Selling point

[UnderPar]

Yes, we only speculate of an afterlife, but we testify of what we know here and now. The scriptures are mostly focused on bringing Heaven to Earth (Matthew 6:10 - although the devil's doctrines in Christianity have shifted the hope to the realm of speculation, see Isaiah 28:15-18). I do have three verses for you to consider though: 1 Kings 22:19-23, John 14:2, Revelation 12:7-12. Heaven contains only those who honour the sovereignty of Yahweh God, who love righteousness.

I don't know your background yet, but if you'd like to check that you have the basics of the gospel right, I can recommend this link:

www.adonai-reigns.life/the-gospel

How do you bring heaven to earth, is heaven a metaphysical construct?

 

[UnderPar]

Forgiveness of sins and release from guilt, access to God's power to overcome sin on a daily basis, the possibility of becoming all I was meant to be, to develop fully the gifts God gave me for the benefit of his people, membership in Christ's "body" the (true) church - which has given me brothers and sisters around the world (really! through my job I have travelled a lot!), the knowledge and assurance that even "bad things" happening to me can be used for good, motivation in my work and wisdom in dealing with difficult situations, help in coping with pain, disease and bouts of depression.... release from the fear of death... shall I go on?

And of course I look forward to wonders beyond the grave. Escaping from hell is one thing - living with Christ is far more than that. I am assured that eternity will be with Christ - but why should I wait for heaven after I die when I can live it and contribute to its becoming a wider reality before I die?

I have heard that other religions and spiritual beliefs can offer similar qualities. They all preach about some type of rehabilitation and how to refine your morality.

 

[UnderPar]

Yes, I believe we will retain the familial relationships we have here. I believe my grandmother will be my grandmother, just not old.

I know we will recognize people, even people we never met. The disciples recognized Moses and Elisha, although they never knew them or had pictures of them.

That's just your opinion, correct?

 

[UnderPar]

This is what the Bible says about Heaven (or the New Heaven and New Earth, to be precise) Rev. 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

You know that quote from the movie A League of their Own, and Tom Hanks tells the blonde (I think her name is Betty Spaghetti) "There's no crying in baseball!", I always thought people could say "There's no crying in Heaven!"

Crying is a essential component to releasing pain, not the cause of it.

Is it true that the bible states that Angels weep? Or am I mistaken.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I always get the feeling Christians are selling me a ticket to heaven, but they don't seem to know what heaven is like. Oh they can describe hell though, and that makes me wonder.

So what's heaven like Christians.

No one knows, UnderPar. And the Bible doesn't tell us, so I for one would never be a Christian voice that would even attempt to "sell" you on some heavenly real estate. I would only say that we've been told we can make some suggestions.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Serving Zion]

How do you bring heaven to earth, is heaven a metaphysical construct?

Heaven is in the spiritual realm, whereas earth is the physical realm. Therefore, when we exercise faith, we act and speak into the physical realm according to our knowledge of the spiritual realm.

Salvation is about coming to know God in the spiritual realm, because it is to re-establish His right place in our life so that He can teach us how to prosper and sustain life. See all the destruction in the world, it's because mankind makes foolish decisions - they do not consult God's wisdom, they do not exercise self-control, and the majority of those who say they worship God actually do not know Him and follow Him personally.

This is how we bring heaven to earth (consider Amos 3:7, 1 John 4:1 and Romans 8:31-33).

 

[UnderPar]

No one knows, UnderPar. And the Bible doesn't tell us, so I for one would never be a Christian voice that would even attempt to "sell" you on some heavenly real estate. I would only say that we've been told we can make some suggestions.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I have had some time in the Christian camp, it's got me beat to how I accepted the fundamental teachings of Jesus when I had no idea of where I'd end up. Hell on the other hand is quite descriptive, I wonder if all that believing just came down to keeping myself from ending up there.

I guess you don't need such a clear picture of heaven when hell is easily imagined. It does sound like something imagined though, both concepts have serious drawback's and complications.

When I think about it more, heaven is like the drug you so desperately want and hell is the leg breaker warning you to pay up.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have had some time in the Christian camp, it's got me beat to how I accepted the fundamental teachings of Jesus when I had no idea of where I'd end up. Hell on the other hand is quite descriptive, I wonder if all that believing just came down to keeping myself from ending up there.

I guess you don't need such a clear picture of heaven when hell is easily imagined. It does sound like something imagined though, both concepts have serious drawback's and complications.

When I think about it more, heaven is like the drug you so desperately want and hell is the leg breaker warning you to pay up.

It's interesting to hear that you spent some time in the "Christian camp." I imagine that all of that seems like a world away now in how you think about the nature of the world and the possibility (or impossibility) of heaven.

As to the 'hell' thing, UnderPar, I think there are some other hermeneutical ways in which to handle and interpret all that 'fire and brimstone' Bible talk. And besides, for me personally, when I first became a Christian, it wasn't the idea of 'hell' that concerned me. Rather, it was the idea of 'non-existence' that got under my collar; and it just happened to be the descriptive profile of Jesus (more than that of any hell or heaven) that inspired me to give the Christian faith a spin.

But, I know these things work themselves out differently for each one of us as we turn them over in our minds.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[UnderPar]

It's interesting to hear that you spent some time in the "Christian camp." I imagine that all of that seems like a world away now in how you think about the nature of the world and the possibility (or impossibility) of heaven.

As to the 'hell' thing, UnderPar, I think there are some other hermeneutical ways in which to handle and interpret all that 'fire and brimstone' Bible talk. And besides, for me personally, when I first became a Christian, it wasn't the idea of 'hell' that concerned me. Rather, it was the idea of 'non-existence' that got under my collar; and it just happened to be the descriptive profile of Jesus (more than that of any hell or heaven) that inspired me to give the Christian faith a spin.

But, I know these things work themselves out differently for each one of us as we turn them over in our minds.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Actually for me Jesus turned me off Jesus, he's point of view is far over demanding on many issues I had.
I don't know what experiences you had to convince you of your faith in him, but my experiences ended up working against my better judgment. Which destroyed my sensibility and integrity, I really noticed how little Jesus can do when I was struck by illness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Actually for me Jesus turned me off Jesus, he's point of view is far over demanding on many issues I had.
I don't know what experiences you had to convince you of your faith in him, but my experiences ended up working against my better judgment. Which destroyed my sensibility and integrity, I really noticed how little Jesus can do when I was struck by illness.

Yes, when we have certain issues or contract various illnesses, then it often can become more difficult for us to appreciate Christ when these things happen. My own past experiences are an example of some of this. I thought I was letdown when my already schizophrenic mother, who suffered mentally for decades and for whom I prayed often, contracted cancer. And then, despite my prayers, she died at 55 of massive heart failure. At the time, it was hard for me to reconcile what I thought I saw in the bible about the nature of prayer and what I thought I was actually receiving (next to nothing) in response to her ever ongoing decline in health. I came to realize later that some of my expectations were driven by some unfortunate interpretive assumptions about what I was reading in the Bible.

This kind of disappointment with Christianity is especially pungent if we've been conditioned to understand the nature of the Christian faith from a purely Fundamentalist viewpoint. For instance, if we've been taught by our churches that Jesus answers prayers in a way not much different from how the Genie in Aladdin's lamp offers three wishes, then our expectations will typically be extremely high, and our letdown will be extremely painful when reality hits. And one thing I know that is true--the REALITY of our mortality does hit every single one of us at some point, guaranteed. No one escapes.

However, if there is anything descriptive that can be gleaned from the New Testament about the nature of heaven, it is this: it is a state of being wherein there is no more mortality, no more death, no more pain, no more mental anguish, no more disappointment, no more torn relationships, and no more tears. And the light and comfort of Jesus will pull us out from the rain of our earthly lives and place us into a realm where God's love actually can be seen and felt, something that will be for many of us, truly the first time. That's Heaven. That is what it will be.

And that is not a sales pitch; that is just what the Bible indicates will be our place in the future, whether in a transcendent Heaven, or a remade earth, if we have faith. Either way, we will have Jesus Christ at the center of it all providing to us much, much more than the life we found that we couldn't have here.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[UnderPar]

Yes, when we have certain issues or contract various illnesses, then it often can become more difficult for us to appreciate Christ when these things happen. My own past experiences are an example of some of this. I thought I was letdown when my already schizophrenic mother, who suffered mentally for decades and for whom I prayed often, contracted cancer. And then, despite my prayers, she died at 55 of massive heart failure. At the time, it was hard for me to reconcile what I thought I saw in the bible about the nature of prayer and what I thought I was actually receiving (next to nothing) in response to her ever ongoing decline in health. I came to realize later that some of my expectations were driven by some unfortunate interpretive assumptions about what I was reading in the Bible.

This kind of disappointment with Christianity is especially pungent if we've been conditioned to understand the nature of the Christian faith from a purely Fundamentalist viewpoint. For instance, if we've been taught by our churches that Jesus answers prayers in a way not much different from how the Genie in Aladdin's lamp offers three wishes, then our expectations will typically be extremely high, and our letdown will be extremely painful when reality hits. And one thing I know that is true--the REALITY of our mortality does hit every single one of us at some point, guaranteed. No one escapes.

However, if there is anything descriptive that can be gleaned from the New Testament about the nature of heaven, it is this: it is a state of being wherein there is no more mortality, no more death, no more pain, no more mental anguish, no more disappointment, no more torn relationships, and no more tears. And the light and comfort of Jesus will pull us out from the rain of our earthly lives and place us into a realm where God's love actually can be seen and felt, something that will be for many of us, truly the first time. That's Heaven. That is what it will be.

And that is not a sales pitch; that is just what the Bible indicates will be our place in the future, whether in a transcendent Heaven, or a remade earth, if we have faith. Either way, we will have Jesus Christ at the center of it all providing to us much, much more than the life we found that we couldn't have here.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Wll you still have freewill in heaven? If so what's stopping anyone from doing the wrong thing there. If perfect Angels can fall while in the presence of the holy one, then are we going to have the choice to rebel taken from us? It might sound nice to dream of a wonderful place where there is no pain and sickness, but it's one you can only imagine.

 

[Monna]

I have heard that other religions and spiritual beliefs can offer similar qualities. They all preach about some type of rehabilitation and how to refine your morality

Most religions I have studied are underpinned with similar "moralities." But most religions I have looked at, including formalised Christianity, have set rituals, codes of conduct (especially what you must NOT do), and a creed you must adhere to. What I have found in Christ is a personal relationship. I assume you have personal relationships (as distinct from formal, legal, ones like contracts). So you know that relationships, if constructive and positive, grow and change. A good relationship is not built on codified and permanent rules of behaviour, but on mutual respect, mutual consideration and love (of some degree), on thoughtfulness, on mutual trust.

Most religions don't tell me that God loves me, that he trusts me, that he believes in me, that he will never give up on me, that he wants me to partner with him in my personal development toward being a truly whole human being. God has taken the initiative to forgive me, I think primarily, to heal me and bring me into relationship with him. That he saves me from hell is great. That he promises me heaven (on earth and in the hereafter) is so typical of him! But he doesn't save so much from as he does to or for something. He does it for his own sake (because he wants to, he loves me) and for mine (because he knows that I will be more in harmony with myself, and with my neighbours).

 

[UnderPar]

Most religions I have studied are underpinned with similar "moralities." But most religions I have looked at, including formalised Christianity, have set rituals, codes of conduct (especially what you must NOT do), and a creed you must adhere to. What I have found in Christ is a personal relationship. I assume you have personal relationships (as distinct from formal, legal, ones like contracts). So you know that relationships, if constructive and positive, grow and change. A good relationship is not built on codified and permanent rules of behaviour, but on mutual respect, mutual consideration and love (of some degree), on thoughtfulness, on mutual trust.

Most religions don't tell me that God loves me, that he trusts me, that he believes in me, that he will never give up on me, that he wants me to partner with him in my personal development toward being a truly whole human being. God has taken the initiative to forgive me, I think primarily, to heal me and bring me into relationship with him. That he saves me from hell is great. That he promises me heaven (on earth and in the hereafter) is so typical of him! But he doesn't save so much from as he does to or for something. He does it for his own sake (because he wants to, he loves me) and for mine (because he knows that I will be more in harmony with myself, and with my neighbours).

But Jesus lay's down many rules, rules that have to be taken seriously or you risk destroying your soul. But that's just one teacher out of many who think they know how to tune into God.

Ok so Christianity might claim salvation by grace and not by works as many other religions do, but I still have to do what he say's right? I still have to work at, bible study, prayer, church service, using gifts, charity. I mean, where is the freedom from service here? I can't believe in my own way, decide for myself what I think I should follow or not.

It's all or nothing, Jesus doesn't care for the grey areas. Christianity for me proved one thing, I can't enlarge on what's laid down in the bible (It's heresy to do so) Don't add and don't take away.

 

[Monna]

But Jesus lay's down many rules, rules

His command was "love one another." His teaching was that the entire law is actually ecompassed by two commands . Love the Lord your God with everything you have and are (in principle), and Love your neighbour as yourself.

Which other "many rules" that he lay down are you thinking of? You do not have to work at bible study, go to church, pray, give tithes, etc. in order to win or keep your salvation. These will normally be natural outcomes of a life with Christ at the centre - but they are not laws that if ignored will jeopardise your salvation.
- the true church is not a building or a location that "you have to go to" - the church is the body of believers. Jesus said "where 2 or 3 are together in my name, I am there with them."
- there are many Christians who cannot read and do not have the bible in their own language. Reading the Bible is good, it helps you find out about God, but knowing God himself is something quite different.
- praying is basically talking, communicating with God. You can't have much of a relationship with another person without communicating. So this is simply the mechanism. You don't think that communication with your parents, your spouse or your children is a matter of the law or regulation...do you?
- If you love someone and see they're in need, perhaps of companionship, help with car repair, or shopping, or support, encouragement, advice... would you refuse? That is also giving. In fact giving money is often a cop-out to avoid getting too committed and giving of yourself. The poor women who gave two pennies, gave more, said Jesus, than the Pharisees who gave hundreds of pounds. But generosity is a pretty natural outcome of friendship and love. And yes it can include money. Some churches teach that you "should" give a tithe, but this follows the Old Covenant, not the New. Paul did raise money among the Christians in Turkey and Greece for famine victims in Palestine, but he did not demand money, nor threaten believers with punishment if they didn't give.
- when you speak of freedom, you are probably missing the point of Christian freedom. Read Paul's letter to the Galatians about Christian freedom, and you will learn that freedom is towards something, not only from something.

Freedom is impossible and meaningless if you are alone in the world. Freedom can only be experienced within a social context. And freedom can only be real if it includes the full respect of other people's freedom as much as your own. You must love your neighbour as yourself - not more and not less. If you love him/her more than yourself, you will find yourself open to his manipulation and your active submission to them; if you love them less than yourself, you are very likely to seek to demean them, exploit them, manipulate or control them - overtly or covertly - thus denying them their freedom. Freedom is not power to control someone else, or impose demands on them, or even do things that negatively impact on others. Only love can make true freedom work. And that love is expressed in voluntary service, without any expectation of reciprical service.

I'm fully aware that church denominations tell their members to do the things you list - and many Christians behave as if they are indeed rules. But they are not laws placed by Jesus on his followers. If you find a local church that demands that you do these things, then look somewhere else. "If the Son makes you free you are free indeed!

 

[Monna]

I really noticed how little Jesus can do when I was struck by illness.

Do you think Jesus is or should be your personal physician?

God is not a genie in a bottle to respond to our smallest whim. He is not a kindly old grandfather that passes out presents at Christmas to his grandchildren. Nor is he Santa Claus watching all the children to see if they have been naughty or nice.

We suffer the same pride that "Adam" had ... we think God should fit into our lives and we come to him with that expectation. God is God. When we come to him, we should be asking how we can fit into his grand scheme of things. He has both a macro plan for this world, (and more) and a micro plan for you as a person, to whom he gave talents and potential. You are gifted beyond measure. Like all of us. And now we are accountable for what we do with our potential - with or without his guidance.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wll you still have freewill in heaven? If so what's stopping anyone from doing the wrong thing there. If perfect Angels can fall while in the presence of the holy one, then are we going to have the choice to rebel taken from us? It might sound nice to dream of a wonderful place where there is no pain and sickness, but it's one you can only imagine.

I'm under the impression that when we are transformed in the future eschatology, and because we are already filled with the Holy Spirit now, as we will be then, we will be changed into a state even more directly linked to Christ, and one that is completely and permanently amiable to God.

I could be wrong, but that is how I think of it.

 

[UnderPar]

His command was "love one another." His teaching was that the entire law is actually ecompassed by two commands . Love the Lord your God with everything you have and are (in principle), and Love your neighbour as yourself.

Which other "many rules" that he lay down are you thinking of? You do not have to work at bible study, go to church, pray, give tithes, etc. in order to win or keep your salvation. These will normally be natural outcomes of a life with Christ at the centre - but they are not laws that if ignored will jeopardise your salvation.
- the true church is not a building or a location that "you have to go to" - the church is the body of believers. Jesus said "where 2 or 3 are together in my name, I am there with them."
- there are many Christians who cannot read and do not have the bible in their own language. Reading the Bible is good, it helps you find out about God, but knowing God himself is something quite different.
- praying is basically talking, communicating with God. You can't have much of a relationship with another person without communicating. So this is simply the mechanism. You don't think that communication with your parents, your spouse or your children is a matter of the law or regulation...do you?
- If you love someone and see they're in need, perhaps of companionship, help with car repair, or shopping, or support, encouragement, advice... would you refuse? That is also giving. In fact giving money is often a cop-out to avoid getting too committed and giving of yourself. The poor women who gave two pennies, gave more, said Jesus, than the Pharisees who gave hundreds of pounds. But generosity is a pretty natural outcome of friendship and love. And yes it can include money. Some churches teach that you "should" give a tithe, but this follows the Old Covenant, not the New. Paul did raise money among the Christians in Turkey and Greece for famine victims in Palestine, but he did not demand money, nor threaten believers with punishment if they didn't give.
- when you speak of freedom, you are probably missing the point of Christian freedom. Read Paul's letter to the Galatians about Christian freedom, and you will learn that freedom is towards something, not only from something.

Freedom is impossible and meaningless if you are alone in the world. Freedom can only be experienced within a social context. And freedom can only be real if it includes the full respect of other people's freedom as much as your own. You must love your neighbour as yourself - not more and not less. If you love him/her more than yourself, you will find yourself open to his manipulation and your active submission to them; if you love them less than yourself, you are very likely to seek to demean them, exploit them, manipulate or control them - overtly or covertly - thus denying them their freedom. Freedom is not power to control someone else, or impose demands on them, or even do things that negatively impact on others. Only love can make true freedom work. And that love is expressed in voluntary service, without any expectation of reciprical service.

I'm fully aware that church denominations tell their members to do the things you list - and many Christians behave as if they are indeed rules. But they are not laws placed by Jesus on his followers. If you find a local church that demands that you do these things, then look somewhere else. "If the Son makes you free you are free indeed!

I said Jesus lays down many rules, not laws. Rules to live by, like not to divorce or not to marry a divorced person. Like love your enemies or keep no thrift. Like turn the other cheek and die for your beliefs.

 

[UnderPar]

Do you think Jesus is or should be your personal physician?

God is not a genie in a bottle to respond to our smallest whim. He is not a kindly old grandfather that passes out presents at Christmas to his grandchildren. Nor is he Santa Claus watching all the children to see if they have been naughty or nice.

We suffer the same pride that "Adam" had ... we think God should fit into our lives and we come to him with that expectation. God is God. When we come to him, we should be asking how we can fit into his grand scheme of things. He has both a macro plan for this world, (and more) and a micro plan for you as a person, to whom he gave talents and potential. You are gifted beyond measure. Like all of us. And now we are accountable for what we do with our potential - with or without his guidance.

But Jesus said that of himself, that those who realize they need a doctor need him. He also made remarks that some doctors make things worse for people, like the woman who was bleeding. That was a real physical condition he fixed straight away.
So yes he did state he was a doctor.

 

[Galatea]

Crying is a essential component to releasing pain, not the cause of it.

Is it true that the bible states that Angels weep? Or am I mistaken.

The verse says no pain and no sorrow. If there is no pain and no sorrow, then there is no need to cry. Not only is there no illness, but people will be perfect and not hurt each other.

I don't know about the angels weeping. They rejoice over every person who gets saved.

Here are some details about the New Jerusalem: it comes down from Heaven. It has a wall around it made of jasper, clear like crystal. It has 12 gates and 12 angels at the gates. There are names on the gates, each gate is named for an Israeli tribe. There are 12 foundations, and a name of an apostle on each foundation.

The city is pure gold like unto clear glass.

The foundations are made of gemstones: jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolyte, beryl, topaz, chrysoprasus, jacinth, amethyst.

The gates are made of pearl and the streets are pure gold as of transparent glass.

There is no temple as the Lord and the Lamb are the temple.

There is no need of sun or moon as God and the Lamb are the light.

The gates are not shut as there is no night.

There is nothing that will enter to defile it or make an abomination but they who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There is a pure river clear as crystal that proceeds out of the throne of God and the Lamb.

In the middle of the main street and on either side of the river is the tree of life which bares 12 fruits. It yields a different fruit every month and the leaves are healing for the nations.

I think if a little kid is running in the woods and slips and scrapes his knee, he just gets a leaf off the tree of life and is instantly healed.

There is no more curse.

We will see His face and His name will be in our foreheads. I have a theory about this. I think it will be a different name for each person. Like whatever Jesus means the most to us, in our particular relationship with Him.

There is no night. No need for candle or sun, for the Lord gives light.

 

[Galatea]

That's just your opinion, correct?

We will definitely recognize people as the disciples recognized Moses and Elisha in their glorified bodies.

My theory is shared by a lot of people about the "age" of our glorified bodies. A lot of people theorize that we will be 33 as that is the age of Jesus' crucifixtion and the prime of life. I guess men MIGHT argue that women are in their prime at a younger age, but 33 seems to be the prime for most people.

David in his grief says his dead baby can not come back, but he can go to his dead baby. God is good. I don't believe He would sever familial ties of people who want to be together. My mom does not want to be with my dad, although my dad might want to be with her. So, I don't think they will be bonded for all eternity.

My grandmother loved me very dearly and I love her very dearly, so I believe God will let us continue that relationship, although we would be the same age.

My theories, of course. Nathaniel Hawthorne said he would not want to go to Heaven if it meant being parted from his precious wife. I believe God let them be together in Heaven.