Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[JLB777]

I said this:
"No, you ignored the core of my question. I PROVED that the gift of etenral life is given to those who BELIEVE, not at the end of one's physical life as you erroneously misunderstand Scripture."

You're really not interested in an adult discussion, are you?

I've refuted your abuse of Rom 2:7 and all you do is cut and paste into more posts.

Why haven't you even tried to refute my explanation, which agrees with the rest of Scripture, unlike your view, which doesn't.

Funny. You have refuted scripture.

How does one refute scripture. LOL!!!


This is what Romans 2:7 says.

No interpretation needed.


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7


Likewise Jesus says the same thing.


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

JLB

 

[GodsGrace101]

What you have conveniently missed (ignored) is that your post intended to judge my soul. My motive.

I NEVER judged your soul.
I judge your reasoning power...
I judge how you misunderstand salvation for fellowship...
I judge how you could deny that God demands obedience...

But I NEVER judge where you're going to spend eternity, I HAVE said that you mislead others and you also mislead yourself in proper exegesis...I've also always said that our doctrine does not save us...Jesus does and our willingness to follow Him.

To follow Him is to obey Him.

I'm very happy not to have to judge anybody's soul although I do feel compelled to explain what salvation is.

 

[JLB777]

I understand that by the time this thread has gone this long, you may be exasperated beyond words but that's not how I'm trying to make you feel, I swear.

Your welcome here.

Please share your thoughts with us.

 

[JLB777]

I NEVER judged your soul.
I judge your reasoning power...
I judge how you misunderstand salvation for fellowship...
I judge how you could deny that God demands obedience...

But I NEVER judge where you're going to spend eternity, I HAVE said that you mislead others and you also mislead yourself in proper exegesis...I've also always said that our doctrine does not save us...Jesus does and our willingness to follow Him.

To follow Him is to obey Him.

I'm very happy not to have to judge anybody's soul although I do feel compelled to explain what salvation is.

Well said !

 

[Gr8Grace]

The one verse where Jesus is saying (Matthew 5:29) that we should cut out our eye (OK we don't literally do this) if it causes us to sin, because it is better to enter life maimed than to have our entire body cast into hell. This appears to be saying that we can go to hell for sin. On the other hand Jesus says in another verse (Matthew 5:19) about if we break the least of his commandments, we are least in the kingdom of heaven, which implies that we don't forfeit heaven if we sin, but we just end up being at the bottom of the barrel. So I can't seem to reconcile this contradiction.

Through the lens of the truth of eternal security:
Matt 5:29 is teaching the concept of rebound for the believer. And it is a witnessing tool for us for the unbeliever.

A believer recognizes(cuts out his eye) his sin and names and sites it to God. And we are again back in fellowship.

An unbeliever recognizes(cuts out his eye) that they are a sinner in need of salvation, and trusts in Christ's person and work on the cross for them......saving them from hell.

Matt 5:19. If believers grieve and quench the Spirit and never get back into fellowship with Him(1 John 1:9).........they will be least in His Kingdom.

Then there is another verse in Romans (Romans 11:22) that says that if the Gentiles do not continue in the goodness of the faith, they will be cut off. According to verse 20, these Gentiles were already in the faith, but risked being cut off if they did not continue in that faith.

This is client nation status, not individual salvation. Israel had the duty of spreading the Gospel. God protected and blessed them so His word could advance. Israel stopped advancing His word, so He went to the Gentiles and Israel was cut off from being Gods client nation. He didn't cut off individual salvation.

Also James 5:19 and 20 seem to imply that a brother in Christ can sin and risk his soul of death and that if we turn back our brother from the error of his ways we can save his soul from death. How can that possibly coexist with OSAS?

This is physical death, and severe discipline. If we live outside of Gods plan for us we can expect discipline and possibly very severe discipline at that......physical death.
1 Cor 11:30~~New American Standard Bible
For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse us of unrighteousness. Why would we need to confess our sins for forgiveness if we are forgiven past,, present, and future? That would make no sense.

Fellowship. The moment we believe we are Justified and will not come into judgement(forgiven.)
As believers, when we do sin, we lose fellowship. 1 John 1:9 is Gods mechanism for the believer to get back into fellowship with Him.

1 John 3:15 says that he who hates his brother is a murderer and that no murderer has eternal life in him. We are talking about brother to brother - brothers in Christ already - and it's saying right here that such people do not have eternal life in them if they have hate. It also says that in 1 John 2: 11 that he who hates is brother is in darkness. Darkness always implies of the devil, not of God.

If you look at the NASB or KJV of 1 John 3:15 they have the word 'abiding.'

menó: to stay, abide, remain
Original Word: μένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: menó
Phonetic Spelling: (men'-o)
Short Definition: I remain, abide
Definition: I remain, abide, stay, wait; with acc: I wait for, await.

In this particular verses 'abiding' is in the active voice. A brother who hates his brother is actively not abiding in eternal life. This is where we need to pay attention. It is a choice. These Brothers are not abiding in something they already have......their eternal life. An unbeliever does not have the choice to abide or not abide in eternal life.

This verse is not saying that they don't have eternal life. It is saying they are not abiding in what they DO have......1 John 1:9 for them to start abiding in the sphere of their eternal life again.

Another verse that strikes me is Luke 14:27 - he who does not deny his cross and follow Jesus cannot be his disciple - yet anti-Lordship salvationists say that we do not have to obey Jesus to demonstrate that we're his disciples - - come on, how can that reconcile with this verse?

Being a believer does not = disciple. Being a disciple requires salvation THEN lots of study,doctrine and being saturated in His ways.

We most certainly have to obey to demonstrate that we are His disciples. Just that today, most just demonstrate that they are stuck at start and never even get their salvation figured out, let alone become His disciple.

They may look good to us, and counterfeit a lifestyle.......but their doctrines reveal their true motives.

 

[GodsGrace101]

OK, please explain then, why Christ died for everyone's sins. If eternal life is received by what WE do, as you think Rom 2:7 means, then why did Christ die for us?

I'll bet you have no explanation.

There are different understandings to the atonement.
Some believe in the penal or legal view of the atonement.
This is what you believe. IOW, Jesus took all our sins upon Himself, HE took OUR place in God's wrath.

Another way to see the atonement is the grace atonement.
Jesus died for us to free us from our slavery to satan as God meant in Genesis 3:17. It's God against satan. We couldn't even go to heaven upon death but had to wait till Jesus death on the cross...Luke 16:19-31 We were in Abraham's Bossom till Jesus died on the cross.
Luke 23:45 The temple veil was torn in two, now everyone could enter into the Holy of Holies.

Eternal life is achieved by what we BELIEVE,
but believing also implies obeying.
We cannot have one without the other.

Believing ONLY (mentally) is not enough.
Obeying ONLY (works) is not enough.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Through the lens of the truth of eternal security:
Matt 5:29 is teaching the concept of rebound for the believer. And it is a witnessing tool for us for the unbeliever.

A believer recognizes(cuts out his eye) his sin and names and sites it to God. And we are again back in fellowship.

An unbeliever recognizes(cuts out his eye) that they are a sinner in need of salvation, and trusts in Christ's person and work on the cross for them......saving them from hell.

Matt 5:19. If believers grieve and quench the Spirit and never get back into fellowship with Him(1 John 1:9).........they will be least in His Kingdom.






This is client nation status, not individual salvation. Israel had the duty of spreading the Gospel. God protected and blessed them so His word could advance. Israel stopped advancing His word, so He went to the Gentiles and Israel was cut off from being Gods client nation. He didn't cut off individual salvation.


This is physical death, and severe discipline. If we live outside of Gods plan for us we can expect discipline and possibly very severe discipline at that......physical death.
1 Cor 11:30~~New American Standard Bible
For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.


Fellowship. The moment we believe we are Justified and will not come into judgement(forgiven.)
As believers, when we do sin, we lose fellowship. 1 John 1:9 is Gods mechanism for the believer to get back into fellowship with Him.


If you look at the NASB or KJV of 1 John 3:15 they have the word 'abiding.'

menó: to stay, abide, remain
Original Word: μένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: menó
Phonetic Spelling: (men'-o)
Short Definition: I remain, abide
Definition: I remain, abide, stay, wait; with acc: I wait for, await.

In this particular verses 'abiding' is in the active voice. A brother who hates his brother is actively not abiding in eternal life. This is where we need to pay attention. It is a choice. These Brothers are not abiding in something they already have......their eternal life. An unbeliever does not have the choice to abide or not abide in eternal life.

This verse is not saying that they don't have eternal life. It is saying they are not abiding in what they DO have......1 John 1:9 for them to start abiding in the sphere of their eternal life again.



Being a believer does not = disciple. Being a disciple requires salvation THEN lots of study,doctrine and being saturated in His ways.

We most certainly have to obey to demonstrate that we are His disciples. Just that today, most just demonstrate that they are stuck at start and never even get their salvation figured out, let alone become His disciple.

They may look good to us, and counterfeit a lifestyle.......but their doctrines reveal their true motives.

What a messed up explanation!
And to someone who is having a problem.
This is what happens when we deter from the simple explanation of the New Testament.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I already explained what it means in post #874.
It's you who is deceived because of your works salvation confusion.

Oh for goodness sakes DMM...
As I've said to you before:
There's is NO SUCH CONCEPT in the N.T. as
works salvation.

And 874 is soooo complicated when the N.T. is soooo simple.

One BELIEVES in Jesus................one is saved.
One doe NOT BELIEVE in Jesus.....one is NOT saved.

BELIEVE....present tense.
BELIEVE means to OBEY.

See? It's easy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All of those verses give assurance I just have another problem (you may be going "sigh...here she goes again..." lol but anyway).

No such thing.

how are we to know that the promise of the seal of the Holy Spirit is unconditional? sometimes a promise can be such that "I promise you this if you..."

Because God cannot lie. Heb 6:18 - God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

Both Eph 1:14 and 2 Cor 1:22 say that this seal is a guarantee from God. A guarantee is a promise. Even though, as you point out, humans can and do lie, God cannot.

So when He promises or guarantees something, it will come to pass.

So, the sealing with the Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance until the day of redemption as God's own possession.

And there are no verses that speak of this particular seal being broken.

Although opponents of eternal security will use the argument that seals are meant to be broken, which was true in ancient times when kings sealed documents, only to be opened by certain people.

But God's seal isn't just a bit of wax on some document. It is the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[Gr8Grace]

All of those verses give assurance I just have another problem (you may be going "sigh...here she goes again..." lol but anyway).

how are we to know that the promise of the seal of the Holy Spirit is unconditional? sometimes a promise can be such that "I promise you this if you..."

John 6:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

John 3~~ 33“He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.

2 Cor 1:22~~New American Standard Bible
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

An evil thought is someone believing they can disobey God and STILL be saved.

No, an evil thought is to disagree with the Lord Jesus and NOT believe what He said about recipients of eternal life who shall never, no, not ever, perish. That's what is evil.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"No, you ignored the core of my question. I PROVED that the gift of etenral life is given to those who BELIEVE, not at the end of one's physical life as you erroneously misunderstand Scripture."

Funny. You have refuted scripture.

None of all your claims have been accompanied by ANY evidence at all.

How does one refute scripture. LOL!!!

Wrong. No one can refute Scripture. But many DO disagree and disbelieve Scripture, as you yourself do all tht time.

This is what Romans 2:7 says.

No interpretation needed.

That's what the Pharisees thought, and the current liberal mainline denominations think.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good


eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Then how come you continue to ignore what ELSE Paul wrote in all that context?

That everyone is under sin (Rom 3:9) and all have sinned (Rom 3:23) and that NO ONE will be justified (saved) by keeping the law.

You cherry pick verses and then ignore the context that explains them.

Likewise Jesus says the same thing.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

Please back up just 4 verses to LEARN WHEN one receives (possesses) eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I NEVER judged your soul.
I judge your reasoning power...

Everyone else knows where one's reasoning power comes from; the soul.

I judge how you misunderstand salvation for fellowship...

Again, from the soul.

I judge how you could deny that God demands obedience...

Your dishonesty is beginning to rival the other poster's.

I've NEVER denied that God demands obedience. I have rejected your false teaching that God demands obedience for salvation. But I suspect you don't understand the difference.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are different understandings to the atonement.

Sure. But I will only focus on what the Bible says about it.

Some believe in the penal or legal view of the atonement.
This is what you believe. IOW, Jesus took all our sins upon Himself, HE took OUR place in God's wrath.

I believe what the Bible SAYS.

Another way to see the atonement is the grace atonement.
Jesus died for us to free us from our slavery to satan as God meant in Genesis 3:17. It's God against satan. We couldn't even go to heaven upon death but had to wait till Jesus death on the cross...Luke 16:19-31 We were in Abraham's Bossom till Jesus died on the cross.

Do you really NOT see that both are true. Jesus took our punishment for sin. And that is grace to us.

Eternal life is achieved by what we BELIEVE,

Wrong word. We are GIVEN eternal life because we believe in the Savior.

Believing ONLY (mentally) is not enough.
Obeying ONLY (works) is not enough.

Eph 2:9 says our salvation is "not of works".

And there are no verses that combine faith plus works, as you erroneously believe.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I want to read all 47 pages of this thread, but I just can't and I hope someone understand that lol. But the subject of eternal security is one that is almost causing me to lose faith in the Bible because it seems like there are too many contradictions in it on this subject. I've never had as many problems as I do on this subject. One disclaimer though before I continue - - I actually want OSAS to be true, whereas I can surmise that many/most OSAS proponents don't want it to be true, so at least I'm trying to keep my options open.

From time to time I might come back and give verses that trouble me, but I have a couple right now.

The one verse where Jesus is saying (Matthew 5:29) that we should cut out our eye (OK we don't literally do this) if it causes us to sin, because it is better to enter life maimed than to have our entire body cast into hell. This appears to be saying that we can go to hell for sin. On the other hand Jesus says in another verse (Matthew 5:19) about if we break the least of his commandments, we are least in the kingdom of heaven, which implies that we don't forfeit heaven if we sin, but we just end up being at the bottom of the barrel. So I can't seem to reconcile this contradiction.

Then there is another verse in Romans (Romans 11:22) that says that if the Gentiles do not continue in the goodness of the faith, they will be cut off. According to verse 20, these Gentiles were already in the faith, but risked being cut off if they did not continue in that faith.

Also James 5:19 and 20 seem to imply that a brother in Christ can sin and risk his soul of death and that if we turn back our brother from the error of his ways we can save his soul from death. How can that possibly coexist with OSAS?

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse us of unrighteousness. Why would we need to confess our sins for forgiveness if we are forgiven past,, present, and future? That would make no sense.

1 John 3:15 says that he who hates his brother is a murderer and that no murderer has eternal life in him. We are talking about brother to brother - brothers in Christ already - and it's saying right here that such people do not have eternal life in them if they have hate. It also says that in 1 John 2: 11 that he who hates is brother is in darkness. Darkness always implies of the devil, not of God.

Another verse that strikes me is Luke 14:27 - he who does not deny his cross and follow Jesus cannot be his disciple - yet anti-Lordship salvationists say that we do not have to obey Jesus to demonstrate that we're his disciples - - come on, how can that reconcile with this verse?

Hi Lady Bug,
Did you notice how simple JLB777's explanation is in post 930? That's because the N.T. is actually very simple to understand but some insist on making contradictions.

There's no problem.
If we read Ephesians 2:8 it says that we are saved by God's Grace...His love for us. The instrument by which we are saved is Faith.

So if we have faith, we are saved... If we don't have faith, we are not saved.

What does it mean to have faith? It means to believe in the one in whom we have faith. It means to believe in Jesus. If we believe in someone, it means we obey them. If I believe in my husband, I'll obey him when he tells me the tires are low and to get them checked. If I deny him, it means I DON'T have faith in him or believe him and I may get stuck on the road!

It's that simple.

I would, however, like to go through your verses.
Even though I do not believe that OSAS is biblical, I AM secure in my salvation because I know that I have faith in Jesus, believe in Him, and obey Him (to the best of my ability).

If I sin, I confess that sin and continue in my walk toward God. No problem.

God is love and mercy and justice.

 

[OSAS 101]

Hi Lady Bug,
Did you notice how simple JLB777's explanation is in post 930? That's because the N.T. is actually very simple to understand but some insist on making contradictions.

There's no problem.
If we read Ephesians 2:8 it says that we are saved by God's Grace...His love for us. The instrument by which we are saved is Faith.

So if we have faith, we are saved... If we don't have faith, we are not saved.

What does it mean to have faith? It means to believe in the one in whom we have faith. It means to believe in Jesus. If we believe in someone, it means we obey them. If I believe in my husband, I'll obey him when he tells me the tires are low and to get them checked. If I deny him, it means I DON'T have faith in him or believe him and I may get stuck on the road!

It's that simple.

I would, however, like to go through your verses.
Even though I do not believe that OSAS is biblical, I AM secure in my salvation because I know that I have faith in Jesus, believe in Him, and obey Him (to the best of my ability).

If I sin, I confess that sin and continue in my walk toward God. No problem.

God is love and mercy and justice.

You say you are not OSAS because you are rebellious towards God.
You are saying "no God , your saving grace is not enough, I have to do works myself to make it complete.
That's called egotism.
You think you are so important that you have to prove to God how good you are, and then and only then will he approve of you.
The Bible does not teach that.

 

[Gr8Grace]

What a messed up explanation!
And to someone who is having a problem.
This is what happens when we deter from the simple explanation of the New Testament.

It's amazing to watch Christians claim that, " Trusting in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ" is a "messed up explanation."

 

[GodsGrace101]

I want to read all 47 pages of this thread, but I just can't and I hope someone understand that lol. But the subject of eternal security is one that is almost causing me to lose faith in the Bible because it seems like there are too many contradictions in it on this subject. I've never had as many problems as I do on this subject. One disclaimer though before I continue - - I actually want OSAS to be true, whereas I can surmise that many/most OSAS proponents don't want it to be true, so at least I'm trying to keep my options open.

From time to time I might come back and give verses that trouble me, but I have a couple right now.

The one verse where Jesus is saying (Matthew 5:29) that we should cut out our eye (OK we don't literally do this) if it causes us to sin, because it is better to enter life maimed than to have our entire body cast into hell. This appears to be saying that we can go to hell for sin. On the other hand Jesus says in another verse (Matthew 5:19) about if we break the least of his commandments, we are least in the kingdom of heaven, which implies that we don't forfeit heaven if we sin, but we just end up being at the bottom of the barrel. So I can't seem to reconcile this contradiction.

Then there is another verse in Romans (Romans 11:22) that says that if the Gentiles do not continue in the goodness of the faith, they will be cut off. According to verse 20, these Gentiles were already in the faith, but risked being cut off if they did not continue in that faith.

Also James 5:19 and 20 seem to imply that a brother in Christ can sin and risk his soul of death and that if we turn back our brother from the error of his ways we can save his soul from death. How can that possibly coexist with OSAS?

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse us of unrighteousness. Why would we need to confess our sins for forgiveness if we are forgiven past,, present, and future? That would make no sense.

1 John 3:15 says that he who hates his brother is a murderer and that no murderer has eternal life in him. We are talking about brother to brother - brothers in Christ already - and it's saying right here that such people do not have eternal life in them if they have hate. It also says that in 1 John 2: 11 that he who hates is brother is in darkness. Darkness always implies of the devil, not of God.

Another verse that strikes me is Luke 14:27 - he who does not deny his cross and follow Jesus cannot be his disciple - yet anti-Lordship salvationists say that we do not have to obey Jesus to demonstrate that we're his disciples - - come on, how can that reconcile with this verse?

OK. The verses:

Mathew 5:29 Jesus said:
29"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

Jesus is saying that if there's a particular sin that makes us stumble, it would be better to cut it out than to go to hell. This is clear. Satan does know our weaknesses, however, and will prey on them. Seems we do have our favorite sins....We need to keep trying to do better, we need to confess our sins. John assured us that if we sin, we WILL be forgiven. Jesus was with John for over three years, so John knew what he was writing in both his gospel and his letters.
1 John 1:8-10
We cannot do better than our best.
Jesus does the rest.

Mathew 5:19 Jesus said:
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


This is so clear I wonder how anyone could believe in OSAS.
If you notice, Jesus is talking about the Kingdom of God in chapters 5 through 7. He tells many parables about how the Kingdom of God is --- here on earth.
He is teaching us how to make the Kingdom of God a reality here on earth....how to make it be a better place. Also, the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is used interchangeably... you could check this out.
Jesus is saying that if anyone teaches that they are NOT to obey the commandments, they will be the least in the Kingdom, HERE. They may even be kicked out as in the parable of the wedding feast... If we are to remain IN the Kingdom, we DO have to follow its rules; just like living in any Kingdom.


Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul is talking about the nation of Israel and how God was now going to save the Gentiles too. I believe this was mentioned in Gr8Grace's post. It does, however, say that if we gentiles do not CONTINUE in God's kindness we will be cut off. The N.T. speaks many times of CONTINUING in our faith. IOW, we can be assured of our salvation, if we continue in our faith.

James 5:19-20
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

A sinner is clearly different from one who commits a sin.
John also speaks to this in 1 John 3:4 where he speaks of one who PRACTICES sin. IOW, if one sins, he asks forgiveness and continues...if one is PRACTICING sin, or living a life of sin, then yes, James 5:19-20 is clear in stating that the person must be BROUGHT BACK --- which means that he left...he left his faith and his salvation. He left his belief in Jesus.

What you said about 1 John 1:9 is also correct. This is a modern day concept which never existed in the church. We are forgiven for all sins, past, present and future, but Jesus said to ask forgiveness and we will be forgiven, John reiterated. Even humanly speaking, if we sin against someone, it's nice to ask forgiveness ... even more for the creator of the universe!

I have nothing to add to what you've stated about
1 John 3:15 and
Luke 14:27
Your explanation is perfect!

God has always expected obedience. I fail to understand why this scares some. It's a pleasure to honor and serve the God we love, Jesus who died for us such a horrible death. The least we could do is obey Him.

Blessings

 

[Gr8Grace]

If we read Ephesians 2:8 it says that we are saved by God's Grace...His love for us. The instrument by which we are saved is Faith.

So far so good.

So if we have faith, we are saved... If we don't have faith, we are not saved.

Fell off the cliff. Eph 2:8 say's no such thing.
New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

This has never been refuted and this point MUST be refuted if your theory is correct.

Have been saved is a periphrastic PERFECT. It is a Greek phrase that puts added emphasis to the PERFECT. The perfect tense says all that is needed, but Paul phrased it in a way to add exclamation so as there are NO LOOPHOLES in what he is saying.

We have been saved in the past, those results are ongoing and WILL go on forever.PERIOD. No loopholes. No questions. We have been saved, we are saved and we will be saved forever.

This construct could not be used if your theory is correct. Prove that it was not used.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Everyone else knows where one's reasoning power comes from; the soul.


Again, from the soul.


Your dishonesty is beginning to rival the other poster's.

I've NEVER denied that God demands obedience. I have rejected your false teaching that God demands obedience for salvation. But I suspect you don't understand the difference.

What happens if one doesn't obey God?

John 3:36 JESUS said:
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”