Seventh-day Adventist denomination - said to be 5th largest Christian denomination world-wide

[brakelite]

As an additional thought, the incredible growth in Papua New Guinea, 6000 since the end of COVID, (not people, but churches), has brought is own problems, as Pentecost did with the early church. The necessity to quickly teach pastors, elders etc to disciple the new members, and also establish new pastors, elders to nurture the young churches. The Adventist church doesn't have the resources of many of the larger more affluent churches such as Catholicism, and the Pentecostal churches. Teaching and discipling will take a lot of sacrifice from members throughout the SP division, which sacrifice brought Adventism to its current place in the world in the beginning. It is amazing what God has accomplished from a small group of poor teen-agers who were earning at best a dollar a week in the 1840s.

 

[The Liturgist]

As an additional thought, the incredible growth in Papua New Guinea, 6000 since the end of COVID, (not people, but churches), has brought is own problems, as Pentecost did with the early church. The necessity to quickly teach pastors, elders etc to disciple the new members, and also establish new pastors, elders to nurture the young churches. The Adventist church doesn't have the resources of many of the larger more affluent churches such as Catholicism, and the Pentecostal churches. Teaching and discipling will take a lot of sacrifice from members throughout the SP division, which sacrifice brought Adventism to its current place in the world in the beginning. It is amazing what God has accomplished from a small group of poor teen-agers who were earning at best a dollar a week in the 1840s.

And yet for all that effort the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans outnumber Seventh Day Adventists in Papua New Guinea nearly four to one, and other traditional Protestants such as the United Church (resulting from union between the Reformed and Methodist missions) have 10.3%, so even in this one isolated space where the SDA has managed to be the third largest denomination, there are more than two Catholics for every Adventist and nearly five traditional Western Christians, of which nearly four are from the three liturgical branches of Western Christianity (Catholicism, Lutheranism and Anglicanism) and the others from churches which are quite often liturgical (since Methodists were originally liturgical and usually still are, and the Continental Reformed have always been liturgical, and liturgical worship was introduced into the Presbyterian and Congregational churches over the course of the 19th century thanks to Mercersburg Theology, Scoto-Catholicism and a liturgical movement in the UK that produced “A Biblical Liturgy” in the mid 19th century (the Congregationalist minister composed the liturgy entirely from scriptural verses, apparently unaware that with the traditional liturgies of the Eastern Orthodox and Anglicans, for example, over 90% of the liturgy is of scriptural origin), and the much more successful, and much better, Devotional Services for Public Worship by Rev. John Hunter of the King’s Weigh House, which has been hugely influential on Protestant worship ever since, with a beauty to its services exceeding that even of the better editions of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

His successor interestingly tried to set up the King’s Weigh House as a place to facilitate an ecumenical reconciliation between Protestants and Catholics, which would have been superb, but it was ahead of its time, and although he wrote a good liturgical book, Devotional Liturgies, he was ultimately not entirely successful, and wound up converting to Catholicism.

The real tragedy of Papua New Guinea is the lack of Orthodox penetration in that particular mission field, but on the other hand our work in Alaska and in more recent decades, Africa, the Caribbean, East Asia and Latin America, and also in preserving Christianity by repopularizing liturgical worship and preventing a large number of Anglicans disappointed with the dominance of liberal theology in the Lambeth Conferences from becoming unchurch puts paid the notion that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox somehow lost the ability to efficiently conduct successful evangelism.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God’s Church has never been a majority- scriptures tells us that plainly Rev 12:17 but its great to see the gospel go out all across the world- it means our time on this earth is short.

 

[The Liturgist]

God’s Church has never been a majority- scriptures tells us that plainly Rev 12:17 but its great to see the gospel go out all across the world- it means our time on this earth is short.

Indeed, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Roman Catholic and Assyrian churches have never at any time even collectively comprised a majority of the human population, but they have collectively comprised the largest religion (historically, the largest church was the Assyrian Church of the East, which spread from modern day Iraq north through Persia, and then East across the Silk Road to Mongolia, South through China and to Tibet, and also into India, and then south from Iraq to Yemen and the Island of Socotra. Before Tamerlane began systematically exterminating Christians in a genocide continued by his sons, the Assyrian Church was vastly larger than the Roman Catholic Church in geographical area and also likely larger in terms of total membership. Before Islam, its only rivals were the Manichean religion, which was a heretical Gnostic religion designed to appeal to Christians, but also to Buddhists, Zoroastrians, followers of the Mithraic Mysteries, and Hermes-worshippers among the Levantine Pagan religions which later became extinct), and also indigenous heathen religions (which actually copied practices from the Assyrians, for example, the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy and their system of chant appears to be derived from that of the Assyrian Church of the East, and likewise the Taoists in China began copying the layout of Assyrian Christian altars, with two lamps on each end of the altar, in a rectangular shape, often against a wall, and the offering placed in the center (albeit in the case of Taoists, this is an offering to the Immortals, the Jade Emperor and various figures from the pantheon of Traditional Chinese Folk Religion, which Taoist priests tend to administer, and also the canon of Taoist immortals such as Laozhi).

However within Christianity, size, while not everything, is important, since by maximizing the size of those denominations which practice the traditional liturgy, we can maximize adherence to the apostolic faith, and work to abolish innovations introduced by well-intentioned but grossly misguided Restorationists such as George Fox and Ellen White.

Among Restorationist churches, the only one which I think really did manage to restore something which had been lost by most Protestants was the Stone/Campbell movement, which led to a few different denominations such as the Churches of Christ with their lovely A Capella singing and the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. The Stone/Campbell movement, with its emphasis on weekly reception of the Eucharist (which had also been stressed by John Wesley, but unfortunately most Methodist churches stopped celebrating the Eucharist weekly).

Of course, Stone and Campbell also made some mistakes, such as rejecting creeds as divisive, which just invites heterodoxy. The surest way of ensuring doctrinal Orthodoxy is to include the singing of the Nicene Creed and historic confessional canticles. I posted a list of those I recommend, and in fact use as my statement of faith, here: Share YOUR Statement of Faith

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Indeed, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Roman Catholic and Assyrian churches have never at any time even collectively comprised a majority of the human population, but they have collectively comprised the largest religion (historically, the largest church was the Assyrian Church of the East, which spread from modern day Iraq north through Persia, and then East across the Silk Road to Mongolia, South through China and to Tibet, and also into India, and then south from Iraq to Yemen and the Island of Socotra. Before Tamerlane began systematically exterminating Christians in a genocide continued by his sons, the Assyrian Church was vastly larger than the Roman Catholic Church in geographical area and also likely larger in terms of total membership. Before Islam, its only rivals were the Manichean religion, which was a heretical Gnostic religion designed to appeal to Christians, but also to Buddhists, Zoroastrians, followers of the Mithraic Mysteries, and Hermes-worshippers among the Levantine Pagan religions which later became extinct), and also indigenous heathen religions (which actually copied practices from the Assyrians, for example, the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy and their system of chant appears to be derived from that of the Assyrian Church of the East, and likewise the Taoists in China began copying the layout of Assyrian Christian altars, with two lamps on each end of the altar, in a rectangular shape, often against a wall, and the offering placed in the center (albeit in the case of Taoists, this is an offering to the Immortals, the Jade Emperor and various figures from the pantheon of Traditional Chinese Folk Religion, which Taoist priests tend to administer, and also the canon of Taoist immortals such as Laozhi).

However within Christianity, size, while not everything, is important, since by maximizing the size of those denominations which practice the traditional liturgy, we can maximize adherence to the apostolic faith, and work to abolish innovations introduced by well-intentioned but grossly misguided Restorationists such as George Fox and Ellen White.

Among Restorationist churches, the only one which I think really did manage to restore something which had been lost by most Protestants was the Stone/Campbell movement, which led to a few different denominations such as the Churches of Christ with their lovely A Capella singing and the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. The Stone/Campbell movement, with its emphasis on weekly reception of the Eucharist (which had also been stressed by John Wesley, but unfortunately most Methodist churches stopped celebrating the Eucharist weekly).

Of course, Stone and Campbell also made some mistakes, such as rejecting creeds as divisive, which just invites heterodoxy. The surest way of ensuring doctrinal Orthodoxy is to include the singing of the Nicene Creed and historic confessional canticles. I posted a list of those I recommend, and in fact use as my statement of faith, here: Share YOUR Statement of Faith

It’s not just about that according to Rev 12:17 there’s more than one factor of the remnant church there are several identifying factors according to God’s Word. One main one is they keep God’s commandments just the way God wrote and God spoke as no one had the authority to change God’s law because no one is above God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Roman Catholic and Assyrian churches have never at any time even collectively comprised a majority of the human population, but they have collectively comprised the largest religion (historically, the largest church was the Assyrian Church of the East, which spread from modern day Iraq north through Persia, and then East across the Silk Road to Mongolia, South through China and to Tibet, and also into India, and then south from Iraq to Yemen and the Island of Socotra. Before Tamerlane began systematically exterminating Christians in a genocide continued by his sons, the Assyrian Church was vastly larger than the Roman Catholic Church in geographical area and also likely larger in terms of total membership. Before Islam, its only rivals were the Manichean religion, which was a heretical Gnostic religion designed to appeal to Christians, but also to Buddhists, Zoroastrians, followers of the Mithraic Mysteries, and Hermes-worshippers among the Levantine Pagan religions which later became extinct), and also indigenous heathen religions (which actually copied practices from the Assyrians, for example, the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy and their system of chant appears to be derived from that of the Assyrian Church of the East, and likewise the Taoists in China began copying the layout of Assyrian Christian altars, with two lamps on each end of the altar, in a rectangular shape, often against a wall, and the offering placed in the center (albeit in the case of Taoists, this is an offering to the Immortals, the Jade Emperor and various figures from the pantheon of Traditional Chinese Folk Religion, which Taoist priests tend to administer, and also the canon of Taoist immortals such as Laozhi).

However within Christianity, size, while not everything, is important, since by maximizing the size of those denominations which practice the traditional liturgy, we can maximize adherence to the apostolic faith, and work to abolish innovations introduced by well-intentioned but grossly misguided Restorationists such as George Fox and Ellen White.

Among Restorationist churches, the only one which I think really did manage to restore something which had been lost by most Protestants was the Stone/Campbell movement, which led to a few different denominations such as the Churches of Christ with their lovely A Capella singing and the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. The Stone/Campbell movement, with its emphasis on weekly reception of the Eucharist (which had also been stressed by John Wesley, but unfortunately most Methodist churches stopped celebrating the Eucharist weekly).

Of course, Stone and Campbell also made some mistakes, such as rejecting creeds as divisive, which just invites heterodoxy. The surest way of ensuring doctrinal Orthodoxy is to include the singing of the Nicene Creed and historic confessional canticles. I posted a list of those I recommend, and in fact use as my statement of faith, here: Share YOUR Statement of Faith

I have found some curious corollaries between the American Restorationist movement of the early nineteenth century and the Plymouth Brethren in Great Britain. At the time there was intense interest in determining the essential characteristics of the first-century (aka primitive) church. It affected a variety of denominations, hence we see such off-shoots as the Primitive Methodist Church and the Primitive Baptist Church. There was also a rapidly developing sense of eschatology which had lain dormant for centuries. Toss in charismatic charlatans such as Mr. Smith who "restored" the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and you have a century of truly astounding developments.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have found some curious corollaries between the American Restorationist movement of the early nineteenth century and the Plymouth Brethren in Great Britain. At the time there was intense interest in determining the essential characteristics of the first-century (aka primitive) church. It affected a variety of denominations, hence we see such off-shoots as the Primitive Methodist Church and the Primitive Baptist Church. There was also a rapidly developing sense of eschatology which had lain dormant for centuries. Toss in charismatic charlatans such as Mr. Smith who "restored" the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and you have a century of truly astounding developments.

I regard the Plymouth Brethren, and also the Quakers, as Restorationist denominations, since in both cases they were predicated upon the idea that one man, or a small group of men, had managed to rediscover the original lost teachings of the Early Church which had been suppressed by Roman Catholicism et cetera.

And of course Mormonism, the New Church of Emanuel Swedenborg, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are also Restorationist.*

The only positive aspect of Restorationism is that occasionally it did restore something which had fallen into abeyance, the main example being that of weekly reception of the Eucharist in the Stone/Campbell movement. And I think perhaps that success is enough to compensate for the failures.

*On the other hand, I think Christian Science is an offshoot of the New Thought movement, and while it has much in common with Restorationism, I think the New Thought movement ought to be treated as something else, as an esoteric neo-Gnostic movement which is entirely heretical, unlike Restorationism which occasionally got something right, for example, in the Stone/Campbell movement.

 

[The Liturgist]

One main one is they keep God’s commandments just the way God wrote and God spoke as no one had the authority to change God’s law because no one is above God.

One of those commandments is “Thou shalt do no murder.” I am opposed to any church, including the SDA church, which does not adopt a pro-life position with regards to abortion, so because of this, I oppose the SDA for the same reasons I oppose The Episcopal Church USA, the Presbyterian Church USA, the United Church of Christ, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and certain other mainline churches (one of the worst offenders in this regard being the United Church of Canada).

Christ our True God made it clear that the Sabbath commandment was being over-emphasized by the Jews, which is why St. Paul taught us to let no one judge us over the keeping of sabbaths, among other things, and also made it clear we were not subject to the Torah and for this reason should not be circumcised. On the other hand, it is also made clear by Christ our Lord, God and Savior, who is the Word of God (John 1:1-17), that other commandments, for example, those against adultery, were being underenforced, which is why he expressed such strong opposition to divorce and remarriage (it is for this reason that the Orthodox permit it only to prevent greater sin via illicit relationships, via pastoral oikonomia, as that had tended to happen in Catholic countries where divorce was not legal, for example, in Chile, and we also saw an extreme example of this in the case of King Henry VIII).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

One of those commandments is “Thou shalt do no murder.” I am opposed to any church, including the SDA church, which does not adopt a pro-life position with regards to abortion, so because of this, I oppose the SDA for the same reasons I oppose The Episcopal Church USA, the Presbyterian Church USA, the United Church of Christ, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and certain other mainline churches (one of the worst offenders in this regard being the United Church of Canada).

Christ our True God made it clear that the Sabbath commandment was being over-emphasized by the Jews, which is why St. Paul taught us to let no one judge us over the keeping of sabbaths, among other things, and also made it clear we were not subject to the Torah and for this reason should not be circumcised. On the other hand, it is also made clear by Christ our Lord, God and Savior, who is the Word of God (John 1:1-17), that other commandments, for example, those against adultery, were being underenforced, which is why he expressed such strong opposition to divorce and remarriage (it is for this reason that the Orthodox permit it only to prevent greater sin via illicit relationships, via pastoral oikonomia, as that had tended to happen in Catholic countries where divorce was not legal, for example, in Chile, and we also saw an extreme example of this in the case of King Henry VIII).

Absolutely, abortion is a sin and the SDA church does take a pro-life stance https://family.adventist.org/guidelines-on-abortion/

Regardless what the Jews did or did not do it is one of God's Ten Commandments as we will not be judged based on what others do or do not do, we all have a moral obligation to obey God- the Sabbath God placed just as important as thou shalt not murder or thou shalt not worship other gods, breaking one you break them all. James 2:10-12

 

[The Liturgist]

Absolutely, abortion is a sin and the SDA church does take a pro-life stance https://family.adventist.org/guidelines-on-abortion/

Regardless what the Jews did or did not do it is one of God's Ten Commandments as we will not be judged based on what others do or do not do, we all have a moral obligation to obey God- the Sabbath God placed just as important as thou shalt not murder or thou shalt not worship other gods, breaking one you break them all. James 2:10-12

Paragraph six of that very document allows abortions in cases where the infant might not survive, which is a pro-choice position, and is thus completely unacceptable! Indeed you literally linked me to the document on which I base my opposition to the SDA as a pro-choice denomination.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paragraph six of that very document allows abortions in cases where the infant might not survive, which is a pro-choice position, and is thus completely unacceptable! Indeed you literally linked me to the document on which I base my opposition to the SDA as a pro-choice denomination.

It states it does not condone abortion. Clearly.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church considers abortion out of harmony with God’s plan for human life.
While not condoning abortion

While not condoning, it does not force people not to have abortions. That would be dictatorship

Consequently, in rare and extreme cases, human conception may produce pregnancies with fatal prospects and/or acute, life-threatening birth anomalies that present individuals and couples with exceptional dilemmas. Decisions in such cases may be left to the conscience of the individuals involved and their families. These decisions should be well-informed and guided by the Holy Spirit and the biblical view of life outlined above. God’s grace promotes and protects life. Individuals in these challenging situations may come to Him in sincerity and find direction, comfort, and peace in the Lord.

 

[The Liturgist]

It states it does not condone abortion. Clearly.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church considers abortion out of harmony with God’s plan for human life.
While not condoning abortion

While not condoning, it does not force people not to have abortions. That would be dictatorship

No it wouldn’t. Members of a Christian church who have an abortion must be held to account, and subject to a canonical penance, including exclusion from the sacrament of the Eucharist for a certain amount of time, so that they may realize the terrible sin they have committed and repent from it. Allowing people to have abortions and to partake of the Eucharist with no contrition, no compunction, no remorse, and no effort at metanoia (repentance) is in my view unconscionable.

Also I find it ironic for a church that teaches its members to not engage in various activities on the Sabbath, such as shopping for food, despite our Lord having condoned acquiring food on the Sabbath and despite St. Paul saying that we are not to allow others to judge us on our observance of sabbaths, to object to taking a pro-life stance on the grounds that doing so would be “dictatorship.”

Whatever the SDA would do to a member who insisted Ellen G White was wrong, not an inspired prophet, and that primary worship should be on Sunday, they should do that, and ten times more than that, to a member who has an abortion, performs an abortion or advocates for abortion, and likewise with regards to adultery, since scripture makes it clear that these issues are much more important than how one observes the Sabbath and also the issue of the charism of prophecy and other charisms.

Consequently, in rare and extreme cases, human conception may produce pregnancies with fatal prospects and/or acute, life-threatening birth anomalies that present individuals and couples with exceptional dilemmas. Decisions in such cases may be left to the conscience of the individuals involved and their families. These decisions should be well-informed and guided by the Holy Spirit and the biblical view of life outlined above. God’s grace promotes and protects life. Individuals in these challenging situations may come to Him in sincerity and find direction, comfort, and peace in the Lord.

That constitutes condoning abortion in those cases, obviously, and that is unacceptable.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No it wouldn’t. Members of a Christian church who have an abortion must be held to account, and subject to a canonical penance, including exclusion from the sacrament of the Eucharist for a certain amount of time, so that they may realize the terrible sin they have committed and repent from it. Allowing people to have abortions and to partake of the Eucharist with no contrition, no compunction, no remorse, and no effort at metanoia (repentance) is in my view unconscionable.

Also I find it ironic for a church that teaches its members to not engage in various activities on the Sabbath, such as shopping for food, despite our Lord having condoned acquiring food on the Sabbath and despite St. Paul saying that we are not to allow others to judge us on our observance of sabbaths, to object to taking a pro-life stance on the grounds that doing so would be “dictatorship.”

Whatever the SDA would do to a member who insisted Ellen G White was wrong, not an inspired prophet, and that primary worship should be on Sunday, they should do that, and ten times more than that, to a member who has an abortion, performs an abortion or advocates for abortion, and likewise with regards to adultery, since scripture makes it clear that these issues are much more important than how one observes the Sabbath and also the issue of the charism of prophecy and other charisms.



That constitutes condoning abortion in those cases, obviously, and that is unacceptable.

These same principles will be applied to the Sunday law. Churches are not meant to be a dictatorship- they are meant to guide through God's Word which is what the SDA church does with abortion. We do not agree with it nor condone it, but will not cut people off when sinning. Can you imagine if Jesus cut everyone off who sinned.

Also, you are confusing the annual sabbath(s) with the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments Paul never taught a different gospel than Jesus nor did he have the authority to countermand God, nor would he. Paul was a servant of Christ and kept faithfully the Sabbath decades after the Cross just like the other apostles Acts 14:42-44 Acts 18:4 as they were commissioned by Jesus to observe everything He commanded Mat 28:18-20

 

[The Liturgist]

These same principles will be applied to the Sunday law. Churches are not meant to be a dictatorship- they are meant to guide through God's Word which is what the SDA church does with abortion. We do not agree with it nor condone it, but will not cut people off when sinning. Can you imagine if Jesus cut everyone off who sinned.

We don’t cut off everyone who sins, but we do cut off everyone who sins and is unremorseful about it and does not seek to repent. The key element is compunction - contrition, a recognition of our sinful state and a desire to confess, which is why in Anglican and Lutheran and Orthodox liturgies there will be a public confession, and also available to the people is a private confession if they feel they need it.

Also, you are confusing the annual sabbath(s) with the Sabbath of the 4th commandment.

No I am not. St. Paul did not draw a distinction in his statement, and so essentially you are putting words in his mouth.

Paul never taught a different gospel than Jesus nor did he have the authority to countermand God, nor would he. Paul was a servant of Christ and kept faithfully the Sabbath decades after the Cross just like the other apostles Acts 14:42-44 Acts 18:4

Firstly, Jesus is God. Why are you talking about Jesus Christ as though He and God are two separate persons?

Secondly, Jesus Christ made it clear that the Sabbath was being interpreted too literally, for example, when he was criticized for gathering wheat with his disciples on the Sabbath. Thus, in no respect did St. Paul contradict our Lord; rather, SDA hermeneutics, or to be more precise, the hermeneutics of Ellen G. White, are simply inconsistent on this issue.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No I am not. St. Paul did not draw a distinction in his statement, and so essentially you are putting words in his mouth.

Please quote the scripture so we can examine. If you are referring to Col 2:16 the context starts in Col 2:14 and ends in Col 2:17 which points to Heb 10:1-12 and its obviously not referring to one of the Ten Commandments especially the weekly Sabbath that is holy and blessed by God and written by the Authority of God, not man and Paul does not contradict Jesus or His teachings such as Mat 5:18-30 which not one jot or letter can be changed from God's law because no one is above the Authority of God.

Firstly, Jesus is God. Why are you talking about Jesus Christ as though He and God are two separate persons?

These are your words not mine. Of course Jesus is God.

Secondly, Jesus Christ made it clear that the Sabbath was being interpreted too literally, for example, when he was criticized for gathering wheat with his disciples on the Sabbath. Thus, in no respect did St. Paul contradict our Lord; rather, SDA hermeneutics, or to be more precise, the hermeneutics of Ellen G. White, are simply inconsistent on this issue.

This is one of many misunderstood scriptures that people use against God's commandments and miss the very teaching Jesus was trying to make. They were not gathering wheat they were plucking the heads of grain and eating because they were hungry Mat 12:1, It was not a sin to eat on the Sabbath, Jesus made that abundantly clear Mat 12:7- He wasn't lowering the standard for His disciples while condemning the Pharisees for not keeping one of the Ten Commandments Mat 15:1-14, that makes Jesus a hypocrite, which He's not. The same Pharisees that accused the disciples of sinning, also accused Jesus of sinning and not being God, not a camp I would want to side with.

 

[FireDragon76]

18 million is alot for a denomination that started relatively recently, but it's still relatively small by global standards.

The World Communion of Reformed Churches represents over 80 million Christians (including the United Church of Christ, it's still broadly Reformed). The Lutheran World Federation is even larger, representing 149 million Christians.