Second-chance Purgatory?

chevyontheriver said:

That prayers for the dead have been an established part of Hebrew and Christian faith, that those prayers imply that there is a thing called purgatory or else they wouldn't make sense. It's not just 'Roman Catholicism' but all of Catholicism, and all of Orthodoxy that support the full canon and support prayers for the dead. What appears to be your view, rejecting purgatory, rejecting books of the Bible, is a newcomer idea that has finally managed 500 years.

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Yours is the only denomination, Catholic or Protestant, that believes in Purgatory, however.

Calvin_1985 said:

You don't know what I believe or my story. You assume a lot of things about me.

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I 'presume' you have rejected purgatory, and prayers for the dead, and the books of the Bible that witnessed to prayers for the dead. Beyond that I have guessed that you might have some generalized Protestantism going on, but then again you haven't offered any detail. Me? I'm an open book. I'm a Catholic, with all that that entails. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you understand what I believe.

Albion said:

Yours is the only denomination, Catholic or Protestant, that believes in Purgatory, however.

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Then there are people like C. S. Lewis who aren't Catholic but believed it. - C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109

chevyontheriver said:

I 'presume' you have rejected purgatory, and prayers for the dead, and the books of the Bible that witnessed to prayers for the dead. Beyond that I have guessed that you might have some generalized Protestantism going on, but then again you haven't offered any detail. Me? I'm an open book. I'm a Catholic, with all that that entails. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you understand what I believe.

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I don't have anything to do with Protestanism, I'm neither Protestant or Catholic, I follow Jesus Christ, that's it. I don't belong to any sort of institutional religion. I do not attend a church building. I do not follow any religious ceremonies or practices from any denomination. Jesus broke me free of that. I've already been through all that religious stuff and it's all the same thing.

chevyontheriver said:

Then there are people like C. S. Lewis who aren't Catholic but believed it. - C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109

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Lewis did not believe in it either.

What he believed in was a "Purgatory" of his own making, not at all what the Roman Church created and has taught for 600 years. It was voluntary (!), in Lewis' mind, and not a place of punishment for sin.

Calvin_1985 said:

The apocrypha is definitely Historical and gives us some insights into Israel during the time of no prophets, but it is not scripture.

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Fully agreed. Just as the Targums and Mishnah give historical understanding of the religious/spiritual understanding of Judea in the first century, but are NOT scripture.

Dave-W said:

Fully agreed. Just as the Targums and Mishnah give historical understanding of the religious/spiritual understanding of Judea in the first century, but are NOT scripture.

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Yep

Calvin_1985 said:

You don't know what I believe or my story. You assume a lot of things about me.

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We can only know by your words. So...we go by that.

Albion said:

Yours is the only denomination, Catholic or Protestant, that believes in Purgatory, however.

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As if that matters...But actually, the Orthodox do believe in purification before entering heaven. So we have the same concept.

Calvin_1985 said:

I don't have anything to do with Protestanism, I'm neither Protestant or Catholic, I follow Jesus Christ, that's it. I don't belong to any sort of institutional religion. I do not attend a church building. I do not follow any religious ceremonies or practices from any denomination. Jesus broke me free of that. I've already been through all that religious stuff and it's all the same thing.

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So you don't believe in baptism? Marriage? Well, I guess that makes you another denomination among thousands...

Follow Jesus. He is the way, Trith and Life. He will lead you into all truth. We need not anything else but Him.

Calvin_1985 said:

Follow Jesus. He is the way, Trith and Life. He will lead you into all truth. We need not anything else but Him.

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I agree with you. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to lead the apostles, their successors, and their successors and representatives, into all Truth. That's why we believe the Church.

Sheep scattered, running to and fro
A powerful heart and mind disconnect feeding upon it's own devices
Stayed in Babylon, enduring the plagues looking for a kingdom to come, yet no steps taken forward for open sight. Blinded by the flood of denial of what is brought to historical witness and pride overtakes. Disconnected and taken by black and white renderings converted by their own transforming truth into a lie leading others to a bondage and thrown into a ditch of chains that uplift oneself as the carrier if the gift given. Vicious circle of performance to add to what Father has given. To and fro Jasper and Blue they never know, because Golden is the color they uplift.

Seas with a depth eternally vast, only to be discovered by few. Innocence returned. Eyes of blue waters sourced in the fountain. Surface stability is what remains amongst a wilderness of towers with confounded speech bound in chains of their own confusion. Many layers to be peeled, but only a little pain will most accept. Taken by desolation, rebellion they succumb, some open, many with derision and ignorant sight taken in by the flame that draws the fly. Gleaning light from the distance of the midst, pierces through many of occasion, only for them to fold and hide. They cry Devil, they cry deception, only blinded by what the Light has pierced. No ears to hear, nothing recompensed. The path of Light, the journey of Love, a Savior conformed to that which comes from within, transforming the light into their own made in the image of their shadow. The Spirit is my guide or so they say, but splintering is the effect seen behind this Veil. Thorns and thistles show themselves, but blinded by the shell they see a mirage. The ship is calling, but they stay their pits, calling for heads, prayers of malice cloaked in three shades of gems. A prayer of tempting The One, to place a bushel upon his forehead, directing to wandering stars once drained before. Barriers surround betwixt the baby and it's lifeline. Need for bread they seek, given cakes of air they feast. An outstretched candlestick crafted in Love, purged of what is dead I've become, to reach forth and pull the mule from it's trap, by bands of Light gained by Grace alone, open handed and nobody to grasp. The Light shines atop the Seven eyes, to show the path back to the first love, but greater resistance is met by those in need of shade. Manifest as if turned from the inside out...exposed. The thorn in my side, keeps me humble, Keeps me seeking, wisdom seen as three needed the cure. Mixtures of confusion remain. I seek not to reclaim nor reform. I speak not of my own, but of he who sent me, Lamb of Life, the Word of Love, expression of Fathers Grace. Witness bears in the rooms of my being of what Mercy conceived. Consuming fire throughout my bowels, lit by His hand. Wisdom, Love, and Purity to be one. He shakes the mountains and comes in glory, the fervent heat, breaking this firmament, he reveals his Glory from eternity to eternity. Nothing ends with the One. And everything begins with the Son. The Same power, Resurrected Messiah, resides in those who bear the seed, nothing dividing, who reflect the marks of Fathers promise. Blood stained Ghost, taste of wine, unleavened manna he bought me and forever I reign. The Son and Father are one, just as the son and Father have become as I've walked through His door of invite. Translation of Spirit, that nobody will see, unless they come as a child seeking that which is He.

Calvin_1985 said:

Neither of those have anything to do with a purgatory. I've read them. There is nothing in them that even remotely resembles what is implied by the Roman Catholic Doctrine.

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What is or isn't Catholic teaching isn't really your call to make. The Catholic Church bases her teachings concerning Purgatory in part on 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. She has the liberty to do that. And as it happens, that passage describes the Catholic understanding of Purgatory. That much is an objective matter of fact.

If you disagree, I guess I'm sorry to hear that. But you're wrong, that's what the Church believes Purgatory to be and that passage is in part where the teaching comes from.

Calvin_1985 said:

I don't have anything to do with Protestanism, I'm neither Protestant or Catholic, I follow Jesus Christ, that's it. I don't belong to any sort of institutional religion. I do not attend a church building. I do not follow any religious ceremonies or practices from any denomination. Jesus broke me free of that. I've already been through all that religious stuff and it's all the same thing.

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Lovely. But the fact remains that you fit the dictionary definition of the word "Protestant". So even if you have no use for the label, the label still applies.

thecolorsblend said:

Lovely. But the fact remains that you fit the dictionary definition of the word "Protestant". So even if you have no use for the label, the label still applies.

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You don't know anything about me, how do you put me into a category without zero information?
Jesus Christ is the way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Saviour, Lord and example. I know Him and He knows me. I follow him. Not a priest(s), not a pastor, group, religion, congregation, or anyone or anything of the sort. I only point the Lost to Salvation in Jesus Christ and for those that are His, to eat of His words and to drink of His life. It is he that will guide us into all truth. All truth in scripture, all truth in life, and all truth in Spirit. You can apply whatever label you want to me and others, but I follow Jesus, it's that simple. He is here and He speaks to this day just as he did to his apostles. It is the Spirit I AM that abode in Jesus that testifies of Jesus now. It's predicated on one primary thing, Faith. When True Faith, The Faith of Abraham, is within, all things that Father desires for us to(even true worship) will flow out of that true Faith, especially love for Him and neighbors, not proselytizing of people into a religious full of hoops to jump through in order to gain justification before God. This faith is not religion, it's a relationship with The Father. [Staff edit].

Jonaitis said:

First, purgatory doesn't exist, it has no support from Scripture.

Second, sinners deserve to be punished in hell for their sin, regardless if they have access to the gospel or not. We will have to give an account of our lives, with every word and thought, on judgment day. Simply saying you didn't know about Jesus will not excuse you.

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Even if Purgatory is not specifically mentioned in Scripture, it is still possible that it exists. However, one would think that if it exists, that it would probably have been given some priority in Scripture, unless there was a reason why such was not done.

Basil the Great said:

Even if Purgatory is not specifically mentioned in Scripture, it is still possible that it exists. However, one would think that if it exists, that it would probably have been given some priority in Scripture, unless there was a reason why such was not done.

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Not everything is of equal weight. If there is a purgatory, most of us who are saved will go there and then go to heaven when we are ready. If there is no purgatory then God will have figured out some other way to purify the saved so they are ready for heaven. In the end, the same result. So not all that important in the end. Salvation is far bigger a deal and rightly so.

Calvin_1985 said:

Sheep scattered, running to and fro
A powerful heart and mind disconnect feeding upon it's own devices
Stayed in Babylon, enduring the plagues looking for a kingdom to come, yet no steps taken forward for open sight. Blinded by the flood of denial of what is brought to historical witness and pride overtakes. Disconnected and taken by black and white renderings converted by their own transforming truth into a lie leading others to a bondage and thrown into a ditch of chains that uplift oneself as the carrier if the gift given. Vicious circle of performance to add to what Father has given. To and fro Jasper and Blue they never know, because Golden is the color they uplift.

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Sorry.