Self-respect from an Orthodox Perspective?

[SingularityOne]

Knowing that each and every human being is made in the image and likeness of God I think I have a good foundation on how to view self-respect in a Christian framework.

However, when thinking about self-emptying love and self-hatred and the humility of “viewing oneself lower than every created thing”, etc., that the Holy Fathers speak about, I have some difficulty understanding how one can maintain self-respect for themselves and still practice “loving the other as myself”.

I realize that humility is where true “self-esteem” lies. But I’m still trying to figure out how to maintain self-respect on that path.

I found these article’s and they were helpful: Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Esteem versus Self-Respect

Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Hatred

However, I’m still trying to understand this concept from an orthodox perspective as I value others opinions and nature’s above my own in respect and have previously thought that it was Christian to not have self-respect, but this was to my detriment it seems. I only try to compare myself to Christ, not others (this is difficult), but then when I compare myself to Christ only I either go to one side and see the immense distance from His in my lack of love and lose self-respect because of that, and then on the other side, sometimes I fall into delusions and think I am without sin and in a prideful way exalt myself above others in an inferiority complex; neither one being propor self-respect it seems.

Does anyone have any experience or insight into balancing or understanding “self-respect”/self-value in a healthy way in Christ?

 

[HTacianas]

Knowing that each and every human being is made in the image and likeness of God I think I have a good foundation on how to view self-respect in a Christian framework.

However, when thinking about self-emptying love and self-hatred and the humility of “viewing oneself lower than every created thing”, etc., that the Holy Fathers speak about, I have some difficulty understanding how one can maintain self-respect for themselves and still practice “loving the other as myself”.

I realize that humility is where true “self-esteem” lies. But I’m still trying to figure out how to maintain self-respect on that path.

I found these article’s and they were helpful: Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Esteem versus Self-Respect

Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Hatred

However, I’m still trying to understand this concept from an orthodox perspective as I value others opinions and nature’s above my own in respect and have previously thought that it was Christian to not have self-respect, but this was to my detriment it seems. I only try to compare myself to Christ, not others (this is difficult), but then when I compare myself to Christ only I either go to one side and see the immense distance from His in my lack of love and lose self-respect because of that, and then on the other side, sometimes I fall into delusions and think I am without sin and in a prideful way exalt myself above others in an inferiority complex; neither one being propor self-respect it seems.

Does anyone have any experience or insight into balancing or understanding “self-respect”/self-value in a healthy way in Christ?

There exists in Orthodoxy what I think of as an exaggerated sense of humility that leads to just what you've described. I would never argue against that, certainly not to the point of an exaggerated sense of self worth, but I have to take all things in moderation. We certainly are to consider the worth of our fellow man, even to the point of valuing our fellow man above ourselves. But the second great commandment is to "love thy neighbor as thyself". Without at least some sense of self worth, how are we to love our neighbors as we love ourselves? Are we to say we have no self worth therefore we should love our neighbors as if they have no worth either?

I think it's something we have to balance. We should certainly place the interests of others above our own self interests, but then we have to have some self interests to measure it by.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I just want to say that this is a wonderful thing to reflect on, and I remember asking this myself.

However it seems to me (looking back) that my tendency to examine it logically and as a matter of comparison just led to such confusion.

I'm not saying I have the answer. But the question seems to resolve itself over time?

I think they are separate issues. How do we regard others as better than ourselves? Ideally to put their needs before our selfish desires (and even before our needs). To think of them as our spiritual betters, making excuses if need be for any observed shortcomings while not making such excuses for ourselves (our natural tendency is to do the opposite in both cases). At the same time to try to see Christ in every person and recognize the innate human dignity of being created in the image of God - which we must also not denigrate in ourselves. But at the same time to try always to appreciate that any good in us is the result of the grace of God, and not due to any fundamental "goodness" we ourselves possess - rather we should be aware that we are always subject to fail if we should depend on our own strength (to resist temptation or whatever).

It does take some balancing, but I think in some ways some of these issues have become separated for me. It depends exactly what the situation is, how I have (hopefully!) learned to respond in thinking about it.

 

[SingularityOne]

There exists in Orthodoxy what I think of as an exaggerated sense of humility that leads to just what you've described. I would never argue against that, certainly not to the point of an exaggerated sense of self worth, but I have to take all things in moderation. We certainly are to consider the worth of our fellow man, even to the point of valuing our fellow man above ourselves. But the second great commandment is to "love thy neighbor as thyself". Without at least some sense of self worth, how are we to love our neighbors as we love ourselves? Are we to say we have no self worth therefore we should love our neighbors as if they have no worth either?

I think it's something we have to balance. We should certainly place the interests of others above our own self interests, but then we have to have some self interests to measure it by.

Where is this self-worth and self-interest derived from?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think the self respect is to see yourself as the creature created and loved by God. but we should see ourselves as lower than everyone, because through sin we muck ourselves up.

it's a weird paradox that the closer we draw to God, the clearer we see both our created nobility and how much we mess it up.

 

[SingularityOne]

I just want to say that this is a wonderful thing to reflect on, and I remember asking this myself.

However it seems to me (looking back) that my tendency to examine it logically and as a matter of comparison just led to such confusion.

I'm not saying I have the answer. But the question seems to resolve itself over time?

I think they are separate issues. How do we regard others as better than ourselves? Ideally to put their needs before our selfish desires (and even before our needs). To think of them as our spiritual betters, making excuses if need be for any observed shortcomings while not making such excuses for ourselves (our natural tendency is to do the opposite in both cases). At the same time to try to see Christ in every person and recognize the innate human dignity of being created in the image of God - which we must also not denigrate in ourselves. But at the same time to try always to appreciate that any good in us is the result of the grace of God, and not due to any fundamental "goodness" we ourselves possess - rather we should be aware that we are always subject to fail if we should depend on our own strength (to resist temptation or whatever).

It does take some balancing, but I think in some ways some of these issues have become separated for me. It depends exactly what the situation is, how I have (hopefully!) learned to respond in thinking about it.

So it sounds like you are saying that we are all made in the image of God and that is where one should derive this self-worth. On top of that, one should see everyone as one’s “spiritual betters” to protect against pride and vainglory. One should also ascribe all good that is done by themselves to the grace of God within them and not to their own strength (pride and vainglory would happen if one did that).

It sounds like there is a lot of descernment that happens in this process as well. Love, on one side, seems to be about purifying the passions within oneself through God’s Grace, but on the other side, seeing only God in the other (which eradicated judgement of the other).

Still not quite understanding the “putting oneself below all others” and maintaining self-respect though. Unless self-respect is only derived from one’s crucifying their mind to the Mind of the Church and valuing Truth within oneself and hating the falsehood that is is oneself without dispair.

Maybe dispair is what is the issue for my ignorance on this subject.

Am I hearing you correctly here?

 

[SingularityOne]

I think the self respect is to see yourself as the creature created and loved by God. but we should see ourselves as lower than everyone, because through sin we muck ourselves up.

it's a weird paradox that the closer we draw to God, the clearer we see both our created nobility and how much we mess it up.

Sometimes I have a difficult time knowing in my “deep heart” that I am loved by God as His created creature. This is good insight though.

When you say “we should see ourselves lower than everyone because through sin we muck ourselves up”, do you mean that we should only compare ourselves to Christ and not any created being/thing as well as to prevent judging of the other in a negative way? If I am missing something in this understanding, please let me know.

So, our nobility/self-respect/self-esteem is only realized through repentance and putting off the old self and putting on the new self all while only comparing oneself to Christ (if I am hearing you correctly). So if this is the case, I think despair may be my problem here because I am having a hard time believing that I can ever come close to God considering the sin I see in myself and how much I mess up.

Man-pleasing/fear of man also is something that may be present as well considering I have higher respect for the other and a lower respect for myself currently.

 

[HTacianas]

Where is this self-worth and self-interest derived from?

This is from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

"For Christian thought, human dignity is grounded on the biblical and patristic tradition that human beings are created in God’s image."

Human Dignity in Orthodox Theology - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[paul becke]

Knowing that each and every human being is made in the image and likeness of God I think I have a good foundation on how to view self-respect in a Christian framework.

However, when thinking about self-emptying love and self-hatred and the humility of “viewing oneself lower than every created thing”, etc., that the Holy Fathers speak about, I have some difficulty understanding how one can maintain self-respect for themselves and still practice “loving the other as myself”.

I realize that humility is where true “self-esteem” lies. But I’m still trying to figure out how to maintain self-respect on that path.

I found these article’s and they were helpful: Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Esteem versus Self-Respect

Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Hatred

However, I’m still trying to understand this concept from an orthodox perspective as I value others opinions and nature’s above my own in respect and have previously thought that it was Christian to not have self-respect, but this was to my detriment it seems. I only try to compare myself to Christ, not others (this is difficult), but then when I compare myself to Christ only I either go to one side and see the immense distance from His in my lack of love and lose self-respect because of that, and then on the other side, sometimes I fall into delusions and think I am without sin and in a prideful way exalt myself above others in an inferiority complex; neither one being propor self-respect it seems.

Does anyone have any experience or insight into balancing or understanding “self-respect”/self-value in a healthy way in Christ?

'Know thyself'. That's all. If you know yourself, you'll know that we are, each one of us (at least, the children of light), gods by divine adoption, 'other Christs' .... but zilch in ourselves, in our own lower nature. In fact, I find the words, 'Remember, man, that thou art dust, and unto dust, thou shalt return' truly beautiful and comforting, when the priest intones them, as he smears the dust on our foreheads on Ash Wednesday. There are alternative forms of words that can be used, but that is my favourite one. A feeling of what NDE'rs might call, 'a foretaste of our real home (of peace and love, of which we seem to have some mysterious memory).

I know what my opinion of others has been worth during my life-time ; a little better perhaps now, but mostly pathetic, to put it at its most anodyne. So, while, like everybody else, I take comfort in the kind words and gestures of others, and hurt, at the cruel attitude and/or worse of others, knowing myself a little more profoundly these days, I can't take either too seriously.

Or, rather I must not. If, when I caught myself feeling, as footballers say, 'a bit special', I don't check myself straight away, it is a betrayal of those gentle souls, but above all, of myself. Because, I know that God does not have favourites, even including the likes of St Mother Teresa and St Padre Pio (although that, rightly, won't inhibit our tremendous veneration and love for them).

Of course, we might expect shades of meaning in that, such as Jesus' love of his parents and family, but fundamentally his equal love of all of us remains the bedrock truth ; each... one...of ...us, and not least the snotty-nosed little kid picking his nose in Eritrea or some other hell-hole, whose country and people we Europeans and Americans have robbed blind. And the poor souls sleeping rough in our accursed countries - many no doubt too damaged now to be able to accommodate in a small flat of their own.

So, as I once read, normally, i.e. Christ presumably, excepted, 'humility' is not the same as 'modesty', but rather, it is knowledge of our own limitations. And we should bear in mind that He didn't even make us out of dust, but out of nothing.

That almost sounds hilarious to me, so dire are those limitations ; rather like the saying that the just man sins seven times a day. I can almost hear them trying to bawl out to us from heaven, through uncontrollable laughter, 'If only....!!!!!'

I think St Philip Neri put the matter very succinctly. He prayed : 'Oh Lord, do not trust me, for you know I will betray you.' (Perhaps, not verbatim, but close).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sometimes I have a difficult time knowing in my “deep heart” that I am loved by God as His created creature. This is good insight though.

When you say “we should see ourselves lower than everyone because through sin we muck ourselves up”, do you mean that we should only compare ourselves to Christ and not any created being/thing as well as to prevent judging of the other in a negative way? If I am missing something in this understanding, please let me know.

So, our nobility/self-respect/self-esteem is only realized through repentance and putting off the old self and putting on the new self all while only comparing oneself to Christ (if I am hearing you correctly). So if this is the case, I think despair may be my problem here because I am having a hard time believing that I can ever come close to God considering the sin I see in myself and how much I mess up.

Man-pleasing/fear of man also is something that may be present as well considering I have higher respect for the other and a lower respect for myself currently.

yes, you look to Christ. His light shows us all as we really are. as He created us to be, as we sin. the more we repent of how we mess up the image, the more like Christ we become.

 

[nutroll]

I can't remember who called it God esteem, but my wife shared an article with me once that used that term and I thought it was interesting (maybe Fr. Stephen Freeman, my wife likes lots of his stuff). How God sees us is more important than how we see ourselves. We are made in God's image, and this is the most important part of how we should view everyone, including ourselves. Once we do that, we will realize that we are loved, that we have innate value, but that we need work to restore our likeness to God. We can realize how far we are from perfection, even how advanced others are compare to us, but not wallow in self-pity or despair because we are far more valuable than the riches of this world because of the image we bear.

 

[paul becke]

I can't remember who called it God esteem, but my wife shared an article with me once that used that term and I thought it was interesting (maybe Fr. Stephen Freeman, my wife likes lots of his stuff). How God sees us is more important than how we see ourselves. We are made in God's image, and this is the most important part of how we should view everyone, including ourselves. Once we do that, we will realize that we are loved, that we have innate value, but that we need work to restore our likeness to God. We can realize how far we are from perfection, even how advanced others are compare to us, but not wallow in self-pity or despair because we are far more valuable than the riches of this world because of the image we bear.

Beautful and profound truths, if I may say so.

 

[PittBullMom]

I struggled with this . Coming from a background of abuse i had to struggle with self worth socially and spiritually and had find clarity and balance to be healthy and begin to attempt obedience .

We have a relationship with God, and a relationship with the world around us. Then there is the point where the two mingle. When you're "with" God...let's say in prayer, you know He loves you and there is an enormous amount of mercy. When you're with people...just don't judge and know that they have the same relationship with God as part of their creation. So naturally you are no better than they are...but you love them recognising that divine image in them as you are a divine image also. Just be humble and generous...you'll fall below them just in humility by your *actions towards them* ...but we're all equal in the grand scheme of things .

I could be 100% wrong but that's where I'm at now still trying to reconcile the whole topic

 

[SingularityOne]

I struggled with this . Coming from a background of abuse i had to struggle with self worth socially and spiritually and had find clarity and balance to be healthy and begin to attempt obedience .

We have a relationship with God, and a relationship with the world around us. Then there is the point where the two mingle. When you're "with" God...let's say in prayer, you know He loves you and there is an enormous amount of mercy. When you're with people...just don't judge and know that they have the same relationship with God as part of their creation. So naturally you are no better than they are...but you love them recognising that divine image in them as you are a divine image also. Just be humble and generous...you'll fall below them just in humility by your *actions towards them* ...but we're all equal in the grand scheme of things .

I could be 100% wrong but that's where I'm at now still trying to reconcile the whole topic

This all makes sense, however, I am still trying to understand what you mean by “you’ll fall below them just in humility by your *actions towards them*”?

 

[SingularityOne]

This is from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

"For Christian thought, human dignity is grounded on the biblical and patristic tradition that human beings are created in God’s image."

Human Dignity in Orthodox Theology - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

This “image” seems to be our rationality/intellect and free will. Is this how you understand “the image of God” as well?

 

[PittBullMom]

Love your neighbor as yourself .Love .We forget love is not a thought or a feeling. It is a verb .Action .It's what we do...and so how do you treat yourself as a temple of the holy spirit? It's not about self image when you understand what love is

Edited

 

[HTacianas]

This “image” seems to be our rationality/intellect and free will. Is this how you understand “the image of God” as well?

That's my view on it, yes. Of all the animals man is the only one who became a living soul. That soul, nous, spirit, intellect, reason are the image of God.

 

[PittBullMom]

I don't see the image as purely intellectual and freewill oriented . Our task on earth as an extension of God's will, as he created would be more like it

 

[PittBullMom]

From kolistos ware:


Man and man alone exists in two levels at once. Through his spirit, or spiritual intellect, he participates in the noetic realm and is a companion of the angels, through his body and soul he moved and feels and thinks, eats and drinks. Our human nature is thus more complicated than the angels and endowed with richer potentialities. Man is not lower but higher than the angels.

 

[SingularityOne]

yes, you look to Christ. His light shows us all as we really are. as He created us to be, as we sin. the more we repent of how we mess up the image, the more like Christ we become.

After some reflection, how does kenosis and self-emptying love allow for self-respect? Is it a denial of the “old self” tainted by sin and an acquisition of the “new self” in The Holy Spirit and The Commandments of Christ and fashioning one’s ego to The Mind of Christ?

If this is the case, then I should respect Christ above myself. However, shouldn’t I respect myself just as much as the other human since we are all made in the Image and after the Likeness of God; aka, why should I respect another human being above myself? I can only see this as unhealthy. This is mainly the thing I’m struggling with understanding as it seems that Christ says to value and respect the other above oneself, that being what “love” is. If this is incorrect, please let me know.