semi-pelagianism defined

[FreeinChrist]

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Never said you called Calvin a heretic. I said you

1. referred to them in a derogatory manner:

"It is a fall-back accusation that I have come to deeply disrespect. By "fall back accusation", I mean the idea of 'if you can't convince with ...accuse of heresy'."

2. Implied that they are also "heretics":

"So when the finger-pointing goes on about "heresy", what I see is that some chose to point fingers at one group and totally ignore that other anthema. Selective heresy-pointing???"

I guess you are right that one could think my intention was to call Calvin a heretic...and those that believe in double predestination as heretics...but I usually do not UNLESS I see the term 'semipelagian' used in a manner to call others heretics. I was trying to be ironic but didn't pull it off.

It is the tactic of referring to others as semi-pelagian to dismiss their view when they are not that I am being critical about. And I will NOT apologize for that. It is an allegation made to make the other person out to be a heretic.

Personally, before I came to this mb, I was far more agreeable to Calvinism.

Now the question I have is this - if the early councils stated semi-pelagianism a heresy, and ALSO said that those who believe that some are predestined for damnation should be anthema...why is it that I only see Reformed jumping on Arminians (and those that disagree with Reformed views)...but not on those that promote double predestination? THAT is why my comment above about 'selective-heresy' hunting.

With all due respect, FiC, you just got done saying that Calvinists "accuse of heresy...if [they] can't convince with" their argument (broad-based presumption of motivation), reject as semi-pelagian any who believe the "rare concept that that one MUST BELIEVE in Jesus Christ to receive the gift of salvation, which is by grace through faith" (sola fide was at the heart of the Reformation), and that we believe one is "saved before believing" (again, sola fide).

Believe me, I understand what it's like to have false claims made against you.

Yet that is the experience I have had here...and a number of others (who will not come here anymore), and it seems to be the focus of about every thread. Reformed (Calvinism) vs. Arminianism with a RARE other topic.

And my statement above is based on discussions with Reformed believers.
I have stated that God does the work of salvation, but that we have to beleive - it must be a choice we make - and have been labeled semi-pelagian despite the fact that I don't beleive I can do anything for my own salvation.
And I have had too many Reformed tell me that one is regenerated before belief...when regeneration is very much salvation of the soul.

So sorry, but I stand by every word I wrote.

I think the conclusion you are jumping to is that if I say what you believe is heresy, I therefore think that you are not saved. Let me assure you that is not at all the case.

heretic: An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine.

We are heretics all, my friend. I would wager none of us here is 100% correct about all of our doctrine. Not to worry...there will be no burnings

That is nice sounding explanation, however, I really believe it just offends a great many people. I have had friends come to this mb for Christian fellowship and wander here and GT and left the mb because they were offended by Christians. Badly offended - and they were not semi-pelagians by any means. They would rather go to nonChristian forums. (isn't that sad?) 'heresy' is NOT a nice word. It has bad implications. That is why I have pm'd Angel and Erwin a number of times complaining about the free use of the word.

 

[pachomi33]

Hello.
I've enjoyed the previous posts, however polemical and acerbic they appear to get here at times You mentioned that the early councils condemned semipelagianism and double predestination. That is absolutely true. But Pelagianism was primarily a problem in the Christian West. Augustine in interacting with Pelagius had modified his views, in fact introducing an extreme view of predestination toward the end of it. Augustine's teaching- which- in it's incipient form is similar to Luther's in his early writings- was instantly a cause of dispute. France was in an uproar. Vincent of Lerin's wrote indirectly against him and John Cassian an abbot and writer openly condemned Augustine's predestinarian tendencies. Augustine had to write o the monks to clarify his teachings. John Cassian's views in the WEst are representative of the East as well. He is sometimes labeled as a Semipelagian, but that is because his approach to human nature and the fall was allied more closely with earlier Eastern tradition than Augustine. What exactly he taught and traditionally the whole East, is that salvation is a synergy (Cf. 2 Cor.6:1). Human nature consists (and this is later Byzantine expression) of the Ikon of God- the Image of God- the Logos in man, which is indestructible. We would call that a physis or nature. Men are naturally born to have communion with God. The Logos in them is to be in communication with the Logos of God Jesus Christ. A loving dialogue of communion. However man is born without the Holy Spirit- being deprived of Him. Hence depraved, does not have the power (dynamis) to enter into that communion and hence is dead in sins, being separate from God. As we continue to sin a bent toward evil develops, a gnomic will- or habitual will. Thus men can have varying degrees of depravity. Or in other words one's heart can be soft or harder depending on your response to truth (Cf. MT.13:11-15). Christ perfected (deified) human nature. imparting His own dynamis- power- to human nature. Christ now gives that power to become the son of God (Jn.1:12)by adoption to all who walk in the Spirit. We are not condemned so long as we have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us by Christ who writes the law on the tables of our heart. (2 Cor.3; Rom.8:1-4)
As another note. Tertullian in the WEst introduced the doctrine of merit, or reward. The east never saw salvation as a reward as in the Pelagian and semipelagian system. It is the gift of God's eternal life. It is without beginning or end, and the only way we participate in that Divine nature is by wlking in the light, ie keep the commandments. God Himself is the reward (Gen.15)
On another note, prevenient grace is not viewed the same in the EAst. Man is separated from the adoptive grace of God. But the Logos in man is the work of God ALWAYS leading man to salvation. So prevenient grace is inherent in nature, because nature is gracious. God will strive with a man till he dies. Nature just doesn't have a "natural" participation in the eternal Life of God. The evil in man is something he creates himself

Lastly, as an aside on Calvinism, which says many good things BTW the Orthodox Church did condemn it at I believe 1674. It is seen as a blasphemy to God as Creator.
It also teaches the heresy of monophystism. That is the belief that implies (note I did not state that was the exact teaching, but that it was implied) the human nature of man is swallowed up by the Divine, ie irresistable grace.
I was a Calvinist for many years till I was irresistably drawn out of it, notwithstanding something of it's good teachings.
The good bishop Kallistos addressed an audience and said with a sneer that he was an Arminian.
Thanks for your posts and interaction. Truth is always to be kata (according to) holikos (the whole) ie catholic (in the good sense!) Heresy comes from the Gk. word airesis, choice. We choose to take a portion.When one divides scriptures and does not join all the meanings together it happens.
Blessings

 

[SkittishKat]

I am now a conservative christian that is non-calvinist, non Arminian, and semi Pelagian with leanings toward Open Theism, whatever that means. And all this from independent Bible study. The question you have got to ask yourselves is "Am I out to lunch, or does the Emperior have no clothes.

Greetings Van, I think you've 'hit the nail of the head.'
I skimmed the messages chain again and I think what we have here is:

A VIRTIAL TOWER OF BABLE! (not shouting)

In fellowship,
SkittishKat