Selling point

[Monna]

I said Jesus lays down many rules, not laws

What's the difference if it's something you have to follow? If you were to talk about principles on which to base decisions, then I would see the difference.

 

[UnderPar]

What's the difference if it's something you have to follow? If you were to talk about principles on which to base decisions, then I would see the difference.

Well not following laws in the bible lead to death, that's the difference.

 

[Monna]

Well not following laws in the bible lead to death, that's the difference.

You mean that not following rules has no significant consequences? It's OK to break rules but not laws?

 

[UnderPar]

You mean that not following rules has no significant consequences? It's OK to break rules but not laws?

No, I mean physical death. If you think people should still be put to death for the rules Jesus stipulated, then you'd be going against Jesus teachings, but not Yahweh's.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I always get the feeling Christians are selling me a ticket to heaven, but they don't seem to know what heaven is like. Oh they can describe hell though, and that makes me wonder.

So what's heaven like Christians.

This is a problem in some ways some Christians talk about their religion. The fact of the matter is that the Christian Church has never had anything resembling a definitive teaching on Hell; and further the Christian religion isn't particularly interested in "heaven", but rather in talking about, as it were, about what happens after "heaven".

The Christian hope isn't that when we die some ghostly part of us floats up into some sublime aether and strums harps; the Christian hope is that Christ is risen from the dead, having destroyed the power of death, and is bringing redemption, newness, and restoration to the whole of creation. The Christian hope is resurrection, not "heaven".

From the Apostles' Creed:

"We believe in ...
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting."

From the Nicene Creed:

"We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come."

It is resurrection, the future life of the age to come (when God makes all things new, i.e. the renewal and restoration of the earth and all creation) that we look forward to and hope for.

St. Paul the Apostle writes in his letter to the Church in Rome:

"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. ... For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved."

It's not "heaven" that we look forward to, it's the resurrection of the body and the life of the future world, and by this I mean earth, this blue rock, and also the entire of creation, both the Prophet Isaiah and St. John the Divine write of a "new heavens and a new earth" that is the entire cosmos; everything beneath our feet and everything above our heads.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Revelations is a confusing book.

Quite so. But the penultimate vision of the text does provide a helpful place to see what it is Christianity talks about when it refers to the future hope--of the renewal of all creation, and the future life there. The same thing can effectively be seen in several places in the Prophet Isaiah, notably Isaiah 11 and 65. Throughout the writings of the Prophets, in fact, we find the consistent vision of a future where God has made all things new, where justice and peace reign, of when swords have been beaten into plowshares, etc; it is this language that is foundational to Christian eschatological language--of the work of God in Jesus to save the world, to deliver us from sin and death, and bring us to that future world and the life thereof.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[UnderPar]

This is a problem in some ways some Christians talk about their religion. The fact of the matter is that the Christian Church has never had anything resembling a definitive teaching on Hell; and further the Christian religion isn't particularly interested in "heaven", but rather in talking about, as it were, about what happens after "heaven".

The Christian hope isn't that when we die some ghostly part of us floats up into some sublime aether and strums harps; the Christian hope is that Christ is risen from the dead, having destroyed the power of death, and is bringing redemption, newness, and restoration to the whole of creation. The Christian hope is resurrection, not "heaven".

From the Apostles' Creed:

"We believe in ...
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting."

From the Nicene Creed:

"We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come."

It is resurrection, the future life of the age to come (when God makes all things new, i.e. the renewal and restoration of the earth and all creation) that we look forward to and hope for.

St. Paul the Apostle writes in his letter to the Church in Rome:

"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. ... For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved."

It's not "heaven" that we look forward to, it's the resurrection of the body and the life of the future world, and by this I mean earth, this blue rock, and also the entire of creation, both the Prophet Isaiah and St. John the Divine write of a "new heavens and a new earth" that is the entire cosmos; everything beneath our feet and everything above our heads.

-CryptoLutheran

You're making it more confusing for me, how are people going to spontaneously resurrect? It makes more sense for a soul to transform into a new being in another place.

Why can't we leave our bodies and go to a soul world, do we really have to come back to another universe that's morphed into existence by another magical act.

 

[UnderPar]

Quite so. But the penultimate vision of the text does provide a helpful place to see what it is Christianity talks about when it refers to the future hope--of the renewal of all creation, and the future life there. The same thing can effectively be seen in several places in the Prophet Isaiah, notably Isaiah 11 and 65. Throughout the writings of the Prophets, in fact, we find the consistent vision of a future where God has made all things new, where justice and peace reign, of when swords have been beaten into plowshares, etc; it is this language that is foundational to Christian eschatological language--of the work of God in Jesus to save the world, to deliver us from sin and death, and bring us to that future world and the life thereof.

-CryptoLutheran

Being delivered from sin makes some sense, but being delivered from death doesn't. Things don't die, they run out of energy to sustain their physical existence. This is normal, not something due to sin, such as animals die, but they never sinned.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You're making it more confusing for me, how are people going to spontaneously resurrect? It makes more sense for a soul to transform into a new being in another place.

The Christian confession is that Jesus rose from the dead, and that is what we hope for: the resurrection of the dead. The idea that a "soul" goes to another realm to spend eternity with the Divine isn't Christian teaching, it's Gnosticism. Gnosticism, broadly speaking, was a school of religious views which was often, but not always, superficially Christian (in that, many--though not all--Gnostics taught certain things about Jesus or regarded Jesus valuable in some sense, either as a teacher or as a vague, ill-defined spirit, c.f. Docetism, Cerinthianism; also see Mandaeism and Manichaeanism). The perhaps best way to describe Gnosticism as a broad religious movement is that it is an umbrella term for a number of sometimes related but usually quite diverse sects which borrowed extensively from Platonism (the Neo-Platonic philosopher Plotinus really found the Gnostics bothersome because he regarded them as having perverted and twisted the philosophy and teachings of Plato), along with blending (to different degrees) Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian, and (sometimes) Buddhist ideas. Though a core Gnostic teaching was that the material universe is either entirely evil or else mostly evil but basically irrelevant; that the true God could not be tainted by matter and dwelt in a realm of pure spirit, that the creation of the material universe was a cosmic accident resulting from an ignorant demigod identified usually with the Biblical YHVH. And, further, that human beings are beings of pure spirit trapped in prisons of flesh (bodies) and that salvation could only be achieved by coming to knowledge (Greek, gnosis, hence Gnosticism) of their true self and ultimately be delivered from the imprisonment of matter return to the realm of pure spirit.

Why can't we leave our bodies and go to a soul world, do we really have to come back to another universe that's morphed into existence by another magical act.

Not another universe. This one. In the Creeds we confess our belief, "in one God ... the maker of the heavens and the earth, of all that is seen and unseen", we read in the text in Genesis that "in the beginning God made the heavens and the earth" and further down, "And God saw all which He made and called it exceedingly good". Christian teaching insists on the innate and intrinsic goodness of creation, this world, all that is in it, and all which God has made is truly, and wonderfully good and so it's not going to be lost forever, but redeemed, saved. That's the meaning of resurrection.

Salvation without resurrection isn't salvation in the Christian sense.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Being delivered from sin makes some sense, but being delivered from death doesn't. Things don't die, they run out of energy to sustain their physical existence. This is normal, not something due to sin, such as animals die, but they never sinned.

The Christian believes that existence is better than non-existence.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[aiki]

I always get the feeling Christians are selling me a ticket to heaven, but they don't seem to know what heaven is like. Oh they can describe hell though, and that makes me wonder.

So what's heaven like Christians.

It's the dwelling place of God. And what makes heaven truly heavenly is God Himself. Heaven reflects all the holiness, light, purity and perfection of God. But heaven isn't where God's children are going. They will dwell in a new earth, the Bible says, not in God's heavenly domain. For an idea of what sort of habitat a Christian can anticipate on the new earth, you can consider the description of the New Jerusalem that will be established on it.

Revelation 21:10-27
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.
16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.
18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,
20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there).
26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[UnderPar]

It's the dwelling place of God. And what makes heaven truly heavenly is God Himself. Heaven reflects all the holiness, light, purity and perfection of God. But heaven isn't where God's children are going. They will dwell in a new earth, the Bible says, not in God's heavenly domain. For an idea of what sort of habitat a Christian can anticipate on the new earth, you can consider the description of the New Jerusalem that will be established on it.

Revelation 21:10-27
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.
16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.
18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,
20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there).
26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

This doesn't explain what kind of existence this new place will be, or what beings will do there.
So I still know nothing of the next incarnation of the universe.

 

[aiki]

This doesn't explain what kind of existence this new place will be, or what beings will do there.
So I still know nothing of the next incarnation of the universe.

Know nothing? That's a bit hyperbolic. If you read my post, you know a number of things about the afterlife.

What will we do on the new earth? I dunno. Is it really that important to know? Is being with God not enough? Surely, whatever it is like, it is far, far more preferable than the alternative.

 

[UnderPar]

Know nothing? That's a bit hyperbolic. If you read my post, you know a number of things about the afterlife.

What will we do on the new earth? I dunno. Is it really that important to know? Is being with God not enough? Surely, whatever it is like, it is far, far more preferable than the alternative.

No it's not good enough, it doesn't leave a clear enough picture that can't be manipulated. Anyone can say almost anything, doesn't your God want us mortals to know exactly what's to come next?

 

[aiki]

No it's not good enough,

Being with God is not good enough for you? You're a hard person to please!

it doesn't leave a clear enough picture that can't be manipulated.

Actually, a lack of details prevents manipulation. It's quite difficult to manipulate facts that don't exist.

Anyone can say almost anything,

Sure they can. And we can always respond with, "That's nice. The Bible doesn't say that, though, so I'm not going to take what you've asserted about the afterlife as gospel." The lack of detail about the afterlife in Scripture allows us to deny whatever fanciful imaginings people may have about it. We'll all just have to wait and see.

doesn't your God want us mortals to know exactly what's to come next?

Apparently not.

 

[UnderPar]

Being with God is not good enough for you? You're a hard person to please!

Look, all you have is some vague bible verse's that are highly symbolic, what do they even mean. Trust me you don't describe the make up of a whole system this way. Obviously these writers are grasping at straw's.

 

[aiki]

Look, all you have is some vague bible verse's that are highly symbolic, what do they even mean.

Do you mean about heaven in particular? If so, what about the verses makes you think they are "highly symbolic"? Why, exactly, can't they mean what they say?

Trust me you don't describe the make up of a whole system this way.

Describe what system in what way?

Obviously these writers are grasping at straw's.

Based on the statements preceding this one, your comment here is a non sequitur.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm