Seventh-day Adventist Church is sola-scriptura testing - but not sola-tradition testing

BobRyan

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I see what you are saying, but my meaning is better summed up in Acts 8

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,

and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,

so he opened not his mouth.

33In (his) humiliation justice was denied him.
Who will tell of his posterity?
For his life is taken from the earth.”
34Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?”
35Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.

Scripture alone is insufficient...

The "sola scriptura" model of scripture that we see in Acts 17:11 does not say "do not explain scripture to anyone" rather it says that if someone tells you that Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah but rather it is about Israel suffering persecution from gentiles (Which some people do teach) you need to look at the scripture details closely "and SEE IF - those things are so" Acts 17:11.

And so in the example above - Philip explains the scripture - but does not say "obviously I am a total stranger to you -- just believe whatever I tell you about this chapter". He also does not say "within my own group I am considered a disciple so you should believe whatever I tell you to believe even though I am nobody at all to you... that's how we do it".

In fact that actual magisterium of the religion that the Ethiopian eunuch (an apparent proselyte of the Jews) was part of... His own magisterium would have told him to reject Philip's teaching and all his claims to know what Isaiah 53 really meant.
 
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The Liturgist

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That's not "Adventist" it is Bible scholars in almost all denominations on planet Earth not just the ones on "one side" of the Sabbath topic. So then when it comes to THE TEN - as they existed before the cross, (as recorded in the actual Bible) - we have...
D.L. Moody
The Baptist Confession of Faith
The Westminster Confession of Faith
Matthew Henry
C.H. Spurgeon
R.C. Sproul
...



That's fine... but you also can't ignore the fact that they are not all SDA so this is not "the Adventist interpretation" --

John Wesley


John Wesley

Exodus 20 Commentary - Wesley's Explanatory Notes


Comment on Exodus 20
20:8The fourth commandment concerns the time of worship; God is to be served and honoured daily; but one day in seven is to be particularly dedicated to his honour, and spent in his service. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy; in it thou shalt do no manner of work - It is taken for granted that the Sabbath was instituted before. We read of God's blessing and sanctifying a seventh day from the beginning, Genesis 2:3 , so that this was not the enacting of a new law, but the reviving of an old law. 1st. They are told what is the day, they must observe, a seventh after six days labour, whether this was the seventh by computation from the first seventh, or from the day of their coming out of Egypt, or both, is not certain. A late pious Writer seems to prove, That the sabbath was changed, when Israel came out of Egypt; which change continued till our Lord rose again: But that then the Original Sabbath was restored. And he makes it highly probable, at least, That the sabbath we observe, is the seventh day from the creation.


In Genesis the 7th day is not the 7th day of Adam's life - Adam had only be alive for one day. In Genesis 2:1-3 it is the 7th day of Creation week itself "The 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10. It was God's 7th day of creation week and man's first full day of life after being created on day 6.

The problem with your argument is that, owing to a lack of understanding of Anglicanism and Methodism (John Wesley was a Priest in the Church of England for his entire life), fails to comprehend and thus distorts the meaning of what John Wesley wrote. Wesley believed, as is de rigeur in Anglicanism, that we are obliged to follow the ten commandments. But he also interpreted the Fourth Commandment as referring to Sunday, according to Anglicanism, for he was an Anglican priest.

And his commentary explains why - because Sunday, he felt, was originally the seventh day, and what we now reckon as the seventh day was originally the sixth, but our Lord was resurrected on what had been the Sabbath, but was since regarded as the First Day, and thus, through the Resurrection, the original faith was restored.

Aside from that, any argument citing Wesley as a Sabbatarian or supporter of the SDA interpretation of the fourth commandment, is misleading, and ignores the fact that Wesley expressed a belief that the correct observance of the Sabbath was on Sunday, that his edited version of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer he created for the Methodist Episcopal Church in the US when they were forced to become a separate denomination from the Church of England after the Peace of Paris, was entitled The Sunday Service Book for The Methodists In North America, and that the minimum worship services he desired Methodists to attend were Holy Communion on Sunday, and the Great Litany on Wednesday and Friday, which were also to be fasting days after the tradition of the Early Church, and also services on Christmas Day and Ascension Thursday.
 
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From the Bible we can see three possible states for "tradition"
1. It is in harmony with the Bible and conveys useful rules/doctrine valuable in our battle against sin.
2. It is useless and contains no practical value when it makes stuff up as if God endorsed it.
3. It teaches outright error and contradicts scripture.

for case #1 we have this
2 Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

paradosis (traditions)


for case #2 useless and contains no practical value when it makes stuff up as if God endorsed it.

we have this
Mark 7:8 Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
Col 2:
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.​


For case #3 "teaches outright error and contradicts scripture.
have Mark 7
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.
13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down;​


Mark 7:6-13
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

Jesus' argument is "sola scriptura" and his target is the established tradition of the magesterium of the one-true nation church started by God at Sinai.

==================

Which makes the opposite point from " Scripture alone is hard to see, and we need tradition to keep us from having to reinvent the wheel".

The same is true in Acts 17:11 - there the magisterium and its traditions proclaimed that Paul's teaching was error. Tradition needed to be ignored to objectively and accurately compare Paul's teaching to scripture.

Not only was this "possible" but even non-Christians in Acts 17:11 were able to test Paul "sola scriptura" and decide against the teaching and traditions of their own magesterium in favor of Paul's teaching.

==========================

In real history there could never have been Catholic reformers contrasting scripture with tradition to find more of the "many such things as that" that Christ mentions in Mark 7 .. if their only option was "when you think tradition is in error just assume you don't know enough about the Bible or tradition to figure it out right, continue to believe whatever you were told".

Mark 7 refers to Pharisaical Judaism, which after the destruction of the Temple, was written down in the Mishnah and collected in the Talmud. Worshipping on Sunday is part of the Apostolic paradosis referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:15-17
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Mark 7 refers to Pharisaical Judaism, which after the destruction of the Temple, was written down in the Mishnah and collected in the Talmud. Worshipping on Sunday is part of the Apostolic paradosis referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:15-17
I don’t see Sunday worship in this scripture or anywhere in the Bible.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The problem with your argument is that, owing to a lack of understanding of Anglicanism and Methodism (John Wesley was a Priest in the Church of England for his entire life), fails to comprehend and thus distorts the meaning of what John Wesley wrote. Wesley believed, as is de rigeur in Anglicanism, that we are obliged to follow the ten commandments. But he also interpreted the Fourth Commandment as referring to Sunday, according to Anglicanism, for he was an Anglican priest.

And his commentary explains why - because Sunday, he felt, was originally the seventh day, and what we now reckon as the seventh day was originally the sixth, but our Lord was resurrected on what had been the Sabbath, but was since regarded as the First Day, and thus, through the Resurrection, the original faith was restored.

Aside from that, any argument citing Wesley as a Sabbatarian or supporter of the SDA interpretation of the fourth commandment, is misleading, and ignores the fact that Wesley expressed a belief that the correct observance of the Sabbath was on Sunday, that his edited version of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer he created for the Methodist Episcopal Church in the US when they were forced to become a separate denomination from the Church of England after the Peace of Paris, was entitled The Sunday Service Book for The Methodists In North America, and that the minimum worship services he desired Methodists to attend were Holy Communion on Sunday, and the Great Litany on Wednesday and Friday, which were also to be fasting days after the tradition of the Early Church, and also services on Christmas Day and Ascension Thursday.

I’m pretty sure Wesley knew which day was the seventh day. All the Jews in the world didn’t suddenly disappear.

You can’t have it both ways, you can’t having Jesus rising on the first day and the Sabbath being on the first day. God’s 4th commandment is very clear, the seventh day is the holy day of the Lord thy God Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13.

Many of the reformers were coming around to scripture and the true meanings and going against what the Roman Catholic Church was teaching them. Wesley said every part of the Ten Commandments must be enforced and we know which day is God’s Sabbath day. From Creation it has been a work week of six and the seventh day God rested as it is His holy day and He also commanded us to keep His Sabbath holy. The week has never changed.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

John Wesley:
This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.
 
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Freth

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Mark 7 refers to Pharisaical Judaism, which after the destruction of the Temple, was written down in the Mishnah and collected in the Talmud. Worshipping on Sunday is part of the Apostolic paradosis referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:15-17

Context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is clear if you read the preceding verses.
  • 1-12: The man of sin. Lawlessness. Unrighteousness.
  • 13-14: Salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: which He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The man of sin is, one and the same, the son of perdition, who would think to change times and laws of God (Daniel 7:23-25).

Paul even mentioned sanctification previously in his letter in direct relation to obedience. "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication [lawlessness]." (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

We can be assured, then, that 2 Thessalonians 2 is pointing to commandment-keeping and the testimony of Jesus Christ as the oral and written traditions spoken of in verse 15 and taught in his day.

The very man of sin, of lawlessness, that son of perdition, is the same spirit of rebellion that would think to change the times and laws of God; of which is the very Sunday sacredness that cannot be found a refuge nor defense in 2 Thessalonians 2, nor any other scripture.
 
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I don’t see Sunday worship in this scripture or anywhere in the Bible.


Did the Resurrection occur on the first day of the week? The Bible said it did in Matthew 28

1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. 5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you." 8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

The Bible clearly says that Jesus was worshiped on Sunday
 
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The "sola scriptura" model of scripture that we see in Acts 17:11 does not say "do not explain scripture to anyone" rather it says that if someone tells you that Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah but rather it is about Israel suffering persecution from gentiles (Which some people do teach) you need to look at the scripture details closely "and SEE IF - those things are so" Acts 17:11.

And so in the example above - Philip explains the scripture - but does not say "obviously I am a total stranger to you -- just believe whatever I tell you about this chapter". He also does not say "within my own group I am considered a disciple so you should believe whatever I tell you to believe even though I am nobody at all to you... that's how we do it".

In fact that actual magisterium of the religion that the Ethiopian eunuch (an apparent proselyte of the Jews) was part of... His own magisterium would have told him to reject Philip's teaching and all his claims to know what Isaiah 53 really meant.

That is over generalization. Just because the Jews were in error does not mean that all magisterium are also wrong
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Did the Resurrection occur on the first day of the week? The Bible said it did in Matthew 28

1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. 5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you." 8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

The Bible clearly says that Jesus was worshiped on Sunday
I never said the resurrection was not on the first day. Jesus rested in His tomb on the seventh day and kept the Sabbath even in death and rose the first day.

Yes, they worshipped Jesus, no where in scripture does we are to worship Jesus on the first day as a weekly worship or that the first day is God’s holy day. Mary kept the Sabbath commandment after Jesus died Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

We are told the holy day of the Lord thy God is on the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13. There is no scripture in the entire bible that tells us that the 4th commandment and God's holy day has been changed to the first day. This is a tradition of man and Jesus warned not to worship in vain by obeying traditions over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9. Which is why the Sabbath will continue as promised Exodus 31:16 and will be the day of worship for eternity Isaiah 66:23 Hope this helps
 
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BobRyan

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I see what you are saying, but my meaning is better summed up in Acts 8

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
...
Scripture alone is insufficient...


The "sola scriptura" model of scripture that we see in Acts 17:11 does not say "do not explain scripture to anyone" rather it says that if someone tells you to test all teaching/interpretation/tradition by the Bible. So then it says if you are told that Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah but rather it is about Israel suffering persecution from gentiles (Which some people do teach) you need to look at the scripture details closely "and SEE IF - those things are so" Acts 17:11.

And so in the example above - Philip explains the scripture - but does not say "obviously I am a total stranger to you -- just believe whatever I tell you about this chapter". Rather the eunuch must look at the text and decide for himself if Philip is right or his magisterium is right.

Philip does not say "within my own group I am considered a disciple so you should believe whatever I tell you to believe even though I am nobody at all to you... that's how we do it".

In fact that actual magisterium of the religion that the Ethiopian eunuch (an apparent proselyte of the Jews) was part of... His own magisterium would have told him to reject Philip's teaching and all his claims to know what Isaiah 53 really meant.

That is over generalization. Just because the Jews were in error does not mean that all magisterium are also wrong

I never say "all magisterium are wrong".

Rather I took the specific example you reference in Acts 8 - and I show how it is a perfect example of someone going fully against their own magisterium and its traditions/maxim to listen to a complete stranger give an explanation of a Bible passage where the reader (such as the Ethiopian in your example) can see clearly that the complete stranger (Philip in this case) is correct and the magisterium's interpretation is wrong. This is the example you selected - and my response was not "all magisterium are wrong". (After all I would argue that the magisterium in the denomination I belong to has correct teaching on doctrine).
 
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BobRyan

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Did the Resurrection occur on the first day of the week?

agreed.

The Bible said it did in Matthew 28


The Bible clearly says that Jesus was worshiped on Sunday

Hopefully you will agree that God is worshiped every day - yet even the Catholic church says that missing the worship service of mass - on Sunday - is a mortal sin and claiming "I had worship on Tuesday" does not fix that problem in the eyes of the Catholic church - how much more an issue in the case of God Himself calling not merely for "worship of God every day of the week" -- but specifically "an entire day of rest and worship - a solemn assembly" (on "the seventh day) during the week where the entire day is set aside for that. Sanctified for that use.
 
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BobRyan

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Mark 7 refers to Pharisaical Judaism, which after the destruction of the Temple,

No doubt they had some errors - but they did not see it that way and neither did the church members they were in charge of -- which included the disciples as even Jesus said they "sat in the seat of Moses". Yet that magisterium was in error and sola scriptura testing proved it for all.
 
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BobRyan

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With all due respect, I don’t think the Adventist interpretation of the Decalogue is correct,

That's not "Adventist" it is Bible scholars in almost all denominations on planet Earth not just the ones on "one side" of the Sabbath topic. So then when it comes to THE TEN - as they existed before the cross, (as recorded in the actual Bible) - we have...
D.L. Moody
The Baptist Confession of Faith
The Westminster Confession of Faith
Matthew Henry
C.H. Spurgeon
R.C. Sproul
...

I reject both of those confessions of faith as I am not a Baptist nor a Calvinist, and I reject Sproul, Spurgeon and Henry as irrelevant theologians

That's fine... but you also can't ignore the fact that they are not all SDA so this is not "the Adventist interpretation" --

John Wesley
I. The moral law of the Ten Commandments can never be broken while we are conscious of good and evil.
II. The law and the gospel agree perfectly well together.
III. God demands an entire obedience; there is no such thing as a little sin.
IV. Righteous Christians fulfill the spirit as well as the letter of the law.

http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/25/

John Wesley

Exodus 20 Commentary - Wesley's Explanatory Notes


Comment on Exodus 20
20:8The fourth commandment concerns the time of worship; God is to be served and honoured daily; but one day in seven is to be particularly dedicated to his honour, and spent in his service. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy; in it thou shalt do no manner of work - It is taken for granted that the Sabbath was instituted before. We read of God's blessing and sanctifying a seventh day from the beginning, Genesis 2:3 , so that this was not the enacting of a new law, but the reviving of an old law. 1st. They are told what is the day, they must observe, a seventh after six days labour, whether this was the seventh by computation from the first seventh, or from the day of their coming out of Egypt, or both, is not certain. A late pious Writer seems to prove, That the sabbath was changed, when Israel came out of Egypt; which change continued till our Lord rose again: But that then the Original Sabbath was restored. And he makes it highly probable, at least, That the sabbath we observe, is the seventh day from the creation.


In Genesis the 7th day is not the 7th day of Adam's life - Adam had only be alive for one day. In Genesis 2:1-3 it is the 7th day of Creation week itself "The 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10. It was God's 7th day of creation week and man's first full day of life after being created on day 6.



Wesley believed, as is de rigeur in Anglicanism, that we are obliged to follow the ten commandments.

True.

"The moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, Vol. I, Sermon XXV.

But he also interpreted the Fourth Commandment as referring to Sunday

It is not at all reasonable to suppose that Methodists and or Anglicans were not aware that Jesus was raised on the first day of the week according to the Gospels and that the 4th commandment by contrast says "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10

So then we all know he (Wesley) affirmed all TEN of the TEN Commandments as included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and that they are still binding to this very day.

Yet we also know as you point out the Wesley adopted the idea that the 4th commandment must have been "edited" at some point

And his commentary explains why - because Sunday, he felt, was originally the seventh day, and what we now reckon as the seventh day was originally the sixth, but our Lord was resurrected on what had been the Sabbath, but was since regarded as the First Day, and thus, through the Resurrection, the original faith was restored.

We see in almost every case in the New Testament the point raised that when the NT writers use the term Sabbath - the Jews are in the Synagogue worshiping on the Sabbath and many times so also are the Christians and others listening to Gospel preaching.

If the argument is that Sabbath "used to be on Sunday (in our Calendar)" as God gave it to the Jews - such that every reference in the Bible to the 7th day Sabbath is in fact Sunday - so then the Jews switched from that Sunday observance over to Saturday after the cross ?? seriously Wesley??


- then when the bible says Jesus was raised on the FIRST day of the week - that would be our Monday!! Since it is irrefutable that EVERY reference to the Jews in worship in the synagogues beyond the Gospel accounts - is a reference to the 7th day Sabbath Saturday being observed - even when NT writers use that term.

Aside from that, any argument citing Wesley as a Sabbatarian

References to Luther and all other Sunday keeping groups as in my post above - are in regard to their affirming two key points.

1. The TEN Commandments - ALL TEN are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:-31-34
2. The Sabbath commandment is not deleted for Christians.

And now even you admit that Wesley would have affirmed both of those points.

the point remains.

The only "debate" left then is in our contention that God's Law was not "edited".
 
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agreed.

The Bible said it did in Matthew 28




Hopefully you will agree that God is worshiped every day - yet even the Catholic church says that missing the worship service of mass - on Sunday - is a mortal sin and claiming "I had worship on Tuesday" does not fix that problem in the eyes of the Catholic church - how much more an issue in the case of God Himself calling not merely for "worship of God every day of the week" -- but specifically "an entire day of rest and worship - a solemn assembly" (on "the seventh day) during the week where the entire day is set aside for that. Sanctified for that use.

yes you make a valid point. We are not free to come to our own conclusions regarding what the Bible says, but must bow to the authority instituted by God.
The problem with the SDA is that it rejects the authority given to the Church by God. Whatever you declare loosed on Earth will be loosed in Heaven and whatever you declare bound one Earth will be bound in heaven. That was the authority given to Peter and the Apostles, and it was used to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
The Sabbath was not eliminated as Jesus did not come reject the law and the prophets but to fulfill. The Catholic Church teaches rest and worship one day in seven just as God commands. We rest one day in seven to commemorate the Resurrection and Pentecost both of which took place on the first day of the week as documented in the Bible
The book From Sabbath to Sunday correctly states that the directive to worship on Sunday came from the Church in Rome, but it disparages the authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul in Rome by saying that they wanted to be more like the pagans and follow a planetary week. That is a bit of a stretch. Christians were being slaughtered by lions in the second and third centuries when the change was made. They refused to offer a pinch of incense to Caesar and paid with their lives. Do you really think that they changed their worship to appease the pagans and blend in?
It was not until the fourth century that Constantine was converted and Christianity became the state religion. Granted the political authorities in Rome wanted control of the Church and tried to exert political control and make changes.
The state backed Arius, who proposed the Jesus Christ was a created being and not God Himself. It took the council of Nicea to ascertain that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. It took St Athanasius to stand up to the Arians and say God Himself came to Earth to redeem us, He did not just send some messenger or Angel. This is clearly in the Bible in Isaiah, but it took the council to proclaim it and oppose Arius, who also used Scripture to make his arguments. The argument got so heated that St Nicholas, aka Santa Clause, actually punched Arius for daring to propose that God did not really redeem us, and say that Jesus was just an Angel sent by God.
The Sabbath law was not abrogated by the Church but moved to Sunday to celebrate the New covenant to commemorate the Resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. This separated the new church from the Jews and the old law and proclaimed that salvation has come the the whole world
When we use sola scriptura we reject all of the authority of the Christian fathers that came before us. We set ourselves up as arbiters of truth and reject authority. The Church has a 2000 year history, and it is good to study it as well as scripture.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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yes you make a valid point. We are not free to come to our own conclusions regarding what the Bible says, but must bow to the authority instituted by God.
The problem with the SDA is that it rejects the authority given to the Church by God. Whatever you declare loosed on Earth will be loosed in Heaven and whatever you declare bound one Earth will be bound in heaven. That was the authority given to Peter and the Apostles, and it was used to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
The Sabbath was not eliminated as Jesus did not come reject the law and the prophets but to fulfill. The Catholic Church teaches rest and worship one day in seven just as God commands. We rest one day in seven to commemorate the Resurrection and Pentecost both of which took place on the first day of the week as documented in the Bible
The book From Sabbath to Sunday correctly states that the directive to worship on Sunday came from the Church in Rome, but it disparages the authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul in Rome by saying that they wanted to be more like the pagans and follow a planetary week. That is a bit of a stretch. Christians were being slaughtered by lions in the second and third centuries when the change was made. They refused to offer a pinch of incense to Caesar and paid with their lives. Do you really think that they changed their worship to appease the pagans and blend in?
It was not until the fourth century that Constantine was converted and Christianity became the state religion. Granted the political authorities in Rome wanted control of the Church and tried to exert political control and make changes.
The state backed Arius, who proposed the Jesus Christ was a created being and not God Himself. It took the council of Nicea to ascertain that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. It took St Athanasius to stand up to the Arians and say God Himself came to Earth to redeem us, He did not just send some messenger or Angel. This is clearly in the Bible in Isaiah, but it took the council to proclaim it and oppose Arius, who also used Scripture to make his arguments. The argument got so heated that St Nicholas, aka Santa Clause, actually punched Arius for daring to propose that God did not really redeem us, and say that Jesus was just an Angel sent by God.
The Sabbath law was not abrogated by the Church but moved to Sunday to celebrate the New covenant to commemorate the Resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. This separated the new church from the Jews and the old law and proclaimed that salvation has come the the whole world
When we use sola scriptura we reject all of the authority of the Christian fathers that came before us. We set ourselves up as arbiters of truth and reject authority. The Church has a 2000 year history, and it is good to study it as well as scripture.


God never said one day in seven or choose the day of rest. God has authority over the Sabbath and all things.

God created and worked six days Genesis 1. On the seventh day God rested from all of His work and blessed and sanctified the seventh day. He did not bless the first day or any other day only the seventh.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

God wrote His holy law with His own Finger and very clearly spelled out which day we are to keep holy.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God does not leave it up to us to decide which day we are to keep holy. God clearly said the seventh day. By choosing an alternate day you are disobeying and undermining God's authority.


Isaiah 68:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

God only claimed one holy day and the Sabbath day will continue to be the day on the New Earth that we will worship our Lord. Isaiah 66:23

Jesus tells us not to worship in vain by obeying traditions over commandments of God, which the seventh day Sabbath that we are to keep holy is a commandment of God written personally by our Savior and stored along with the other handwritten commandments in the Most holy of God's Temple.
 
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The problem with the SDA is that it rejects the authority given to the Church by God.

The same complaint the Jews could have leveled against Christ's sola scriptura argument in Mark 7:6-13 regarding the one true Nation Church started by God at Sinai with succession of priests done in the manner commanded by God at Sinai and the claim to infallible teaching and tradition.

The same complaint the Jews could have leveled against Stephen argument in Acts 7 regarding the one true Nation Church started by God at Sinai with succession of priests done in the manner commanded by God at Sinai and the claim to infallible teaching and tradition.

The same complaint the Ethiopian in your own Acts 8 example could have leveled against Philip regarding the one true Nation Church started by God at Sinai with succession of priests done in the manner commanded by God at Sinai and the claim to infallible teaching and tradition.

I am more than happy to argue that the church I belong to has good doctrinal teaching. My argument is never against the church.

But as Paul said in Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them.

As John points out in 3 John - they even tossed people out of the churches for daring to hold to the Apostle's teachings... in the first century.


That was the authority given to Peter and the Apostles, and it was used to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
Wouldn't it be great to have one of the NT apostles say "yes we were given the authority to edit the Word of God, the Law of God so we are editing one of the Ten Commandments - pointing it to week-day-1 right where it says 'the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) - it shall from now on say 'the FIRST day is the Sabbath of the LORD' ".

Obviously you have no such text - but you hardly "blame me" for that.

What is more IF they had "redefined the Sabbath" that way - then we would NOT find both Jews and gentiles in synagogue for Gospel preaching "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:4 - since that would mean non-Christian Jews were gathered every week-day-1 in the synagogue to hear gospel preaching.

Not at all workable and we all know it. (It is not just SDAs that see that as a problem)


The Catholic Church teaches rest and worship one day in seven just as God commands.

Does the Commandment say "one day in seven" or does it say "THE Seventh day" Ex 20:10 where in Exodus 16 it outright says "tomorrow IS THE Sabbath" and no manna fell on exactly that very day - for 40 years?? Your claim is that God says "one day in 7" but again - you have no such text.


The book From Sabbath to Sunday correctly states that the directive to worship on Sunday came from the Church in Rome

True - but it does not say that it happened in the first century.
 
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BobRyan

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When we use sola scriptura we reject all of the authority of the Christian fathers that came before us

1. Not if we include NT writers as "the Christian fathers that came before us"

. We set ourselves up as arbiters of truth and reject authority.

Your own example of the Ethiopian in Acts 8 rejects the authority of the priests and elders of his own magisterium to believe a complete stranger (Philip) that gives the correct sola scriptura understanding of Isaiah 53.
 
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BobRyan

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The Sabbath law was not abrogated by the Church but moved to Sunday

It is true that it is historic record that some entity claimed to have changed the Sabbath from "the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10 --- to "the first day is the Sabbath of the LORD". But that entity was not writing about such a change in the Bible. It did not exist at that time.

Your own document "The Faith Explained" - a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II (be Leo Trese) says this


The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church​

Now it is obvious to folks like you and me - that SDAs actually agree with the bulk of Trese's argument about who made the change and why they made it and that it has no support in the Bible for the change itself so a sola-scriptura test would declare that doctrine about Sunday "fails the test) if that is all one was using.

That Catholic argument works pretty good with non-Catholic Sunday keeping Christians because it is the high-ground of a logical position. But since Sabbath keeping Christians already agree with their point that this does not pass the sola scriptura test - the argument does not work so well with us.
 
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Freth

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The problem with the SDA is that it rejects the authority given to the Church by God. Whatever you declare loosed on Earth will be loosed in Heaven and whatever you declare bound one Earth will be bound in heaven. That was the authority given to Peter and the Apostles, and it was used to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

When we use sola scriptura we reject all of the authority of the Christian fathers that came before us. We set ourselves up as arbiters of truth and reject authority. The Church has a 2000 year history, and it is good to study it as well as scripture.

One doesn't have to go that far back in church history to find problematic differences between what a church teaches and what the word of God says.

Pope Francis:

There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations. These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies. (Pope Francis, Audience of June 25, 2014, Vatican)​

Scripture:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.​

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first [apostasy], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This is not a denominational issue, it's a universal issue among churches; that liberty is taken over scripture to dictate a different gospel than what Jesus Himself taught.
 
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The book From Sabbath to Sunday correctly states that the directive to worship on Sunday came from the Church in Rome,

I attended one of the presentations that author gave regarding his experience at the Pontifical Gregoriana University.

You may find this very interesting -- but at about the 32:00 minute point it gets down to the conclusion. All of it very interesting.

 
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