Seventh-day Adventist Church is sola-scriptura testing - but not sola-tradition testing

[BobRyan]

Christianity Today in its Jan/Feb 2015 article -- said that the Seventh-day Adventist church was at that time the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.

So why does the Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) church still test its doctrines sola-scriptura instead of sola-tradition? Wouldn't that mean it is risking being "orthodox" in the Biblical sense but not "orthodox" in the traditional sense?

The Bible shows us a clash can exist between tradition and scripture in Mark 7:6-13 in Christ's day.

Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

"Word of God" = "Commandments of God" = "Moses said" -- according to Christ in Mark 7

Here we see Christ slam-hammers the one-true-nation-church of His day - started by God at Sinai. And He does so - with a "sola scriptura" test of a given tradition.

===============

Acts 17:11 Paul himself is tested "Sola scriptura" to SEE IF the things he as an Apostle taught "were so".
"11 Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, studied the Scriptures daily to see whether these things (spoken to them by the Apostle Paul) were so."

================
Acts 8 – Ethiopian Eunuch

The "sola scriptura" model of scripture that we see in Acts 17:11 does not say "do not explain scripture to anyone" rather it says that if someone tells you to test all teaching/interpretation/tradition by the Bible. So then it says if you are told that Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah but rather it is about Israel suffering persecution from gentiles (Which some people do teach) you need to look at the scripture details closely "and SEE IF - those things are so" Acts 17:11.

And so in the example above (Acts 8) - Philip explains the scripture - but does not say "obviously I am a total stranger to you -- just believe whatever I tell you about this chapter". Rather the eunuch must look at the text and decide for himself if Philip is right or his magisterium is right.

Philip does not say "within my own group I am considered a disciple so you should believe whatever I tell you to believe even though I am nobody at all to you... that's how we do it".

In fact that actual magisterium of the religion that the Ethiopian eunuch (an apparent proselyte of the Jews) was part of... His own magisterium would have told him to reject Philip's teaching and all his claims to know what Isaiah 53 really meant.

==================

In Gal 1:6-9 Paul argues that if we read the Bible and see what the NT authors proclaimed as the Gospel and the full acceptance of scripture as the Word of God - and then find that someone comes along and contradicts that Word - they are to be rejected.

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Official belief statements - are tested sola scriptura and they are here:
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? | Adventist.org

The opening statement at that page says this:

"Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture."

1. Some people will object saying that you cannot really find out if something is true or not unless you add tradition to the Bible - but in that case the sola-scriptura position above should be easy to test and see if it proves its case using scripture alone.

2. Other people will object saying they didn't know the Adventist church limited itself to a sola-scriptura test. But in that case it should be easy to check out the statements there to see if sola scriptura is "enough" to make the case you find there.

 

[BobRyan]

What about "the Bible" ? were NT authors reporting that the term "ALL of Scripture" and the term "scriptures" were "undefined" for the NT readers until some church council would come along 100's of years later and inform them?

As we just saw in Mark 7 - Christ taught as if what they had even in his day was sufficient to test tradition. And we saw that "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" in Acts 17:11 - where the author writes as if the reader knows what "studied the scriptures" means.

What about in Luke 24:25-27? Does Luke think his readers know what "all the scriptures" means? Apparently so.

25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

How about starting in vs 44?

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

 

[BobRyan]

I suspect a number of other Christian denominations would also choose to stand on this same "sola scriptura testing" platform - as did many Protestant Reformers.

 

[dqhall]

Christianity Today said in its Jan/Feb 2015 article -- said that the Seventh-day Adventist church was at that time the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.

So why does the Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) church still test its doctrines sola-scriptura instead of sola-tradition? Wouldn't that mean it is risking being "orthodox" in the Biblical sense but not "orthodox" in the traditional sense?

The Bible shows us a clash can exist between tradition and scripture in Mark 7:6-13 in Christ's day.

Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

"Word of God" = "Commandments of God" = "Moses said" -- according to Christ in Mark 7

Here we see Christ slam-hammers the one-true-nation-church of His day - started by God at Sinai. And He does so - with a "sola scriptura" test of a given tradition.

Acts 17:11 Paul himself is tested "Sola scriptura" to SEE IF the things he as an Apostle taught "were so".
"11 Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, studied the Scriptures daily to see whether these things (spoken to them by the Apostle Paul) were so."

In Gal 1:6-9 Paul argues that if we read the Bible and see what the NT authors proclaimed as the Gospel and the full acceptance of scripture as the Word of God - and then find that someone comes along and contradicts that Word - they are to be rejected.

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Official belief statements - are tested sola scriptura and they are here:
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? | Adventist.org

The opening statement at that page says this:

"Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture."

1. Some people will object saying that you cannot really find out if something is true or not unless you add tradition to the Bible - but in that case the sola-scriptura position above should be easy to test and see if it proves its case using scripture alone.

2. Other people will object saying they didn't know the Adventist church limited itself to a sola-scriptura test. But in that case it should be easy to check out the statements there to see if sola scriptura is "enough" to make the case you find there.

I watched a sermon at a local SDA church online. He made some useful statements about persistence. I saw they suggested offerings and tithes of 20 percent of my income for various funds.

If my surviving parent is in need of financial support and I give to the church instead, I am not honoring my parent. That is what honor your father and mother is about. My dad has enough for now, but the sermon did not seem worth 20% of my income. I stopped watching sermons there. I can watch YouTube sermons for free along with viewing some ads that pays for it.

 

[Not David]

What about "the Bible" ? were NT authors reporting that the term "ALL of Scripture" and the term "scriptures" were "undefined" for the NT readers until some church council would come along 100's of years later and inform them?

As we just saw in Mark 7 - Christ taught as if what they had even in his day was sufficient to test tradition. And we saw that "they studied the scriptures to SEE IF those things were so" in Acts 17:11 - where the author writes as if the reader knows what that means.

What about in Luke 24:25-27? Does Luke think his readers know what "all the scriptures" means? Apparently so.

25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

How about starting in vs 44?

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

The Scriptures was the Old Testament.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I wouldn't ask that you not test things by scripture or 'tradition alone'. Only that you at least give the tradition (of the Church before the existence of the SDA) some measure of respect.

 

[ChetSinger]

There are a number of Protestant churches that claim to be sola scriptura or the equivalent of it. Mine, for example. When their doctrines don't agree with one another, such as when they interpret the same passage in different ways, what is to be done?

 

[BobRyan]

The Scriptures was the Old Testament.

That is true in Luke 24 and Acts 17 - so then no question at all about the Hebrew Bible as "scripture"

- but then Peter reminds us that NT letters were also being accepted as "scripture"

2 Peter 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

And Paul admits this about how his own letters were being received in 1 Thess 2
1 Thess 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea,

So no indication there that NT saints in the first century did not know those letters were the "Word of God" to be accepted "Along with the rest of scripture".

But even that does not matter since even to this very day - there is no dispute even among Christian denominations about what belongs in the NT.

 

[BobRyan]

There are a number of Protestant churches that claim to be sola scriptura or the equivalent of it. Mine, for example. When their doctrines don't agree with one another, such as when they interpret the same passage in different ways, what is to be done?

When you find that sola scriptura testing is revealing a problem in your current situation - and all else fails -- look for another fellowship that has that part right (if your own group refuses to accept light on that point)

 

[BobRyan]

I wouldn't ask that you not test things by scripture or 'tradition alone'. Only that you at least give the tradition (of the Church before the existence of the SDA) some measure of respect.

All Christians deserve respect. Sola scriptura testing is not another way to say "don't respect Christians not in your denomination"

 

[BobRyan]

I watched a sermon at a local SDA church online. He made some useful statements about persistence. I saw they suggested offerings and tithes of 20 percent of my income for various funds.
.

Different people will "suggest" different things - the Bible speaks of tithe as a tenth. It also mentions offerings but does not dictate what that % or amount is ..

I included the link to the voted-on Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church as a way to compare "what I heard someone suggest" vs "what are the actual doctrines" of this denomination.

 

[BobRyan]

I watched a sermon at a local SDA church online. He made some useful statements about persistence. I saw they suggested offerings and tithes of 20 percent of my income for various funds.

We have no percentage at all listed for offerings in our official statement. It is free will offering


our "Belief 21" says this

"We are God’s stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God’s ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow human beings, and by returning tithe and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. Stewards rejoice in the blessings that come to others as a result of their faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; Matt. 23:23; Rom. 15:26, 27; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; 9:7.)"​

Interesting that no percentage at all is mentioned even for tithe. But in the Bible tithe is said to be a tenth since Lev 27:30-33 leads many people to conclude that tithe is a tenth of the increase.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

All Christians deserve respect. Sola scriptura testing is not another way to say "don't respect Christians not in your denomination"

Not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about personally respecting other Christians.

What I mean is respect for the tradition of the Church itself. The SDA strike me as a rather reactionary Church in how they critique Sunday worship and don't really view themselves as in direct continuity with the historic Church.

All I would encourage is reading and learning about the tradition (the fathers, the practices and like) with a degree of respect. This means not reading someone like Augustine or Irenaeus with hostility, but with a regard to their place as continuing and preserving the tradition they had received.

 

[Not David]

That is true in Luke 24 and Acts 17 - so then no question at all about the Hebrew Bible as "scripture"

- but then Peter reminds us that NT letters were also being accepted as "scripture"

2 Peter 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

And Paul admits this about how his own letters were being received in 1 Thess 2
1 Thess 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea,

So no indication there that NT saints in the first century did not know those letters were the "Word of God" to be accepted "Along with the rest of scripture".

But even that does not matter since even to this very day - there is no dispute even among Christian denominations about what belongs in the NT.

"You have heard" sounds more like Tradition

 

[BobRyan]

"You have heard" sounds more like Tradition

"You have heard... but I say" in Matt 5?

Jesus was quoting OT scripture.

Matt 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
..21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Ex 20: "13 You shall not murder." (One of the TEN)

 

[Not David]

"You have heard... but I say" in Matt 5?

Jesus was quoting OT scripture.

Matt 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
..21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Ex 20: "13 You shall not murder." (One of the TEN)

Which wasn't written first.

 

[BobRyan]

Which wasn't written first.

What wasn't written at the time that Matthew writes Matt 5 ??? Exodus??

 

[Not David]

What wasn't written at the time that Matthew writes Matt 5 ??? Exodus??

What Christ said.

 

[BobRyan]

What Christ said.

Matthew wrote Matt 5 long after Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven.

 

[dqhall]

We have no percentage at all listed for offerings in our official statement. It is free will offering


our "Belief 21" says this

"We are God’s stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God’s ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow human beings, and by returning tithe and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. Stewards rejoice in the blessings that come to others as a result of their faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; Matt. 23:23; Rom. 15:26, 27; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; 9:7.)"​

Interesting that no percentage at all is mentioned even for tithe. But in the Bible tithe is said to be a tenth since Lev 27:30-33 leads many people to conclude that tithe is a tenth of the increase.

A tenth is 10%. This individual SDA church donation web page suggested giving 20%. Some might quote Jesus, Luke 6:38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you."

I must have given to the wrong people sometimes. In this case I have a rule of thumb. I am supposed to give alms to the poor, not to the rich. I watched a different church sermon online. This northern Florida preacher talked about a time when he was only able to afford a fixer upper. His dad was also a pastor and took two weeks off from his job to help his son fix it before his son could sell it. I checked his current address is a recent built 2600 sq. ft. home in a quiet neighborhood close to town.

A different pastor had a megachurch in Naples, FL. I watched part of his sermon. He is preaching out of a business closed on Sundays after his congregation fired him from his megachurch. I read a story I can not fact check about a multi-millionaire who liked the deposed preacher. The millionaire was renting his megachurch and acreage to to the congregation for $10/yr. He did not like the new pastor. He raised the church rent to $10,000/mo. and asked the congregation to remedy some illegal partitions done without a building permit. Some houses in that area have been selling for $750,000 to $1,000,000.

Sometimes it is better to own a home than to rent.