Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[Gr8Grace]

NOWHERE does Jesus ever say you are saved simply by believing. Sure you can find a single verse that says that but not an entire message from Jesus in any chapter of the Bible.

I did get a good chuckle out of this statement. Annyhooooo.......So there is no truth in a single verse?

Have you ever noticed or been taught about a sentential participle? These are the "Truly,truly" or "Verily,verily" verses. You will find these in the gospel of John.

They are statements that demand our utmost attention and are saying "without a doubt","for certain","indeed." And introduce a very important point of DOCTRINE......They stand alone and doctrine build's around these vital truths. They are said this forceful because the Lord Jesus Christ knows that religion and satan will attack these truth's with all their might and intellect.

Eternal security~~John 5:24~~
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Salvation~~John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Believe in the original means trust and commit to obey [as Lord].


Our Lord, our Master, is the one we obey, whether sin unto death or obedience to Him who is within our heart unto righteousness.


As long as we continue to believe, trust and obey Him, we can indeed be assured of eternal life.

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life,

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36


We must continue to believe, trust and demonstrate that we believe and trust and are committed to Him as our Lord, by continuing to obey what He has taught us: His teaching - His doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God

This is so crystal clear, and must be reconciled into any sound doctrine.


We must continue to obey, remain, abide in Christ's teachings, or we no longer have God.




JLB

Great...well said !

 

[JLB777]

I did get a good chuckle out of this statement. Annyhooooo.......So there is no truth in a single verse?

Okay, lets examine your position.



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said those who believe are saved.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here in the next verse, Jesus illustrates some who believe... for awhile.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Since they did believe, then they are saved when they believe.

However, later on they no longer believed, but fell away.


Are these who believed for a while, then returned to unbelieving, still saved?


If believe = Saved.

Then believe for a while = Saved for a while.


JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

John 6:40
John 6:47
Acts 16:31

By your very own hand, you have right there THREE OF MANY verses that show one must BELIEVE, PRESENT TENSE, in order to be saved.

Acts 16:31 is the Aorist tense. And John 6:40 and 47 are present tense. And If you didn't know that acts 16:31 wasn't present tense. I am sure you don't know why "believe" is in the present tense in the other verse's. But I will show you.

In acts 16:31 Paul is addressing a specific individual face to face. The moment the Jailer believes He will be saved. So the Aorist tense is used.

In the other verses mentioned, they are in the present tense because "believe" is in a purpose clause. This purpose presently stand's for all mankind. They are not describing that the Jailer or Fran or I have to 'presently' believe in order to remain saved.

The purpose of believing on the Son is for salvation. And that purpose presently stands for all that believe.

If an unbeliever reads John 6:47. The truth of it is presently, right now, for him. Now we switch to the aorist tense of Acts 16:31. The moment that unbeliever believes John 6:47 he will be saved.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Okay, lets examine your position.



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said those who believe are saved.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here in the next verse, Jesus illustrates some who believe... for awhile.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Since they did believe, then they are saved when they believe.

However, later on they no longer believed, but fell away.


Are these who believed for a while, then returned to unbelieving, still saved?


If believe = Saved.

Then believe for a while = Saved for a while.


JLB

Believing is fully trusting in Christ. That is THE Faith to be saved.

Many leave it and fall away. They revert back to their own righteousness and just give Jesus lip service and rely on their own 'good' works and their own cleaned up life.

If they ever really did trust Christ at some point, the bible says they are still saved. Even though they fell away from THE Faith.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Acts 16:31 is the Aorist tense. And John 6:40 and 47 are present tense. And If you didn't know that acts 16:31 wasn't present tense. I am sure you don't know why "believe" is in the present tense in the other verse's. But I will show you.

In acts 16:31 Paul is addressing a specific individual face to face. The moment the Jailer believes He will be saved. So the Aorist tense is used.

In the other verses mentioned, they are in the present tense because "believe" is in a purpose clause. This purpose presently stand's for all mankind. They are not describing that the Jailer or Fran or I have to 'presently' believe in order to remain saved.

The purpose of believing on the Son is for salvation. And that purpose presently stands for all that believe.

If an unbeliever reads John 6:47. The truth of it is presently, right now, for him. Now we switch to the aorist tense of Acts 16:31. The moment that unbeliever believes John 6:47 he will be saved.

Those who think they understand the aorist tense but do not speak koine Greek amuse me.

See post no. 1043 for the correct explanation of believe since it's Jesus Himself explaining it.

Do you know what koine means in koine Greek?
My suggestion would be that you stay with that idea.

I like what you stated above which I highlighted.
So if believing in the Son is for salvation...what happens if I Stop believing n Him?

Jesus said if I stop abiding, or believing, in Him, I'll wither and die.
John 15:1-6

Why do some not believe what Jesus clearly said instead of finding solace in one verse?

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

LISTEN to this message of truth and BELIEVE....... and you will be saved. Acts 16:31





Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

“in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,—in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13‬

Heard the word of truth having also believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How does that even matter? If you are cut off from Jesus LIKE a branch is cut off of a vine how does that make any difference? Your still cut of from Jesus.

No, no, no. Jesus was using a metaphor, a figure of speech. What He NEVER said that that any kind of behavior would separate that person from Him.

The branch is TOSSED AWAY AND BURNED.

Why always default to hell? We have "fire" in 1 Cor 3:15 yet the person is SAVED.

Does that sound like salvation to you?

Sounds like discipline to me.

Keep in mind Jesus is saying this to His apostles so there’s no question whether they believe or not. It is written as plain as can be. How can you not see this?

No one has missed this fact.

But what you and your ilk keep missing is the fact that saved people, those given eternal life when they believe, shall never, no, not ever, perish.

So why do you continue to push the idea that a saved person can perish?

Do you have no respect for what Jesus said?

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

LISTEN to this message of truth and BELIEVE....... and you will be saved. Acts 16:31





Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The word listening doesn’t mean just hearing but also adhering to the message.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not true.

I teach that the result of hearing His Voice and following Him, (obeying Him) is to be given, which is to say, inherit eternal life.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-28

What you teach is false. The Bible says those who believe possess eternal life.

Not "will some day MAYBE AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THEIR NOSES CLEAN, His sheep will inherit eternal life".

Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:27-29

Hey, good, let's do talk about Peter.

This is what he said in 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Now, we're all waiting eagerly for your explanation of how someone who has been born OF IMPERISHABLE SEED can or might perish.

Oh, be specific and please, by all means, provide Scripture that actually supports whatever you claim.

shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Of course, one would have to actually CLOSE THEIR EYES AND EARS and ignore the context, where the cause of receiving a 100fold and inheriting eternal life is based on works. So it's obvious that "inheriting eternal life" refers to reward in eternity.

But never mind the facts when they aren't convenient for your side.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

And this is permanent, because of Eph 1:13,14, and 4:30. Also 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

As long as we remain in Christ during our life, we continue to have eternal life in us because we are joined to Him; one spirit with Him.

You've got NO verses that support your empty claim here. Or you would have provided them.

Then on that Day -

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Romans 2:6-7

Those who didn't quit reading at Rom 2:7 also know that everyone is "under sin" per Rom 3:9 and that "all have sinned" per Rom 3:23.

Therefore, NO human being, you included, can receive eternal life by "patient continuance in doing good". No one.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I did get a good chuckle out of this statement. Annyhooooo.......So there is no truth in a single verse?

Have you ever noticed or been taught about a sentential participle? These are the "Truly,truly" or "Verily,verily" verses. You will find these in the gospel of John.

They are statements that demand our utmost attention and are saying "without a doubt","for certain","indeed." And introduce a very important point of DOCTRINE......They stand alone and doctrine build's around these vital truths. They are said this forceful because the Lord Jesus Christ knows that religion and satan will attack these truth's with all their might and intellect.

Eternal security~~John 5:24~~
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Salvation~~John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

I didn’t say there is no truth in a single verse. I said read the chapter to get the full message.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1. Jesus did not teach eternal security.

Stop this deranged babble. John 5:24 and 10:28 are very clearly about eternal security.

He taught that we must ABIDE IN HIM if we want to be secure. As long as we abide in Him we are secure.
John 15:1-6
John 11:25-26
John 5:12

More babbling. He taught that we must abide in Him in order to bear fruit, which is the subject of John 15:1-6.

Re: John 11:25-26, Jesus mentioned "believing" 3 times in v.25-27. There was NOTHING about "abiding to be secure". It was all about believing and then being secure.

Re: John 5:12, it says this: So they asked him, “Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?”

Did you bother to proof read before hitting the reply button? Apparently not. The verse has no context nor relevance to this discussion.

2. Here's why a LIFE OF SIN would result in loss of salvation (which you deny above):

Revelation 20:27
Revelation 3:5
Peter 1:13-17
Hebrews 4:3-13
Ephesians 5:5
and many more...

Oh, yes, much more babbling. None of these verses says that salvation can be lost.

But I do understand that you think they mean that.

But there's a huge difference between what a verse says and what someone thinks it means.

3. We achieve heaven at the end of our life...not now.

Duh. Of course.

4. Yes, we MUST LIVE RIGHT, in order to get to heaven.
Colossians 4:5-6
1 Timothy 6:3-4

Blasphemy. Living "right" goes under the category of works or deeds. Eph 2:9 destroys your theology.

5. If you cease to believe, you cease to be saved:
Hebrews 3:14

More babbling. It says no such thing. And applies to Moses himself, for striking a rock just once.

You never take two verses and pit them against the entire N.T.

Why would ANYONE even try to pit any number of verses against the entire NT? That would be very stupid.

And trying to find any verses that teach loss of salvation does JUST THAT. So quit pitting any verses against the rest of Scripture.

It's the eternal security crowd that has the clearly stated verses, NOT your ilk.

You never take unclear verses and pit them against very clear verses.

Correct. I don't. That would be stupid.

So then, why do you do that?

Hermeneutics.
Exegesis.

2 subjects of which you seem to know nothing.

On top of that, you aren't even reading John 10:28 properly. Even though it's so clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

BNR32FAN said: ↑
1 Corinthians 3:15 is about how our works will be rewarded in heaven and it is the works that are tested by fire not the believer. 1 Corinthians 3:15 isn’t even relevant to this discussion. The branch is tossed away and burned. Tossed away is not saved. 1 Corinthians is talking about believers who have done good works and John 15:1-8 is warning believers that they must do good works or they will be tossed away and burned. Cut off from Jesus and Jesus will not remain in them. How is that the same situation if the believer is still saved in 1 Corinthians 3:15? How can the believer be saved as thru fire if they are cut off from Jesus?

Excellent!!

Right. Excellent FACEPLANT, all right.

He is correct about 1 Cor 3:15 being about rewards. But what he fails to realize is that John 15:1-6 is about the same thing. When a believer is not abiding, they are not in fellowship. Being thrown into a fire to be burned refers to God's judgment on their behavior, just like 1 Cor 3:15.

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

LISTEN to this message of truth and BELIEVE....... and you will be saved. Acts 16:31





Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

This may interest you about Ephesians 1:13.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

heard


G191


Lemma:

ἀκούω


Transliteration:

akoúō


Pronounce:

ak-oo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf

2) to hear b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

3) to hear something a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence b) to get by hearing learn c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher e) to comprehend, to understand

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe: trust, and are committed to obey.

Well, at least you're not afraid to demonstrate your ignorance of the Word of God.

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Scripture is clear, and REFUTES your opinion. We receive the Holy Spirit on the basis of believing in Christ.

And Eph 1:13 says the same thing. And uses the aorist (past) tense for 'believe' to prove that there is no "on-going" requirement.

There is no doubt about this.

I agree. It's clear as a bell. But maybe not so much to those who have had their own "bells" wrung.

However, when we are distracted and wander away from Him is disobedience, we are longer believing and trusting and obeying Him.
JLB

At which point God's discipline (painful) takes over.

But claiming that salvation can be lost is blaspheming the work of Christ and rejecting His promise in John 5:24 and 10:28.

 

[Gr8Grace]

This may interest you about Ephesians 1:13.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

heard


G191


Lemma:

ἀκούω


Transliteration:

akoúō


Pronounce:

ak-oo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf

2) to hear b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

3) to hear something a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence b) to get by hearing learn c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher e) to comprehend, to understand

Yeah. Exactly what I said.

LISTEN to this message of truth and BELIEVE....... and you will be saved. Acts 16:31





Eph 1:13~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

akouó: to hear, listen
Original Word: ἀκούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: akouó
Phonetic Spelling: (ak-oo'-o)
Short Definition: I hear, listen
Definition: I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported.

 

[GodsGrace101]

No, no, no. Jesus was using a metaphor, a figure of speech. What He NEVER said that that any kind of behavior would separate that person from Him.


Why always default to hell? We have "fire" in 1 Cor 3:15 yet the person is SAVED.


Sounds like discipline to me.


No one has missed this fact.

But what you and your ilk keep missing is the fact that saved people, those given eternal life when they believe, shall never, no, not ever, perish.

So why do you continue to push the idea that a saved person can perish?

Do you have no respect for what Jesus said?

I'm just here to tell you that 1 Corinthians 3:15 the FIRE is not referring to saved persons...it refers to those that are ministers for God.

Verse 8 Each worker that LAYS THE FOUNDATION which is Christ, will receive a reward, according to his labor.

Verse 9 For we are God's fellow workers. YOU, the believers, are God's field, God's building.

Verse 12 If any man builds upon the foundation with...
The "man" is the worker for God.

Verse 13 Each man's work will become evident...

Verse 15 Even if the WORK of the MAN is burned up because it was built on wood, hay and straw, the WORK will be burned up but the worker will be saved.

Notice that verses 16 and 17 speak about US being the temple of God and IF ANY MAN destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that man for the temple of God is holy and this is what WE ARE.

1 Corinthians 3 is not speaking about the believer but about those that draw us to God and teach us about Him.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Stop this deranged babble. John 5:24 and 10:28 are very clearly about eternal security.


More babbling. He taught that we must abide in Him in order to bear fruit, which is the subject of John 15:1-6.

Re: John 11:25-26, Jesus mentioned "believing" 3 times in v.25-27. There was NOTHING about "abiding to be secure". It was all about believing and then being secure.

Re: John 5:12, it says this: So they asked him, “Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?”

Did you bother to proof read before hitting the reply button? Apparently not. The verse has no context nor relevance to this discussion.


Oh, yes, much more babbling. None of these verses says that salvation can be lost.

But I do understand that you think they mean that.

But there's a huge difference between what a verse says and what someone thinks it means.


Duh. Of course.


Blasphemy. Living "right" goes under the category of works or deeds. Eph 2:9 destroys your theology.


More babbling. It says no such thing. And applies to Moses himself, for striking a rock just once.


Why would ANYONE even try to pit any number of verses against the entire NT? That would be very stupid.

And trying to find any verses that teach loss of salvation does JUST THAT. So quit pitting any verses against the rest of Scripture.

It's the eternal security crowd that has the clearly stated verses, NOT your ilk.


Correct. I don't. That would be stupid.

So then, why do you do that?


2 subjects of which you seem to know nothing.

On top of that, you aren't even reading John 10:28 properly. Even though it's so clear.

That should have been John 5:14
God forgives a whole lot better than YOU do!

As to the rest...it's becoming repetitive since you don't seem to understand what believe means.

In fact, you really do need to learn about exegesis.

 

[GodsGrace101]

BNR32FAN said: ↑
1 Corinthians 3:15 is about how our works will be rewarded in heaven and it is the works that are tested by fire not the believer. 1 Corinthians 3:15 isn’t even relevant to this discussion. The branch is tossed away and burned. Tossed away is not saved. 1 Corinthians is talking about believers who have done good works and John 15:1-8 is warning believers that they must do good works or they will be tossed away and burned. Cut off from Jesus and Jesus will not remain in them. How is that the same situation if the believer is still saved in 1 Corinthians 3:15? How can the believer be saved as thru fire if they are cut off from Jesus?

Right. Excellent FACEPLANT, all right.

He is correct about 1 Cor 3:15 being about rewards. But what he fails to realize is that John 15:1-6 is about the same thing. When a believer is not abiding, they are not in fellowship. Being thrown into a fire to be burned refers to God's judgment on their behavior, just like 1 Cor 3:15.

Behavior is burned!
Oh. This is a new one.
Is that why there will be WEEPING and GNASHING of teeth?
I believe those reading along can see how wrong you are so maybe I'm not needed here anymore...

 

[Gr8Grace]

I'm just here to tell you that 1 Corinthians 3:15 the FIRE is not referring to saved persons...it refers to those that are ministers for God.

Verse 8 Each worker that LAYS THE FOUNDATION which is Christ, will receive a reward, according to his labor.

Verse 9 For we are God's fellow workers. YOU, the believers, are God's field, God's building.

Verse 12 If any man builds upon the foundation with...
The "man" is the worker for God.

Verse 13 Each man's work will become evident...

Verse 15 Even if the WORK of the MAN is burned up because it was built on wood, hay and straw, the WORK will be burned up but the worker will be saved.

Notice that verses 16 and 17 speak about US being the temple of God and IF ANY MAN destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that man for the temple of God is holy and this is what WE ARE.

1 Corinthians 3 is not speaking about the believer but about those that draw us to God and teach us about Him.

At the end of Paul's life, pretty much everyone deserted him.

9Make every effort to come to me soon; 10for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. 11Only Luke is with me. Pick up Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for service. 12But Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus.13When you come bring the cloak which I left at Troas with Carpus, and the books, especially the parchments.14Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. 15Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching.

16At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them.

1 Cor 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So Paul was teaching that it will actually be him saved as if through fire, because he had so many of his converts desert him and were burned up?

How badly will people rip apart the bible to defend their pet doctrines? Pretty far I guess.