Futurist Only Seal 7 separated to chapter 8, in Revelation

Jamdoc

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Yes, they're in heaven, Jesus is on Earth, the heavens open up, and the saints follow to meet with Him on Earth.

Based on what?

It's been popular imagery for a long time to depict Jesus riding down from heaven on a white horse, usually with wings.

I don't know anyone who thinks cloud means white horse. btw, it is not clouds in Acts 1, but cloud.

People who interpret Revelation 19 as the second coming kind of forget the "coming on the clouds" thing, and just go with the white horse.
as for the cloud/clouds thing, it's cloud in that one instance, but clouds in every other reference. It is not often that people identify a single cloud, usually they're considered multiple. Either way, coming on a cloud/clouds, not a white flying horse.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
It is talking about at the time of the end in general. The rapture/resurrection event. And then after the millenium, the Great White Throne Judgement.
No, it means at the time of the end, in general, because some to shame and everlasting contempt happens at the Great White Throne Judgment.
The resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is expressly for the martyred Great Tribulation saints.
Differently, the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11 takes place before the beginning of the Day of Lord like a thief in the night. Same message as Jesus said in Matthew 24:42-51. And Luke 21:34-36.

The resurrection in Revelation is called the first.
Unless you mean "church age saints" are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years... it'd include all the dead in Christ.

and frankly, "tribulation saints" is an unbiblical fabrication, pretribbers made up in order to try and handwave away the very clear scripture that shows the saints being made war against.

It's a way to deflect suffering away from their privileged, pampered, 1st world, western special snowflake selves, and onto "those other people", on top of not knowing what Tribulation even means.

There is 0 clear scripture that says a bunch of people will come to faith after the rapture. In fact, Jesus teaches something profoundly different in the parable of the 10 virgins. The virgins who come late are not told 'come back later" they're outright dismissed.

Amos 8 has a famine for hearing the words of the Lord after the sun goes dark in the clear day (6th seal reference). That is, everyone who would preach the Word of God is gone.

Amos 8
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
6th seal reference, the darkening of the sun in the clear day
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
Compare with Zechariah 12, and Matthew 24:29-30

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

It's like salvation itself is cut off aside from Israel.
Israel's blindness doesn't get removed in Romans 11 until the fullness of the gentiles come in.
Is that meaning that there is no more salvation for gentiles? I'd say possibly.

Not taught returns to Armageddon (a plain north of Jerusalem, below the mount of Meggido), but to the Mt. of Olives from where Jesus left this world and will be returning to and stand upon splitting it in half. Armageddon as a general term has been made into a catch phrase meaning the final conclusive battle of all times.

All of Israel will be packed with the armies of the world, including the Kidron valley, the valley of Jehoshaphat - where God judges.

Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Okay well, somewhere you're going to have to squeeze in Edom, to have Jesus coming back from it alone.
 
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shepherdsword

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Revelation 19:9 only says; Happy are those who are invited to the Wedding banquet.....
It will take place after Jesus has Returned.

Absolutely not. "who are invited" or "kekeleemenoi" is in the perfect tense. This means it is taking place the same time it is being spoken. AFTER that we see Jesus' return.

GREEK PERFECT

TENSE: PERFECT TENSE:

Definition: "A condition resulting from an anterior occurrence...the result of the occurrence is seen to be `present' or simultaneous with the time of speaking." (Fanning, Verbal Aspect, pp 290-91)
(from Wheeler's Greek Syntax Notes, Copyright © 1985-2002 by Rev. Dale M. Wheeler, Ph.D. All rights reserved. Used by Permission.)
 
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keras

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Absolutely not. "who are invited" or "kekeleemenoi" is in the perfect tense. This means it is taking place the same time it is being spoken. AFTER that we see Jesus' return.

GREEK PERFECT

TENSE: PERFECT TENSE:

Definition: "A condition resulting from an anterior occurrence...the result of the occurrence is seen to be `present' or simultaneous with the time of speaking." (Fanning, Verbal Aspect, pp 290-91)
(from Wheeler's Greek Syntax Notes, Copyright © 1985-2002 by Rev. Dale M. Wheeler, Ph.D. All rights reserved. Used by Permission.)
I don't see how the Wedding feast of the Lamb can take place before Jesus Returns.
Unless you believe the Christians are in heaven, in which case you need to show when and why the Lord would remove us from the earth.
The 'rapture to heaven' theory is refuted by Jesus Himself; John 3:13 and many othe verses that say such a thing is impossible.
 
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shepherdsword

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I don't see how the Wedding feast of the Lamb can take place before Jesus Returns.
Unless you believe the Christians are in heaven, in which case you need to show when and why the Lord would remove us from the earth.
The 'rapture to heaven' theory is refuted by Jesus Himself; John 3:13 and many othe verses that say such a thing is impossible.

As I said, this is the only passage that pre-tribbers have that can make their case. I don't understand either
but we must all adhere to what the word plainly states.
 
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Timtofly

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There is no end to Adam's flesh, which sin now dwells, until after the millennium and the Great White Throne judgment.

Prior to the beginning of the millennium, Armageddon is the location where the kings of the earth assemble their armies to make war on Jesus.

At His Return, the Second Coming, in both Matthew 24 :30b and Revelation 19,
Revelation 19:19 are those armies.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

In Revelation 19:21, Jesus destroys those armies.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

_______________________________________________________

In Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the same account. After the destruction of the armies, the beast, the false prophet, and Satan imprisoned - in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus will then bring all of the house of Israel, Jacob's descendants, back to the land of Israel - in their Adam's flesh bodies.

To live long life's in the messianic age. When men will live to over 100 years old, Isaiah 65:20 And he wolf will lay down with the lamb will feed together, Isaiah 65.25.
You cannot live in a dead corruptible body. The whole point is to live in a permanent incorruptible physical body. A resurrection is out of this dead body, not a resurrection to death and sin.

Adam's flesh cannot enter Paradise. Adam's flesh cannot enter the Millennium either. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding that is it on Adam's 6,000 years of sin and death. Time is up, over, and expired. That is why an expiration mark is placed on those who follow Satan. They are rotten to the core, and past harvest time. Just rotting away in Satan's abomination of desolation. To escape that abomination is literally chopping one's head off. Thus a physical resurrection for those who have their head chopped off. But not to Adam's dead rotten flesh. To God's permanent incorruptible physical body, that is free from the second death, never to die again.
 
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keras

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"who are invited" or "kekeleemenoi" is in the perfect tense. This means it is taking place the same time it is being spoken. AFTER that we see Jesus' return.
The invitations are posted, John 3:16, we all receive one as the faithful Christian peoples of God.
The feast will take place when Bride Groom arrives.
 
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Douggg

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You cannot live in a dead corruptible body. The whole point is to live in a permanent incorruptible physical body. A resurrection is out of this dead body, not a resurrection to death and sin.

Adam's flesh cannot enter Paradise. Adam's flesh cannot enter the Millennium either. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding that is it on Adam's 6,000 years of sin and death. Time is up, over, and expired. That is why an expiration mark is placed on those who follow Satan. They are rotten to the core, and past harvest time. Just rotting away in Satan's abomination of desolation. To escape that abomination is literally chopping one's head off. Thus a physical resurrection for those who have their head chopped off. But not to Adam's dead rotten flesh. To God's permanent incorruptible physical body, that is free from the second death, never to die again.
Tim, when will Isaiah 65:20 be fulfilled, when living to 100 years old will be considered the norm before dying? Since they are dying, they are obviously in Adam's flesh.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
 
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Timtofly

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Tim, when will Isaiah 65:20 be fulfilled, when living to 100 years old will be considered the norm before dying? Since they are dying, they are obviously in Adam's flesh.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
A dead sinner is not alive, but dead.

After 100 years, one is no longer a child. It is like saying after 21, one is fully mature as an adult.

After becoming fully mature, one will no longer be prone to disobey. But being disobedient is not normal, it means one is born cursed. The point is once one disobeys they are killed, because disobedience is not tolerated.

The verse does not mean children are sinners and then grow out of sin. If a 5 year old disobeys, they are considered cursed and killed. Albeit it would not make sense to write it that way. That may even seem cruel. But the burden of obedience is placed on children until the age of 100, then disobedience is no longer an issue. Disobedience under the Law of Moses for children was death by stoning. Did they actually stone their children? During the Millennium it will not be up to the parents. Jesus is God and knows all things. God knew exactly when Adam disobeyed.

The Law was a type and shadow, and could never be totally adhered to. Paul said it was just a teacher showing us how bad sin was. But the Law during the Millennium will not cater to and show us our sinful nature, because no one will have a sinful nature. If no one wants to acknowledge that, what more can I say?

Many think Daniel 9:24 was fully realized in the first century. When God takes sin away, it will be recognizable, not just a theory.

It is not just sin though. It is decay. Do we even understand that nature will not break down and decay? That may not have even been a concern in western science 1,000 years ago, but since the microscope and the understanding of the breakdown of the elements, we even tell time by decay and half lives. Can we even fathom life without such change? Does no one understand that at the 6th Seal life on earth as we know it will start to drastically change, even more so than the Flood. By the end of the 7th Trumpet the earth will be back to the way it was before Adam disobeyed God.

Could it be since there is no decay, that childhood will last longer? I don't know. There could still be a new generation every 20 years, and how children are born could be completely different. Perhaps, 100 is just a probationary period, and humans will be physically mature faster? How things change and grow will be totally different. See this verse Amos 9:13:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt."

Growth will happen so quick, a harvest will be gathered at the same time one is sowing the seed. Even humans having a time to mature will not be as we understand it, even though Isaiah 65 makes it sound like it takes longer than normal. There will be no old age, because all will live, and never die, but after 100, one will be out of one's probationary period, like what we call puberty now. But one can still leave home at 20, and start their own family. Or even sooner. Because the point is to fill the earth. Not with just plants and produce. Who is going to eat all that harvest that simply happens "over night"? The point is that decay will be gone, so that effects the growth of everything. Earth will be 100% efficient. There will not be any waste.

I think that is what Genesis 2 is stating, not a separate creation account, or even a different order of creation.
 
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Douggg

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A dead sinner is not alive, but dead.

After 100 years, one is no longer a child. It is like saying after 21, one is fully mature as an adult.

After becoming fully mature, one will no longer be prone to disobey. But being disobedient is not normal, it means one is born cursed. The point is once one disobeys they are killed, because disobedience is not tolerated.

The verse does not mean children are sinners and then grow out of sin. If a 5 year old disobeys, they are considered cursed and killed. Albeit it would not make sense to write it that way. That may even seem cruel. But the burden of obedience is placed on children until the age of 100, then disobedience is no longer an issue. Disobedience under the Law of Moses for children was death by stoning. Did they actually stone their children? During the Millennium it will not be up to the parents. Jesus is God and knows all things. God knew exactly when Adam disobeyed.

The Law was a type and shadow, and could never be totally adhered to. Paul said it was just a teacher showing us how bad sin was. But the Law during the Millennium will not cater to and show us our sinful nature, because no one will have a sinful nature. If no one wants to acknowledge that, what more can I say?

Many think Daniel 9:24 was fully realized in the first century. When God takes sin away, it will be recognizable, not just a theory.

It is not just sin though. It is decay. Do we even understand that nature will not break down and decay? That may not have even been a concern in western science 1,000 years ago, but since the microscope and the understanding of the breakdown of the elements, we even tell time by decay and half lives. Can we even fathom life without such change? Does no one understand that at the 6th Seal life on earth as we know it will start to drastically change, even more so than the Flood. By the end of the 7th Trumpet the earth will be back to the way it was before Adam disobeyed God.

Could it be since there is no decay, that childhood will last longer? I don't know. There could still be a new generation every 20 years, and how children are born could be completely different. Perhaps, 100 is just a probationary period, and humans will be physically mature faster? How things change and grow will be totally different. See this verse Amos 9:13:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt."

Growth will happen so quick, a harvest will be gathered at the same time one is sowing the seed. Even humans having a time to mature will not be as we understand it, even though Isaiah 65 makes it sound like it takes longer than normal. There will be no old age, because all will live, and never die, but after 100, one will be out of one's probationary period, like what we call puberty now. But one can still leave home at 20, and start their own family. Or even sooner. Because the point is to fill the earth. Not with just plants and produce. Who is going to eat all that harvest that simply happens "over night"? The point is that decay will be gone, so that effects the growth of everything. Earth will be 100% efficient. There will not be any waste.

I think that is what Genesis 2 is stating, not a separate creation account, or even a different order of creation.
Tim, the point is that Adam's flesh does not end until the millennium is over.

During the millennium, people will still die, but at a much older age, one hundred years old will be the norm.

Beginning with Adam, the successive generation lived shorter and shorter lives.

After the flood, life expectancy leveled off. King David in Psalms 90:10, expressed the average life expectancy to be 70 years, and 80 years if a person is blessed with strength of health.
 
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Timtofly

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Tim, the point is that Adam's flesh does not end until the millennium is over.

During the millennium, people will still die, but at a much older age, one hundred years old will be the norm.

Beginning with Adam, the successive generation lived shorter and shorter lives.

After the flood, life expectancy leveled off. King David in Psalms 90:10, expressed the average life expectancy to be 70 years, and 80 years if a person is blessed with strength of health.
Not progressively. Methuselah lived the longest. And only because the Flood happened, or he may have lived longer. If he was a faith believer he went to Abraham's bosom. He did not get on the ark.

Yes, Adam's flesh ends. There can be no sin period due to this fact:

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Not just the Cross. The 70th week has not ended yet. It ends at the 7th Trumpet. Certainly the 7th Trumpet is not going to sound for 1,000 years, and then stop when Satan is loosed.

This total removal of sin, did not happen in the first century. It will happen before the Millennium starts.

Many claim these promises only pertain to Israel. No!

Israel the woman in Revelation 12 was the means, Daniel's people, whereby, a Messiah entered the world. But the Atonement of the Cross covered Adam and all his descendants, not just Abraham's or Jacob's.

Daniel 9 is not just Israel receiving justice, and the end of sin. These promises covered all of creation. Sin and iniquity came from Adam's disobedience, not because Israel failed to keep the Law of Moses.

The fulness of the Gentiles does not cover the end of sin and iniquity. That is why the 70th week did not end in the first century.

But to extend the fulness of the Gentiles into the Millennium is just as wrong as Amil who claim the Millennium is the here and now. You may as well be post millennial, but with Jesus reigning until all sin is gone.

The fact that Jesus as King at the Second Coming completes the 70th week, means that the Millennium is sin free, and disobedience returns earth to how God intended it before Adam disobeyed.

There will not be a tree of knowledge of good and evil that people under 100 will be forbidden to eat, and the instant they eat, they immediately die. That was Adam's scenario.

Breaking the law will be abnormal. An individual who does will be considered cursed. They will be immediately removed from life and placed in Death, their name removed from the Lamb's book of life. They will literally have no more life. But will wait in Death until the GWT and then cast into the LOF. There is no Atonement for disobedience during the Millennium. Therefore there cannot be sin, nor a sin nature or all would be dead, like we are now, in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The Millennium will not be the same as the here and now.

If you claim it is the same as the here and now, why not just claim the here and now is the Millennium like Amil do? If they get one point right, it is that sin does not continue after the Second Coming. Unfortunately, that is all they have going for them.

Sin and punishment cannot go on past 6,000 years either. Creation was not just here for Adam's sin and suffering. The disciples were so empowered and hopeful that the end was in their days, but here we are 1900 years later. Even they were told that it was not for them to know. Yet their claims have been the point of preterist alleged conviction it was all over in the first century. There is somewhat of a contradiction in what they claimed and what they were not given to know.

So Isaiah is not saying life expectancy is extended to 100. Isaiah is not saying childhood is extended to 100 either, at least not maturity wise. He is simply stating no one dies. But death is given to those who disobeys, a point that cannot happen in heaven. So now the kingdom of heaven is on earth, no one can die or even disobey on earth. Yet there is a law, and it can be broken, thus death is still waiting for those who break the law. Children are more prone to be disobedient in testing authority than adults. Even now, if a child is not under control by 4 or 5 years of age, they will more than likely have issues their whole adult life. That seems to be the point Isaiah is making. 100 is the new 4 and 5 year point. If still alive at 100, they will be fine at 700 to 900 years of age.

But death will be eradicated across creation. No weeds nor wild plants sprouting up that need to die. What is planted will suffice for the entire 1,000 years. New life will spread across the earth as time goes on. Nations will be settled from the firstfruits of the final harvest. The church will continue on in Paradise without procreation. The church has been in Paradise since the Cross, reigning and serving God night and day. That is not going to change at the Second Coming, but will continue until Paradise comes down as the New Jerusalem.

Many here, even pre-mill want to put off a resurrection until after the Millennium. Many want to put off the completion of Adam's transgression until after the millennium, because Death is the last enemy. The victory over death happened at the Cross. That was the age to come, but that age was the change from Abraham's bosom in sheol to Paradise Adam's lost homestead. There was no change for those in Adam's dead flesh on earth. What changed was the dead in Christ, now leave death at physical death and immediately enter eternal life, and afforded a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The dead in Christ have been rising first since Stephen was martyred. Not just martyred souls, but every soul entering Paradise leaves death for eternal life. There is no longer a necessary resurrection. In fact Jesus claimed humans are gathered from both Paradise and earth. Not the grave and earth. Paul said the dead in Christ rise first, because they are gathered from Paradise, not because they are gathered from a dead state.

Paul uses a metaphor about plants, but humans are not literal plants, nor have to be planted in the ground literally, to spring back to life as a different body. Adam's flesh literally returns to dust, never to come back, once a redeemed human enters Paradise in a God given permanent incorruptible physical body.

So at the Second Coming, the dynamic on earth changes once more, with the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 and the end of Adam's punishment of 6 Days, 6,000 years. Those firstfruits of the final harvest, and those beheaded are removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and also given permanent incorruptible physical bodies, just like Adam had before he disobeyed and physically died. The Second Coming is a restoration of all things. That is why Isaiah 65 is the creation of a new earth. The old earth of sin was purified by fire. If Satan gets 42 months, it is even more desolate and abominable by the end of those 42 months.

This is not earth fleeing away and no longer found. After the Millennium, there will be a totally different reality. If death is eradicated, why would death be introduced in the NHNE in Revelation 21? According to Revelation 21, there is not even a sun or moon. Perhaps in the NHNE there will be a universe as we are taught. There is currently not a universe as we are led to believe. There has never been a universe necessary. Yet Satan has seemed to feed us this artificial reality that will dissolve at the Second Coming. Some of this is controversial, but a point to consider that what we think we know, compared to the actual Word of God does not always match each other.
 
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Douggg

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Yes, Adam's flesh ends. There can be no sin period due to this fact:

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
Tim, that Daniel 9:24 does not mean an end of sins in the way you are interpreting it. Instead, it will the end of sins that the Jews do in transgressing the Mt. Sinai covenant.

During the millennium there will still be sin, evidenced by at the end of the millennium, Satan will deceive the nations again to try and destroy Jerusalem.
 
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keras

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I mean, Isaiah 65 outright says its the new heavens and new earth.
Yes, Isaiah 65:17 does say that God will create a new heaven and earth.
Then: Isaiah 65:18-25 prophesies how it will be before the NHNE. During the thousand year reign of Jesus, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 19:16
Proved by how there will be no Death in the NHNE. Revelation 21:4

Jesus Return to reign, not to destroy!
 
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Timtofly

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Tim, that Daniel 9:24 does not mean an end of sins in the way you are interpreting it. Instead, it will the end of sins that the Jews do in transgressing the Mt. Sinai covenant.

During the millennium there will still be sin, evidenced by at the end of the millennium, Satan will deceive the nations again to try and destroy Jerusalem.
There was no sin before Satan deceived Eve. Many at the end of the Millennium will be deceived like Eve was, and will die because they listened to Satan like Eve did. Sin is not necessary to deceive people, in fact sinners are already deceived. Those humans at the end of Millennium are alive because they are without sin, otherwise they would be dead already.

There is not a single inclination that Jesus as Messiah and King is dealing with the Law or Sinai Covenant. The whole NT is about Jesus as the New Covenant that was already in place from the foundation of the world. The Atonement Covenant is the only Covenant that can take away sin. The OT is just a Covenant of bondage like Agar, who was not the point of the promised son. The Law does not remove sin. The Law provided means to cover sin up.

The Cross was the physical act, just like the Second Coming will be a physical act. They both will literally happen and to the earth. Both enacted change, but change in the proper order:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end."

The OT redeemed were given life at the Cross. The Second Coming is the end of death in a natural physical sense. At the end of the Millennium those people will face their own choice of life or death. Some will be deceived thinking death for a cause it better than God's eternal life.

I think Adam disobeyed God 30 years after a Day of the Lord. That resulted in 6,000 years of the reign of sin and death. That was recorded in Genesis 2-3. The Cross was 4 days later, with 2 days left, the last days. There is one more Day of the Lord, without sin on the earth. That will fulfill the promises of Daniel 9:24.
 
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Douggg

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There was no sin before Satan deceived Eve.
Tim, the difference is that Adam and Eve (indirectly from Adam's rib) were in their made from dust bodies - not their eternal incorruptible bodies - before they sinned. After their disobedience and sin enter the world, thereafter everyone descended from Adam's flesh commits sins.

So them in the nations who Satan deceives at the end of the millennium will be in their made from dust bodies inherited from Adam - which you are calling "Adam's flesh".

There will be here on earth at the same time, resurrected and raptured saints who will be in their eternal incorruptible bodies - who Satan cannot deceive. Who will make up the camp of the saints.
 
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Timtofly

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Tim, the difference is that Adam and Eve (indirectly from Adam's rib) were in their made from dust bodies - not their eternal incorruptible bodies - before they sinned. After their disobedience and sin enter the world, thereafter everyone descended from Adam's flesh commits sins.

So them in the nations who Satan deceives at the end of the millennium will be in their made from dust bodies inherited from Adam - which you are calling "Adam's flesh".

There will be here on earth at the same time, resurrected and raptured saints who will be in their eternal incorruptible bodies - who Satan cannot deceive. Who will make up the camp of the saints.
Adam physically died and lost God's permanent incorruptible physical body. It does not matter if dust is here or molecules floating in the firmament. Dust is still part of creation.

Adam's disobedience resulted in both physical and spiritual death. So no, Adam did not have the same physical body, he was created with.

God makes a permanent incorruptible physical body for everyone, out of created matter.

The point is we are genetically a copy of Adam, not a separate creation in the womb. That is the difference.

It is Adam's dead corruptible flesh that cannot enter Paradise. Not that a physical body cannot enter Paradise.

At the Cross God provided all the redeemed in Abraham's bosom with a permanent incorruptible physical body so they could enter Paradise. They ascended Sunday morning when Jesus ascended.

Enoch, Elijah, and probably Moses could ascend to Paradise. Two of them are the 2 Olive Trees as OT witnesses. Enoch and Elijah are more than likely the same person. Satan never got the body of Moses. Satan never got the body of Enoch, because he was never found. His body was translated without leaving dust behind.

At the rapture our dead bodies will either be left behind or turned into dust without a trace. I agree the body we are in will not leave this earth, and cannot enter Paradise. But those in Paradise already have their God given physical bodies.
 
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Douggg

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At the rapture our dead bodies will either be left behind or turned into dust without a trace. I agree the body we are in will not leave this earth, and cannot enter Paradise. But those in Paradise already have their God given physical bodies.
Tim, people's bodies are not dead until the soul leaves it - to go heaven if a person is saved. Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father. That's where them to be taken in rapture/resurrection will go - in their incorruptible eternal redeemed bodies.

Adam never has an incorruptible eternal body - because Adam never had the Holy Spirit living in his soul. Christians have the Holy Spirit living in their soul which is why Christians are a new creation in Christ - our souls have been redeemed.

While ours souls have been redeemed, we groan in our current bodies as Paul says, waiting and looking forward to the redemption of our bodies.

Our salvation will be complete when our inherited from Adam bodies are redeemed - i.e. exchanged for incorruptible eternal bodies. To take place during the rapture/resurrection of believers in Jesus. Isn't it exciting looking forward to that day?

1Coriinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul in 1Corinthians15:35-50, compared our natural bodies inherited from Adam as like a seed. From the seed comes a living plant that began as a seed planted in the earth. Sown in corruption - raised in incorruption
 
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Timtofly

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Tim, people's bodies are not dead until the soul leaves it - to go heaven if a person is saved. Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father. That's where them to be taken in rapture/resurrection will go - in their incorruptible eternal redeemed bodies.

Adam never has an incorruptible eternal body - because Adam never had the Holy Spirit living in his soul. Christians have the Holy Spirit living in their soul which is why Christians are a new creation in Christ - our souls have been redeemed.

While ours souls have been redeemed, we groan in our current bodies as Paul says, waiting and looking forward to the redemption of our bodies.

Our salvation will be complete when our inherited from Adam bodies are redeemed - i.e. exchanged for incorruptible eternal bodies. To take place during the rapture/resurrection of believers in Jesus. Isn't it exciting looking forward to that day?

1Coriinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul in 1Corinthians15:35-50, compared our natural bodies inherited from Adam as like a seed. From the seed comes a living plant that began as a seed planted in the earth. Sown in corruption - raised in incorruption
Adam physically died, and was given a dead corruptible body of death.

As sons of God, a resurrection body gives us back Adam's original created permanent incorruptible physical body. The one God provides, not Adam's genetic images.

Since the Cross, the soul either resides in one body or the other. The soul no longer waits in Abraham's bosom. The soul is not about the body. Neither is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given to help us remain obedient to God. Adam did not need the Holy Spirit to nag him constantly not to eat. Since the disobedience was a physical act to do something. Not a life trying not to sin. Adam did not go around every day, and ask himself if he was going to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. He probably never really thought about it at all.
 
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Douggg

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Adam physically died, and was given a dead corruptible body of death.
When Adam and Eve sinned, sin entered the world bringing about death.

Tim, your words - given a corruptible body of death - is confusing. Adam was not given a different body than that he was created with - i.e. from the dust of the earth.

After Adam and Eve sinned, God said (paraphrased) from dust you were made and to dust you shall return.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
 
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