Serious Question: Is Modalism a Damnable Heresy or just a Heresy ?

[redleghunter]

Except the Bible calls Jesus the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6) and since Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30), it's not too far of a stretch to make that argument. You cannot have Jesus without having the Father, and you cannot have the Father without having Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, it was the equivalent as having the Father die upon the cross.

Is that title in Isaiah 9:6 making a profound statement on the Nature of God? Or a Messianic title with other meanings? I ask because the Jews called Abraham father as well.

 

[Call me Nic]

Is that title in Isaiah 9:6 making a profound statement on the Nature of God? Or a Messianic title with other meanings? I ask because the Jews called Abraham father as well.

But Abraham wasn't the "Everlasting Father." Nor was he the "Mighty God."

We know it speaks of Jesus because it says, "Unto us a child is born." God calls things that aren't as though they were, because time is of no difference to God (Romans 4:17). Therefore, Jesus is and always was the Son of God, because Jesus is and always was going to be born of a virgin as God manifest in the flesh.

 

[redleghunter]

You cannot have Jesus without having the Father, and you cannot have the Father without having Jesus.

That's because there is only One God. But then we see the Father a Person with Divine attributes of God, we The Son a Person with Divine attributes of God, and we see the Holy Spirit a Person with Divine attributes of God. One God Three Divine Persons. It's not that hard and the rest is taken as mystery.

When Jesus died on the cross, it was the equivalent as having the Father die upon the cross.

No this is not true. What you described above is Patripassionism

 

[A_Thinker]

We are to mature in understanding of the scriptures.
We are body, soul (mind) and spirit.
Those born of God have been created as having a new alive spirit inside of them, one that is spiritually in fellowship with God, joined as one spirit with Him, regardless of the age or maturity level of the saved person. We need to align our minds with the Word of God. But our spirits born of God are already perfected spiritually and do not sin as apostle John says and Paul writes we were created according to the will of God in true righteousness and holiness, the inner man of the spirit.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Spiritually we do not need to know gnostically spiritual truths to be born of God.
Those who are born again, Jesus tells us to marvel not, it is not under your control, they are born according to the Spirit and not the will of the flesh. And God reveals the things of God from His Spirit to our spirits the deep things of God.

Ephesians 4
The New Man
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Where in scripture does God say that understanding His nature is a priority for His followers ?

Jesus said that men would discern that we are His followers ... by our LOVE for one another.

John 13

34 "A new commandment I give to you ... that you love one another as I have loved you. 35 By this will all men know that you are my disciples ... if you have love for one another."

Maybe we should spend less time arguing for our understanding of God's nature (and accusing those that don't agree with heresy) ... and MORE time loving one another.

Doesn't it seem that we've become a fair bit Pharisaical ?

Matthew 23

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides ! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

 

[redleghunter]

This came up before ,
and in Scripture it is written
that Yahweh is not a man,
Yahweh is not a person/ human.
Period.

(man's slang calls God a person; but His Word Says Clearly He is NOT a person/ not a human)

The theological definition of Person:

"By 'person' we mean one who has his own identity or individuality as a rational being, conscious of his own existence." [1]In other words, a person is a particular being with generally one center of consciousness. In the Being of God there are three Centers of consciousness. A person is unique among beings in having capacities to reason and exercise the will.​

Not to be confused with the pedestrian definition of person as in a carbon based life form.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The theological definition of Person:

"By 'person' we mean one who has his own identity or individuality as a rational being, conscious of his own existence." [1]In other words, a person is a particular being with generally one center of consciousness. In the Being of God there are three Centers of consciousness. A person is unique among beings in having capacities to reason and exercise the will.​

Not to be confused with the pedestrian definition of person as in a carbon based life form.

This contradicts Scripture IF you think this means or says Yahweh is a human/ person.

 

[redleghunter]

A child can believe and be saved. I'm sure there will be people who had a bunch of stuff wrong in heaven. But also, once you have matured and considered these questions, you can't go back to being the child, you have to get your answers from the word, and grow in understanding. Only God knows who is a sincere seeker of truth and who is decieved.

Valid point. However as our capacity to learn God's Word increases so should our knowledge....Each according to the light given. My brother personally ministers to adults who will never have the mental capacity of beyond 8 years of age. Each according to the light given.

 

[Call me Nic]

That's because there is only One God. But then we see the Father a Person with Divine attributes of God, we The Son a Person with Divine attributes of God, and we see the Holy Spirit a Person with Divine attributes of God. One God Three Divine Persons. It's not that hard and the rest is taken as mystery.

Then why does Jesus say that when a person looked upon him, they saw the Father as well? (John 14:7). You can't say that if you look upon my son, that you see me personally because we are different people entirely. Thus, Jesus couldn't have made that statement unless he was making the point that when you look upon him, you are looking upon the Father as well, the reason being that they are the same person.

How is this the case? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24), and is the invisible God that no man has seen (John 1:18), but Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). So when Jesus says that you see him (looking upon the visible image), it is the same as looking upon the Father (the invisible image). Same person, same will, same mind, same Spirit.

Otherwise, you start delving into polytheism by dividing and separating the power and functions of the different "persons," even though the Bible clearly teaches that Christ is the same Creator that the Father is (Colossians 1:16-17). You can't have more than one Creator.

No this is not true. What you described above is Patripassionism

Then you are saying that Jesus is not equal with the Father, which is blasphemy (Philippians 2:5-6). You can't say that God the Father and God the Son are both equally God that are inseparable and then claim that Jesus dying on the cross is not the equivalent to the Father dying on the cross.

 

[sdowney717]

Where in scripture does God say that understanding His nature is a priority for His followers ?

Jesus said that men would discern that we are His followers ... by our LOVE for one another.

John 13

34 "A new commandment I give to you ... that you love one another as I have loved you. 35 By this will all men know that you are my disciples ... if you have love for one another."

Maybe we should spend less time arguing for our understanding of God's nature (and accusing those that don't agree with heresy) ... and MORE time loving one another.

Doesn't it seem that we've become a fair bit Pharisaical ?

Matthew 23

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides ! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

People don't love what they hate, and people dont love heresies or heretics.
The love one another is for a witness to the world that we belong to Christ. I would say a heretic does not belong to Christ. God disciplines and teaches into the truth all those He receives, if you experience none of that then you are not His child.
Heretics do not inherit the kingdom of God, a heretic by their life and practice, love and believe and teach a lie contrary to the sound words of Christ and the apostles.
Hebrews 12:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[redleghunter]

This contradicts Scripture IF you think this means or says Yahweh is a human/ person.

If you read it, it does not suggest at all YHWH is a human other than coming in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth truly God and truly man. God is Spirit, Jesus said so. That does not deny God is Person in the sense of being. Person does not have to be limited to a corporeal being made in the Image and according to the likeness of God.

 

[redleghunter]

Then why does Jesus say that when a person looked upon him, they saw the Father as well? (John 14:7).

Because Jesus Christ as God the Son is One with the Father. That is the very heart of the Trinity---ONE GOD Three Divine Persons.

Trinity debates usually go in these circles because the Deity of Jesus Christ Son of God is usually not discussed first.

Is Jesus Christ Truly God and Truly Man with a Divine Nature and human nature but one Person? That's where to start. If we get that wrong, we get the Trinity wrong.

 

[A_Thinker]

People don't love what they hate, and people dont love heresies or heretics.
The love one another is for a witness to the world that we belong to Christ. I would say a heretic does not belong to Christ. God disciplines and teaches all those He receives, if you experience none of that then you are not His child.
Heretics do not inherit the kingdom of God, a heretic by their life and practice, love and believe and teach a lie contrary to the sound words of Christ and the apostles.
Hebrews 12:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Unless you are Catholic (let me know if your are ... and I will adjust my statement), ... the Catholic church declares that YOU are a heretic.

And that church hated heretics so much ... that they killed millions in trying to exterminate anyone who didn't agree with them.

At it's base, ... heretic is just a name that we call other christians who don't agree with us. The only Person with the real authority to declare one a heretic is God, Himself ...

 

[redleghunter]

If Modalism can be an exception, doesn't it means that Arianism can be one?

Or any of the other errors too for that fact:

Adoptionism - God granted Jesus powers and then adopted him as a Son.

• Albigenses - Reincarnation and two gods: one good and other evil.

• Apollinarianism - Jesus' divine will overshadowed and replaced the human.

• Arianism - Jesus was a lesser, created being.

• Docetism - Jesus was divine but only seemed to be human.

• Donatism - Validity of sacraments depends on character of the minister.

• Eutychianism - Jesus finite human nature is swallowed up in His infinite divine nature.

• Gnosticism - Dualism of good and bad and special knowledge for salvation.

• Kenosis - Jesus gave up some divine attributes while on earth.

• Marcionism - An evil God of the O.T., good God of the N.T. 11, books in the Canon

• Modalism - God is one person in three modes.

• Monarchianism - God is one person.

• Monophysitism - Jesus had only one nature: divine.

• Nestorianism - Jesus was two persons.

• Patripassionism - The Father suffered on the cross.

• Pelagianism - Man is unaffected by the fall and can keep all of God's laws.

• Semi-Pelagianism - Man and God cooperate to achieve man's salvation.

• Socinianism - Denial of the Trinity. Jesus is a deified man.

• Subordinationism - The Son is lesser than the Father in essence and or attributes.

• Tritheism - The Trinity is really three separate gods.

 

[redleghunter]

Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity.

Which is just another way of explaining Modalism.

 

[GodsGrace101]

But that story is told---Father, Son, Holy Spirit....That's how we baptize too!

I THINK I agree with you.
God has manifested Himself in different ways and at different times. But not in the way modulism states.

When God manifested Himself in the O.T., the son was still present and the Holy Spirit were still present. They didn't come about because God "needed" them for some purpose.

Although they DO each serve a purpose. Father did not hang on the cross, Son did. But Father and Holy Spirit were there too. PERHAPS, Father left Son at the words: My God, My God, why hast though forsaken me. (we can't know this for sure).

Too much to know. I always learn something new when we talk about the Trinity.

 

[redleghunter]

The history is complex, but I think it started by the conviction that Christ is divine.

I do agree that if one gets the Deity of Christ wrong they will get the Nature of God wrong.

 

[Call me Nic]

Because Jesus Christ as God the Son is One with the Father. That is the very heart of the Trinity---ONE GOD Three Divine Persons.

Trinity debates usually go in these circles because the Deity of Jesus Christ Son of God is usually not discussed first.

Is Jesus Christ Truly God and Truly Man with a Divine Nature and human nature but one Person? That's where to start. If we get that wrong, we get the Trinity wrong.

The thing is when you start saying "Three persons," you're adding to scripture, because no where in the Bible does it ever say that God is made up of three persons. It just says record-bearers, which doesn't vindicate a Trinitarian. The reason is because in 1 John 5:7, it says that the three (who bear record in heaven) are one (altogether one who bears record in heaven).

The deity of Jesus Christ is that he is the Word, and when Jesus speaks, he speaks the Word of God. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The words that Jesus speaks are spirit (John 6:63), and God is a Spirit (John 4:24), so if what God speaks is spirit, and Jesus is the Word, Jesus must be the Spirit of God incarnate.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot get around the fact that scripture teaches the unity of the Godhead as being absolutely inseparable, and yet when you teach the individuality of each "person" as being separate within the Godhead, you start treading into dangerous waters, in my opinion. Scripture clearly doesn't teach that. I think it's more of a problem to say that Jesus is not the Father, then it is to say that Jesus is the Father. Christ clearly taught you cannot separate the two at all, which is what most Christians try to do.

 

[sdowney717]

Unless you are Catholic (let me know if your are ... and I will adjust my statement), ... the Catholic church declares that YOU are a heretic.

And that church hated heretics so much ... that they killed millions of them.

At it's base, ... heretic is just a name that we call other christians who don't agree with us. The only Person with the authority to declare one a heretic is God, Himself ...

Paul taught that we can discern heresies.
Heretics do not agree with scriptures, and they twist scripture, and as Peter said especially that written by Paul to their own destruction. And they can twist all the scriptures, to make things fit their doctrines. So yes, it is a serious matter to be a heretic.
Jesus told us we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

Paul said wicked men and deceivers will grow worse and worse right to the end. BUT, we must continue
in the truth found in the scriptures. God knows those who are His.

2 Timothy 3:12-15 New King James Version (NKJV)

12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

No not catholic.
I think Catholicism to be somewhat heretical, and I have no love for that religion or Popery. We are not to kill steal destroy heretics, we need to leave this judgement up to God. We are supposed to do good to those who persecute us. Catholics who tortured and murdered are satanic, not of Christ.

There is no shortage of bad actors out there, they are of the world.

 

[Albion]

Except the Bible calls Jesus the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6)….

Actually, it says

his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[redleghunter]

But Abraham wasn't the "Everlasting Father." Nor was he the "Mighty God."

We know it speaks of Jesus because it says, "Unto us a child is born." God calls things that aren't as though they were, because time is of no difference to God (Romans 4:17). Therefore, Jesus is and always was the Son of God, because Jesus is and always was going to be born of a virgin as God manifest in the flesh.

Again, "Everlasting Father" is used in a Messianic passage which would apply to a Messianic attribute. It could as easily mean Messiah is Everlasting Father of the Kingdom. It could also mean Author of Eternal Life as Messiah lays down His life for the sheep.