiveness -- all during the ceremonial year.

They did so on the Day of Atonement as well. They had to afflict themselves.

Salvation is bestowed as part of the individual interaction with the high priest during the daily service.

Salvation is bestowed by the blood of Christ, which all the various sin offerings point to, including the sin offering on the Day of Atonement.

But the second part of that process where the sanctuary the altar and all of the process is atoned for happens as part of the "Day of Atonement" judgment.

Bob, there are a number of problems with this statement.

a. Blood made atonement in the holy place in the sin offerings throughout the year as well. Blood is always about atonement, not transfer.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

b. The Day of Atonement made atonement for PEOPLE as well as the sanctuary:

Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

c. You insert judgment of individual cases into the Day of Atonement, but that is not stated. Instead it was blood for atonement.

In that process "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 ... it does not say "they create saints" but rather that there already are saints and judgment is passed in their favor.

Bob, you haven't pointed to judgment on cases in the Day of Atonement type. So saying that Daniel 7 is picturing the Day of Atonement doesn't follow at all. You have changed the type.

The type was blood for atonement.

No individuals confess sins or ask for forgiveness in the Day of Atonement process of Lev 16.

They must afflict themselves Bob.

Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.

Both the sin offering for each sin, and the sin offering for all the sins on the Day of Atonement, are blood atonement. They are showing aspects of Jesus' once for all blood atonement.

 

[tall73]

In the daily we have this --

BobRyan said: ↑

1. The Priest/HighPriest: is a symbol of Christ our High Priest
2. The daily is a symbol of the daily service – first phase of Sanctuary service

We agree Jesus is our true High Priest.

The sin offerings which took place throughout the year, on every day, were atonement for sins. They are not a "phase". They are one picture of the results of Jesus' blood. They forgave and made atonement, per the text, and the blood offering made atonement in the holy place, per the text:

Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

This atonement for the person and the holy place is the same thing that happens on a massive scale in the Day of Atonement.

Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

Both are atonement for the person and the holy place. The sin offering throughout the year illustrates confession and atonement for one sin. The sin offering on the Day of Atonement shows one sacrifice providing atonement for all the sins of all the people.

Both are pictures of what Jesus' blood does. It atones for each sin. It atones for all sins of those who have faith.

3. The altar of sacrifice: a symbol of the cross

Agreed

4. Angels as images on the curtain and the ark; a symbol for real observers in the sanctuary in heaven

Not just observers Bob, but worshipers. Everyone around the throne of God worships.

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”

5. Blood brought to the sanctuary (either by sprinkling or eating the sacrifice and then entering the sanctuary) – record of sin of the individual entered in heaven

No Bob. You have not shown from the type that the blood is a record of sin. The blood is for atonement and forgiveness, just as it says.

You have not found your text that says that blood transfers sin, or is a record of sins. You only found texts that say that the blood in the sin offering and the sin offering on the Day of Atonement atone. That is the purpose of the blood:

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

a. Christ in heaven claiming His blood case by case for individual sins for those who confess and repent

Yes, Christ claims the merits of the already shed and presented blood for each individual as they confess.

But He already made the entry by means of blood, obtaining eternal redemption. Now He dispenses the benefits of that completed blood work.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

But in the pr-advent judgment done in the Lev 16 Day of Atonement

You just changed the type again:

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

Leviticus 16 doesn't show the high priest going in to investigate cases. It shows blood taken in to make atonement for the people and the sanctuary.

 

[tall73]

from: Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom.

Judgment Day

“The Day of Atonement is the Holiest day of the Biblical year. It is a day of intense prayer, fasting and calling out to God for mercy and grace. It is a day for doing business with God. It is a day for coming face to face with God.

Bob, did you note they ask for mercy and grace, and fast, and pray, and call out to God? This is in line with the text:

Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.

Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”

Yom Kippur comes just ten days after Rosh Hashanah. Ten days prior to Yom Kippur, the Torah commands us to blow the shofar on Rosh Hashanah. One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is as a warning that a period of judgment has begun. According to Jewish tradition, the Gates of heaven swing open on Rosh Hashanah. The Heavenly Court is convened on Rosh Hashanah. The Books of Judgement opened on Rosh Hashanah. The heavenly ledgers are scrutinized on Rosh Hashanah.

Hey Bob, did you notice they base "that a period of judgment has begun", and "the books of judgment opened" on "according to Jewish tradition". That is because it does not say that in the text. It says it in their tradition.

Now this is a thread not on Jewish tradition testing, but Scripture testing. So I will need you to show me in the text where it describes judgment on cases:

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

It shows atonement by blood.

What is Atonement?

In discussing the Day of Atonement it is helpful to accurately define the word "Atonement." Contrary to popular Christian teaching, atonement does not mean forgiveness of sin (though forgiveness may be an aspect of atonement). It is from the Hebrew word kaphar which means, "covering".

Yes Bob, covering. Jesus' blood covers our sins. His death paid for our death. Both the sin offering each time one sinned and the sin offering on the Day of Atonement point to that.

The idea that one can blame Adventists for what is taught about Yom Kippur --- is a bit of a stretch even for the most strict of anti-Adventists.

Bob, I don't blame Adventists for "Jewish Tradition". I just blame you for appealing to Jewish tradition because the Scripture description of the Day of Atonement in the type doesn't say what you claim.

Do Adventists test all things by Scripture, or by Jewish tradition?

The type is blood for atonement, not investigation of cases:

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, did you note they ask for mercy and grace, and fast, and pray, and call out to God? This is in line with the text:

Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.

Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”

Is it your claim that we should inform God that this is not something we want to do?

 

[BobRyan]

Hey Bob, did you notice they base "that a period of judgment has begun", and "the books of judgment opened" on "according to Jewish tradition". That is because it does not say that in the text. It says it in their tradition.

And in Dan 7:9-10,22 the Bible shows judgment is the solution for the saints, but in Dan 8 that same solution is called the "cleansing of the Sanctuary" -- the Day of Atonement. I am not too disturbed by the fact that Jews admit to that same connection between judgment and the Day of Atonement - that the Bible shows us in Dan 7 and 8.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes Bob, covering. Jesus' blood covers our sins. His death paid for our death.

And the daily service is where the blood sacrifice is claimed for each individual sin as the sinner interacts with the High Priest. Receiving both atonement and forgiveness for specific sin - i.e. -- salvation all during the daily service work of the High Priest

[QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 76355936, member: 235244"
Lev 4: The Daily service where individuals confess sins, and claim blood sacrifice atonement - and receive forgiveness -- all during the ceremonial year.

27 ‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 31 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32 ‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering. 34 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 35 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven. .[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

1. The Priest/HighPriest: is a symbol of Christ our High Priest

2. The daily is a symbol of the daily service – first phase of Sanctuary service
3. The altar of sacrifice: a symbol of the cross
4. Angels as images on the curtain and the ark; a symbol for real observers in the sanctuary in heaven
5. Blood brought to the sanctuary (either by sprinkling or eating the sacrifice and then entering the sanctuary) – record of sin of the individual entered in heaven

a. Christ in heaven claiming His blood case by case for individual sins for those who confess and repent​

No Bob. You have not shown from the type that the blood is a record of sin. The blood is for atonement and forgiveness, just as it says.

The daily service shows it is for atonement and forgiveness of "specific sin".

Jesus is not sprinkling blood (the type) - but rather pleading His blood sacrifice be applied in our behalf - for specific sin.

5. Type: Blood brought to the sanctuary (either by sprinkling or eating the sacrifice and then entering the sanctuary) – record of sin of the individual entered in heaven
a. AntiType: Christ in heaven claiming His blood case by case for individual sins for those who confess and repent

 

[tall73]

Is it your claim that we should inform God that this is not something we want to do?

My claim is that there is interaction on the part of the people during the Day of Atonement, which you denied. They afflict themselves.

 

[tall73]

And in Dan 7:9-10,22 the Bible shows judgment is the solution for the saints, but in Dan 8 that same solution is called the "cleansing of the Sanctuary" -- the Day of Atonement. I am not too disturbed by the fact that Jews admit to that same connection between judgment and the Day of Atonement - that the Bible shows us in Dan 7 and 8.

They got it from tradition Bob, by their own admission.

And if you could show the investigation of individual cases by the high priest in the sanctuary in the type of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16 you would be showing that, instead of quoting Jewish tradition.

Without that you are just reinventing the type, then finding that reinvention.

 

[tall73]

5. Type: Blood brought to the sanctuary (either by sprinkling or eating the sacrifice and then entering the sanctuary) – record of sin of the individual entered in heaven

The blood of the sin offering did not transfer but atoned and forgave Bob. It specifically says blood brought in made atonement in the holy place. This is the opposite of your claim.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

 

[tall73]

The daily service shows it is for atonement and forgiveness of "specific sin".

Jesus is not sprinkling blood (the type) - but rather pleading His blood sacrifice be applied in our behalf - for specific sin.

Jesus already applied all the blood. He entered once for all by means of His own blood, and appeared in God's presence for us obtaining eternal redemption.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

His actions are shown to have in the past tense cleansed the heavenly things, not transferred sin.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

The blood cleanses Bob, not defiles. It atones.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

The priest standing daily offering the same sacrifices refers to the blood ministration.

Chapter 4 relates the procedures for the sin offerings. The priest is not the one that kills the animal. The person would kill the animal themselves and then the priest would minister the blood. It was after the blood was ministered that atonement occurred.

Jesus not only died as the sacrifice but offered the blood as priest for His once for all sacrifice, then sat down, in contrast to the earthly priest who had to keep ministering sacrifices again and again that never took away sins.

 

[Leaf473]

really??

Yes, that's what I thought you were saying.

Were there authoritative councils between Acts 15 and 1863, in the SDA view?

 

[Leaf473]

I don't remember posting that.

But I do agree that no church council (Acts 15, or 1860's or 1960's or 2020's...) can contradict scripture and then claim to be correct in doing so. Which means if you are addressing something I posted you are off on the wrong foot looking for some council that was setup to negate scripture or contradict scripture.



There is no statement by any NT writer saying "we will not know what scripture actually is for another 200 years".

Josephus said the OT was canonized 400 years before Christ and Christ's teaching was said to be from "all of scriptures" in Luke 24. So the NT saints were not in the business of saying "We have no clue what scripture is".

Act 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

Paul and Peter both confirm that their writings - their teaching was already being accepted as scripture.

no waiting.

============

Later church councils do not claim to have "come up with scripture" but rather to affirm what was already accepted as scripture.

I think the issue usually comes up when we talk about how lots of respected theologians say that all 10 of The commandments are for today. If I remember right, we were discussing this earlier on this thread. Here's one post where I bring up the question of the authority of the church:

I think it would be interesting to know which of those theologians believe that they are following Sola scriptura and just using a different interpretation,
and which ones believe that their current practice of the fourth commandment is based on the authority of the church.

I'll try addressing the same issue with some different questions:

A) Who do you trust to say what is scripture and what is not? For example, is the book of James scripture? At least one early church said no. Is the book of Wisdom scripture? Again, at least one early church said yes.

B) Whatever person or church council or other group of people that you trust, do they have the authority to edit or interpret the fourth commandment such that it would be celebrated on the first day of the week?

*******************

Which books do you think the Bereans were using a scripture? Were they using the same thing most Protestants used today as the Old testament? Or were they using the lxx, something similar to what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches use today?

Many people who have never looked at the history of the Canon are surprised at what they find. It's not for the weak in faith, imo.

The subject relates to the thread topic in the sense of how did the SDAs arrive at a Canon such that they could use Sola scriptura? Did they use one based on tradition?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
I don't remember posting that.

But I do agree that no church council (Acts 15, or 1860's or 1960's or 2020's...) can contradict scripture and then claim to be correct in doing so. Which means if you are addressing something I posted you are off on the wrong foot looking for some council that was setup to negate scripture or contradict scripture.

There is no statement by any NT writer saying "we will not know what scripture actually is for another 200 years".

Josephus said the OT was canonized 400 years before Christ and Christ's teaching was said to be from "all of scriptures" in Luke 24. So the NT saints were not in the business of saying "We have no clue what scripture is".

Act 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

Paul and Peter both confirm that their writings - their teaching was already being accepted as scripture.

no waiting.

============

Later church councils do not claim to have "come up with scripture" but rather to affirm what was already accepted as scripture.

I think the issue usually comes up when we talk about how lots of respected theologians say that all 10 of The commandments are for today.

I don't recall that discussion ever melting down to "nobody knew what scripture was in the NT age" or "they thought they would need to wait 300 years to find out what NT scripture was" in those discussions about C.H. Spurgeon and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" or the discussions about "the Westminster Confession of Faith" all affirming that all TEN of the Ten commandment are included in what they all "the moral law of God". In fact that topic was about "the easy part of the discussion" where the Bible details were so glaringly obvious - that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic - admitted to them.

Maybe you are confusing that topic with something else.

 

[BobRyan]

I'll try addressing the same issue with some different questions:

A) Who do you trust to say what is scripture and what is not? For example, is the book of James scripture? At least one early church said no.

There is no indication from the NT text that people were rejecting the leadership of James or were rejecting his letter. In fact there is no dispute at all between any of the Christian denominations about what is in the NT text.

Is the book of Wisdom scripture? Again, at least one early church said yes.

The "book of Wisdom" or the "books of Wisdom"???

As for which New Testament church wrote even one OT scripture - the answer is none. The Jews wrote the Old Testament text and the Jewish Historian - Josephus states in the first century that the OT Canon was formed and unchanged for over 300 years before Christ.

Not sure how this is helping your interest. Were you thinking of a different subject topic??

 

[BobRyan]

The subject relates to the thread topic in the sense of how did the SDAs arrive at a Canon such that they could use Sola scriptura? Did they use one based on tradition?

Sounds like your question is "how is it that all Christian denominations agree on what the NT is - even ones that accept sola-scriptura testing of doctrine"... -- might be its own subject/thread.