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Root of Jesse

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Well, in a way it is. My point was that that's all there is to it--no Purgatory, no indulgences, no Treasury of Merit, no need for a hellish purging of sins that have already been forgiven, etc.--all of which were attached to the concept of salvation by the previous questioner.
But what you're saying "you're either saved or your not" is it in a nutshell. Purgatory is, if you're saved, you may still not be pure enough for heaven.
When I was asked what my church's view of the matter is, there is not much that should be said except that we believe that if you are saved...you are saved. That's it.


Stop making wild guesses be part of your inquiry would be my advice.
Prove otherwise, or demonstrate otherwise. From what I know of you, my statement stands. And if I need your advice, I'll ask.
It was taught by the Catholic Church for over 500 years as the belief of the Catholic Church, however.
Taught as a practice. tradition, not Tradition.
Only when it became so unacceptable in the minds of the rank and file members of the church in more recent times, such that the higher-ups concluded that it had to be junked, the explanation was that it was never official...but that is not how it was presented to the membership for over a half-millennium.
Nope, we understand God to be merciful, and thus no Limbo. The Church pondered it, and found it to be wrong.
 
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Albion

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This is nothing different from the Catholic view.
Well, in a way it is. My point was that that's all there is to it--no Purgatory, no indulgences, no Treasury of Merit, no need for a hellish purging of sins that have already been forgiven, etc., all of which were attached to the concept by the previous poster.
 
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Albion

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Limbo
Taught as a practice. tradition, not Tradition.

You are deep into wishful thinking now. No, it was not a practice. How do you "practice" Limbo or being in Limbo? LOL

But Limbo was proclaimed by a church council, so it is definitely not a tradition, regardless of whatever else it might be called.

But what you're saying "you're either saved or your not" is it in a nutshell. Purgatory is, if you're saved, you may still not be pure enough for heaven..
So that speculation is what is leading you wrong.

Having identified it, are we settled on the differences between the churches now?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your second sentence is false.
During the first four centuries of the Christian era, the existence of purgatory was commonly taught in the Church, as seen in its universal practice of offering prayers and sacrifices for the dead.



The most ancient liturgies illustrate the custom in such prayers as the following: "Let us pray for our brothers who have fallen asleep in Christ, that the God of the highest charity towards men, who has summoned the soul of the deceased, may forgive him all his sin and, rendered well-disposed and friendly towards him, may call him to the assembly of the living" (Apostolic Constitutions, 8:41).



Equally ancient are the inscriptions found in the catacombs, which provide numerous examples of how the faithful offered prayers for their departed relatives and friends. Thus we read from engravings going back to the second century such invocations as: "Would that God might refresh your spirit . . . Ursula, may you be received by Christ . . . Victoria, may your spirit be at rest in good . . . Kalemir, may God grant peace to your spirit and that of your sister, Hildare . . . Timothy, may the eternal life be yours in Christ."



Writers before Augustine explicitly teach that souls stained with temporal punishment due to sins are purified after death. St. Cyprian (died 258) taught that penitents who die before the Sacrament of Penance must perform the remainder of any atonement required in the other world, while martyrdom counts as full satisfaction (Epistola 55, 20). St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) described the sacred rites of the Liturgy with the comment, "Then we pray also for the dead, our holy fathers, believing that this will be a great help for the souls of those for whom the prayer is offered" (Catechesis, 32).



St. Augustine not only presumed the existence of purgatory as a matter of divine faith, but also testified to this belief from the Scriptures. Among other statements, he said, "some believers will pass through a kind of purgatorial fire. In proportion as they loved the goods that perish with more of less devotion, they shall be more of less quickly delivered from the flames." He further declared that the deceased are "benefited by the piety of their living friends, who offer the Sacrifice of the Mediator, or give alms to the Church on their behalf. But these services are of help only to those lives had earned such merit that suffrages of this could assist them. For there is a way of life that is neither so good as to dispense with these services after death, nor so bad that after death they are of not benefit" (Enchiridion 69, 110).



Augustine's most beautiful tribute to purgatory occurs in the book of his Confessions, where he describes the death of his mother Monica and recalls her final request, "Lay this body anywhere at all. The care of it must not trouble you. This only I ask of you, that you remember me at the altar of the Lord wherever you are." Augustine complied with his mother's desire and admits that he did not weep "even in those prayers that were poured forth to Thee while the sacrifice of our redemption was offered for her" (Confessions, IX, 11).



After the Patristic period, the Church did not significantly develop the doctrine of purgatory for many centuries. Then in the twelfth century, Pope Innocent IV (1243-54), building upon the writings of the Fathers, expounded in detail upon the doctrine. In context, Innocent was concerned with reuniting the Greek Church which had been in schism since the Photian scandal in the ninth century. He appealed to the Greek's belief in a state of purgation as a point of departure from which to bring them into communion with Rome. In a doctrinal letter to the apostolic delegate in Greece, he discussed the common belief:





It is said that the Greeks themselves unhesitatingly believe and maintain that the souls of those who do not perform a penance which they have received, or the souls of those who die free from mortal sins but with even the slightest venial sins, are purified after death and can be helped by the prayers of the Church.


Since the Greeks say that their Doctors have not given them a definite and proper name for the place of such purification, We, following the tradition and authority of the holy Fathers, call that place purgatory; and it is our will that the Greeks use that name in the future.



For sins are truly purified by that temporal fire — not grievous or capital sins which have not first been remitted by penance, but small and slight sins which remain a burden after death, if they have not been pardoned during life (DB, 456).

According to the catechism my second statement is correct. And I quote...

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The Orthodox Church does not believe in the purgatory for the remission of sins and has no doctrine on purgatory however they do believe it is possible that a purification of our sinful nature could be necessary before entering heaven.

As for prayers for the dead please read post #177

The church has always believed that prayers for the dead can be beneficial.
 
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Shimokita

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But Limbo was proclaimed by a church council, so it is definitely not a tradition, regardless of whatever else it might be called.
1) The fact that a Church council proclaims something does not negate it as tradition. 2) What Catholic Church council proclaimed the Limbo of the Infants? Please specify the name, year, and paragraph.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well, in a way it is. My point was that that's all there is to it--no Purgatory, no indulgences, no Treasury of Merit, no need for a hellish purging of sins that have already been forgiven, etc., all of which were attached to the concept by the previous poster.

Actually indulgences were offered in the early church for acts of kindness or charity. Usually it was things like helping someone work their field or build a home. Then much later it began to become abused in exchange for tithes.
 
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thecolorsblend

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You don't know anything about me, how do you put me into a category without zero information?
Jesus Christ is the way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Saviour, Lord and example. I know Him and He knows me. I follow him. Not a priest(s), not a pastor, group, religion, congregation, or anyone or anything of the sort. I only point the Lost to Salvation in Jesus Christ and for those that are His, to eat of His words and to drink of His life. It is he that will guide us into all truth. All truth in scripture, all truth in life, and all truth in Spirit. You can apply whatever label you want to me and others, but I follow Jesus, it's that simple. He is here and He speaks to this day just as he did to his apostles. It is the Spirit I AM that abode in Jesus that testifies of Jesus now. It's predicated on one primary thing, Faith. When True Faith, The Faith of Abraham, is within, all things that Father desires for us to(even true worship) will flow out of that true Faith, especially love for Him and neighbors, not proselytizing of people into a religious full of hoops to jump through in order to gain justification before God. This faith is not religion, it's a relationship with The Father. [Staff edit].
If Christianity isn't a religion then the word "religion" has no meaning.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Even if Purgatory is not specifically mentioned in Scripture, it is still possible that it exists. However, one would think that if it exists, that it would probably have been given some priority in Scripture, unless there was a reason why such was not done.
The description of Purgatory in Sacred Scripture is roundly rejected by a lot of people. So yeah...
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, in a way it is. My point was that that's all there is to it--no Purgatory, no indulgences, no Treasury of Merit, no need for a hellish purging of sins that have already been forgiven, etc., all of which were attached to the concept by the previous poster.
And yet, the Lord said differently, as did St. PAul.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Limbo


You are deep into wishful thinking now. No, it was not a practice. How do you "practice" Limbo or being in Limbo? LOL

But Limbo was proclaimed by a church council, so it is definitely not a tradition, regardless of whatever else it might be called.


So that speculation is what is leading you wrong.

Having identified it, are we settled on the differences between the churches now?
Do Unbaptized Babies Go To Limbo? - About Catholics

It wasn't proclaimed at any council, and it was not part of Sacred Tradition, which is my point.
 
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Root of Jesse

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According to the catechism my second statement is correct. And I quote...

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The Orthodox Church does not believe in the purgatory for the remission of sins and has no doctrine on purgatory however they do believe it is possible that a purification of our sinful nature could be necessary before entering heaven.

As for prayers for the dead please read post #177

The church has always believed that prayers for the dead can be beneficial.
Your problem is that, just because it's not declared as canon doesn't mean it's not the law of the Church. Take the table of contents of the Bible. It was declared at a council-Trent, but was held as declared by the Council of Rome, which wasn't an ecumenical council. Just because something isn't declared doesn't mean it is not believed. And as I showed, Purgatory was believed long before Florence.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Does it really matter?
It does to Merriam-Webster. And apparently it does to you too as well since you wrote 229 words about "faith" as opposed to "religion". I went ahead and bolded the relevant words for your convenience.

You don't know anything about me, how do you put me into a category without zero information?
Jesus Christ is the way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Saviour, Lord and example. I know Him and He knows me. I follow him. Not a priest(s), not a pastor, group, religion, congregation, or anyone or anything of the sort. I only point the Lost to Salvation in Jesus Christ and for those that are His, to eat of His words and to drink of His life. It is he that will guide us into all truth. All truth in scripture, all truth in life, and all truth in Spirit. You can apply whatever label you want to me and others, but I follow Jesus, it's that simple. He is here and He speaks to this day just as he did to his apostles. It is the Spirit I AM that abode in Jesus that testifies of Jesus now. It's predicated on one primary thing, Faith. When True Faith, The Faith of Abraham, is within, all things that Father desires for us to(even true worship) will flow out of that true Faith, especially love for Him and neighbors, not proselytizing of people into a religious full of hoops to jump through in order to gain justification before God. This Faith is not religion, it's a relationship with The Father. [Staff edit].
 
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Root of Jesse

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Actually indulgences were offered in the early church for acts of kindness or charity. Usually it was things like helping someone work their field or build a home. Then much later it began to become abused in exchange for tithes.
Well, sort of. Indulgences never could be sold. That's where the abuse took place. An enterprising bishop or monk, I forget which, was selling indulgences to Germans for the building of St. Peters Basilica, and he was telling them this would lessen their time in purgatory, which was false. He could have been a used car salesman. :)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your problem is that, just because it's not declared as canon doesn't mean it's not the law of the Church. Take the table of contents of the Bible. It was declared at a council-Trent, but was held as declared by the Council of Rome, which wasn't an ecumenical council. Just because something isn't declared doesn't mean it is not believed. And as I showed, Purgatory was believed long before Florence.

I didn’t say that a few didn’t believe in a place of purification after death. I said it didn’t become a doctrine until 1439AD. Which you replied was false. A few believers in the church do not reflect the teachings of the church. Augustine admitted that he made many errors in his early writings. Which is why doctrines are decided by ecumenical council which Rome was not a part of in 1439AD when they made this decision. The Orthodox Church, which is the ecumenical council, rejected both the councils of Florence and Trent.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well, sort of. Indulgences never could be sold. That's where the abuse took place. An enterprising bishop or monk, I forget which, was selling indulgences to Germans for the building of St. Peters Basilica, and he was telling them this would lessen their time in purgatory, which was false. He could have been a used car salesman. :)

Yes I’ve heard a few stories like that but I don’t usually refer to them because I’m not certain if they are true or not.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If Christianity isn't a religion then the word "religion" has no meaning.

I’ve often heard this but never quite understood why some people say Christianity is not a religion. I’m not sure what they mean by this. :scratch:
 
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BNR32FAN

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Lovely. But the fact remains that you fit the dictionary definition of the word "Protestant". So even if you have no use for the label, the label still applies.

Technically the Roman Church has been Protestant since 1054AD.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="morgannicole555, post: 73832238, member: 418613"]Hello, I've never been on one of these forums before but have to hear some other opinions on this. I was raised to believe that if you do not accept Jesus into your heart, you go to hell... period. Well the other night this topic somehow came up with my boyfriend and he does not feel the same way (he grew up Christian as well). He believes that people across the world who did not grow up in a Christian society and who were raised by their families to believe a different religion, will not automatically go to hell, but instead go to some sort of purgatory where God will give them a second chance. He doesn't believe that God would condemn someone to hell for believing in the religion their parents taught them to. I'm not sure of anything like this being referenced in the Bible and am feeling very conflicted now. Thoughts?[/QUOTE
==========================
Why did you think you needed arguments on this ?

From what you posted here, you were brought up right and learned the truth.
Your boyfriend wasn't.
(well, you said "he "FEELS" not the same way --- feelings are NOT a guide nor reliable) ....
The Bible shows clearly no second chance, btw. No argument there at all.
 
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Calvin_1985

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It does to Merriam-Webster. And apparently it does to you too as well since you wrote 229 words about "faith" as opposed to "religion". I went ahead and bolded the relevant words for your convenience.
Faith and religion are not the same thing.
 
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