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SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the or objections to EGW


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SabbathBlessings

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you left the church as an apostate and have just recently come back, this according to you. you don't read EGW, and you don't know what you are talking about. you are defending the SDA history out of duty. you think this is what you are suppose to do. That is why you don't have anything to offer. you don't know SDA theology, you don't know SDA history, you don't Read Ellen White. so why are you here. you are trying to put a pretty face on the ugly part of Adventism.
Why do you keep with the false narrative you think you know about me, when I already stated it’s not correct. We have never met, we are literally strangers on the internet and to make assumptions as if they are facts, when you have no idea makes me question other things stated as “facts”.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Why do you keep with the false narrative you think you know about me, when I already stated it’s not correct. We have never met, we are literally strangers on the internet and to make assumptions as if they are facts, when you have no idea makes me question your other ‘facts’.
hey you came here and posted stuff, no one put a gun to you head and forced you into this. you stayed out of this so far, then you implied I was not telling the truth. you broght that on yourself. now you accuse me of making false statemtent about you. what false statement did I make about you. you said so yourself that you were a pastors daughter and that you did not read EGW. Now you have also stated that you left the SDA church for a period of time. Which of those things are false? All I know is what you have said and what you have done. if you don't want to discuss then don't, but call or imply that I am lying. if you want to correct the record feel free to do so. Maybe I should start a thread called "Meet you Adventist Neighbor: Sabbath Blessing" where we can find out more about you so as to not be inaccurate. we wouldn't want anybody to be confused would we. I've written a whole bio on me today after being lied about by another member, but no one seem to even noticed that. so how about we try that with you???
 
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SabbathBlessings

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hey you came here and posted stuff, no one put a gun to you head and forced you into this. you stayed out of this so far, then you implied I was not telling the truth. you broght that on yourself. now you accuse me of making false statemtent about you. what false statement did I make about you. you said so yourself that you were a pastors daughter and that you did not read EGW. Now you have also stated that you left the SDA church for a period of time. Which of those things are false? All I know is what you have said and what you have done. if you don't want to discuss then don't, but call or imply that I am lying. if you want to correct the record feel free to do so.
You are quoting out of context, and when corrected, you continue and have literally made things up that are the farthest from the truth, things you would have no idea about.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Non-SDA's do you see the legnths that the Ellen White'rs will go to defend her. Her supporter will imply you are a deciever, a liar, they will ignore reasonable objections and twist and confuse and obscure information in order to get you to believe. They will chastise, castigate and minipulate to punish and shame you in order to get rid of you if you object. If you want the bible only with an consultation by EGW then you will be punished and banished. DO YOU SEE THAT???
 
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HARK!

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MOD HAT ON

350015_0f282d4b538245f7d5ab333c90dad940.jpeg


THIS THREAD IS NOW REOPENED.

PLEASE COMPLY WITH THE SITEWIDE RULES, AND STATEMENT OF PURPOSE FOR THIS FORUM.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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tall73

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I cannot go be part of the SDA church with out getting attacked or shunned. I was recently attaked by of bunch of EGW'er claiming I was resisting prophecy, demanding obediance to EGW for fellowship. the last SDA church I was at was the church I grew up in and when some of the members found out I had issue with Elllen they would not talk to me. so removal is the only real option.

Of course, she has informed them you are headed to perdition:

Testimonies Volume 4, pg 211,

It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.

-----

Despite her statement above, I have known a number of ministers who left the church over doctrine who love the Scriptures and minister in other denominations.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Of course, she has informed them you are headed to perdition:

Testimonies Volume 4, pg 211,

It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.

-----

Despite her statement above, I have known a number of ministers who left the church over doctrine who love the Scriptures and minister in other denominations.
There is no scripture that says we can be in rebellion to God and be saved. Hebrews 10:26-30 makes this case pretty clear along with the very words of Jesus Matthew 7:21-23 and one of the last scriptures of the Bible Rev 22:14-15 we have free will to test any theory we want through
 
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tall73

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There is no scripture that says we can be in rebellion to God and be saved. Hebrews 10:26-30 makes this case pretty clear along with the very words of Jesus Matthew 7:21-23 and one of the last scriptures of the Bible Rev 22:14-15 we have free will to test any theory we want through

So noted that you think those who reject Ellen White are in rebellion against God.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So noted that you think those who reject Ellen White are in rebellion against God.
You’re funny that way, I was not quoting EGW, I was quoting scripture but I see what you did, nice little twist of context. No one teaches if you reject EGW one will not be saved, but rejecting God and being in rebellion to Him and His commandments, if we trust His Words we should believe the consequences.
 
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tall73

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Interesting! Do you mean that up until recently, a person could think that White wasn't a prophet, and still be, say, an SDA pastor?

Regarding being a member, or a pastor if you do not believe in Ellen White:

The answer is a bit complicated. The short answer is that it is possible to be a member of the church and not accept Ellen White. But it largely depends on the local church and minister.

The longer answer:

The Seventh-day Adventist church publishes the Seventh-day Adventist Church manual and includes what are meant to be procedures for the churches. Included in this are two variations of Baptismal vows, a traditional and an alternate. Both include acceptance of the fundamental beliefs of the SDA church. Not every church will use these, but many still will.

You can see the vows in their entirety on page 51:


The baptismal vows do not mention Ellen White. So that would sound like you don't need to accept her. However, they do indicate acceptance of the fundamental beliefs.

11. Do you know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as
taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Do you purpose, by the grace
of God, to fulfill His will by ordering your life in harmony with these
principles?

2. Do you accept the teachings of the Bible as expressed in the
Statement of Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and
do you pledge by God’s grace to live your life in harmony with these
teachings?

The Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental beliefs include Ellen White:

18 The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

So in many churches acceptance of Ellen White is required to become a member. However, some churches do not practice this. And some dispense with the vows and the process outlined in the manual.

Ellen White for her part did not feel that acceptance of the visions should be a test of fellowship for those who were otherwise sincere, and had little knowledge of the visions, and who did not resist them actively:

From Testimonies for the Church Volume 1:

In the last vision given at Battle Creek I was shown that an unwise course was taken at ----- in regard to the visions at the time of the organization of the church there. There were some in ----- who were God’s children, and yet doubted the visions. Others had no opposition, yet dared not take a decided stand in regard to them. Some were skeptical, and they had sufficient cause to make them so. The false visions and fanatical exercises, and the wretched fruits following, had an influence upon the cause in Wisconsin to make minds jealous of everything bearing the name of visions. All these things should have been taken into consideration, and wisdom exercised. There should be no trial or labor with those who have never seen the individual having visions, and who have had no personal knowledge of the influence of the visions. Such should not be deprived of the benefits and privileges of the church, if their Christian course is otherwise correct, and they have formed a good Christian character.

Some, I was shown, could receive the published visions, judging of the tree by its fruits. Others are like doubting Thomas; they cannot believe the published Testimonies, nor receive evidence through the
testimony of others; but must see and have the evidence for themselves. Such must not be set aside, but long patience and brotherly love should be exercised toward them until they find their position and become established for or against. If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right. God’s people should not cringe and yield, and give up their liberty to such disaffected ones. God has placed the gifts in the church that the church may be benefited by them; and when professed believers in the truth oppose these gifts, and fight against the visions, souls are in danger through their influence, and it is time then to labor with them, that the weak may not be led astray by their
influence. It has been very hard for the servants of God to labor in -----, for there has been a class of self-righteous, talkative, unruly ones there, who have stood in the way of the work of God. If received into the church, they would tear it to pieces. They would not be subject to the body, and would never be satisfied unless the reins of church government were in their own hands. Brother G sought to move with great caution. He knew that the class who opposed the visions were wrong, that they were not genuine believers in the truth; and therefore, to shake off these clogs, he proposed to receive none into the church who did not believe the third angel’s message and the visions. This kept out some few precious souls who had not fought against the visions. They dared not unite with the church, fearing that they should commit themselves upon that which they did not understand and fully believe.

--------


Here is a discussion of the issue on the Ellen White Estate web site:

Question 26: Is the inspiration of Ellen White a test of fellowship? (“Ellen G. White a Test for Membership?”)

Question:

When Walter Martin met with leaders of the Adventist Church, he asked whether belief in Ellen G. White’s writings was a test of fellowship. Instead of answering his question, the leaders quoted Ellen White herself Speaking about those who did not fully understand the gift, she said, “Such should not be de-prived of the benefits and privileges of the church” (see Testimonies for the Church, 1:328).

Why then is belief in the role of Ellen White included as one of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? I have asked more than a hundred Adventist ministers if they would baptize and accept into the fellowship of the church a person who didn’t believe in the role the church claims for Mrs. White. To this date, I have yet to have one tell me that he or she would do so. Ellen White says that those who do not understand the gift should not be denied the benefits and privileges of the church. Why then did the General Conference president, in an article titled “The Church—Authority and Responsibility” (Adventist Review, May 1995), write, “I cannot say that I don’t accept this... fundamental belief of the church and still claim to be part of the church ”?

Answer:

I don’t have a definitive answer to your question about the fundamental beliefs. As far as I know, this was the first statement of our fundamental beliefs ever to name Mrs. White and to express explicitly that the gift of prophecy was manifested in her ministry. I believe I heard that there was discussion about the advisability of including this point. I don’t know what the arguments were that finally prevailed. Of course, I can speculate. It may be that there was broad recognition that, in fact, this article of the fundamental beliefs does indeed describe what the vast majority of Adventists believe, and it would be only honest to come out and say it. For many decades—perhaps throughout the history of this church as an organized movement—we have held that people considering church membership should be taught about the role of the gift of prophecy among us. We haven’t required that people affirm their belief in Ellen White prior to baptism, but our general understanding has been that we ought not to baptize someone who is opposed to accepting her prophetic ministry. This would be unfair to the new member, who would certainly be like a fish out of water. And it would be unfair to the church, which would have a note of discord established within it. On the other hand, let me be the first Adventist minister to answer your question about baptism affirmatively—with this qualification. In the passage from which you have quoted, Mrs. White indicates the conditions: first, the potential members do not yet understand the gift (they haven’t had enough information to make an intelligent choice), and second, “if their Christian course is otherwise correct, and they have formed a good Christian character.” (These words follow right on the ones you quoted.) Such individuals are in the category Mrs. White spelled out in the paragraph just before the one you quoted, “Others had no opposition [to the visions], yet dared not take a decided stand in regard to them.” This, I take it, was from lack of information about the visions or experience with them. They simply didn’t know, but they were not opposed. I wouldn’t hesitate to baptize such a person. The baptismal vow in the Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual poses the right question: “Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church?” If people accept that, then they may join the church if they wish to do so while they examine for themselves the evidences that Mrs. White’s ministry was a genuine manifestation of this gift that they believe in and the presence of which they believe to be an identifying mark of the remnant church of the last days. Lastly, you asked about the General Conference president’s statement that people can’t say they don’t accept this fundamental belief and still claim to be part of the church. Expressing disbelief would be opposition, wouldn’t it? Here we have moved out of the realm of uncertainty, of needing additional time to study and to gain evidence. To say, “I don’t accept this” is to reject it, isn’t it? It is not the same as the group Mrs. White was speaking of, who “had no opposition [to the visions], yet dared not take a decided stand in regard to them.” Regarding the person who refuses to accept after being a member and having time and opportunity to examine the validity of the gift, I would stand with the General Conference president and say that people cannot reject one of the fundamental beliefs of the church and still claim to be a part of the church. “Can two walk together, unless they be agreed?” (Amos 3:3). Such people would be uncomfortable in the church, and the church would be troubled by their influence. If people believe the members of this church are so deceived as to follow one who claimed to have the prophetic gift but who did not have it, why would they want to join them?

--------

Nor is this a new issue:

1964 Francis Nichols

Why I Believe in Mrs. E. G. White

There is another question that is sometimes asked: Should a person be taken into the church who does not accept Mrs. White as God’s special messenger to the remnant church? We believe that the Adventist ministry in general would quickly answer, No. How could we answer otherwise? In view of the fact that such a belief in Mrs. White is one of our articles of faith, why would anyone wish to belong to our church if he did not accept Mrs. White? Would it be fair to him to bring him into the church unless, first, he well understood the doctrine of spiritual gifts, and second, was ready to accept that doctrine? Would we not be doing both him and the church a distinct disservice? Would we not be running the grave risk of later tension and discord?

-------

In regards to removing people from fellowship who do not accept Ellen White, this is not often done in practice that I have seen. However, the church manual does indicate valid reasons for discipline, and the first one is denial of faith in the gospel and in the fundamental beliefs. Again, Ellen White is part of the fundamentals.

The reasons for which members shall be subject to discipline are:

1. Denial of faith in the fundamentals of the gospel and in the Fundamental Beliefs of the Church or teaching doctrines contrary to the same.

In regards to whether a person may serve as a minister without believing in Ellen White's visions, ministers are usually not ordained if they do not believe in Ellen White's writings.

In regards to removing ordination credentials one of the more famous examples is Desmond Ford, a professor and scholar who raised questions regarding a key doctrine, and Ellen White. This is from the Ministry Magazine Glacier view documents. Glacier View was the venue for the Sanctuary review committee that heard Ford's views. The article below recounts the discussion between Ford and the leadership. Wilson was the General Conference president.

From the article "Events Since Glacier View"

The discussion turned to the matter of Ellen G. White and her role in doctrinal and theological matters. Her authority, in relation to Scripture, and the question of whether she could be considered a reliable, inspired commentary of Scripture was examined. In this area Dr. Ford set forth his viewpoint, and indicated that he cannot agree with what the church holds in this matter. Both Pastors Wilson and Bock pleaded with him to look again at the issues, but he indicated that to change his views without evidence would be to deny his conscience. He expressed a willingness to keep silent on these things, but said that it would be impossible for him to preach or support the commonly held Adventist positions without compromising his integrity. Pastor Wilson told him that a minister can not be silent on two such distinctive matters of doctrine and still represent the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
 
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tall73

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You’re funny that way, I was not quoting EGW, I was quoting scripture but I see what you did, nice little twist of context.

You quoted my post, which quoted from Ellen White, and then responded to the wording, which anyone can see.

quote.png



Ellen White was the one who spoke about Rebellion in the post you quoted:

Testimonies Volume 4, pg 211,

It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.

------

And then you said:

There is no scripture that says we can be in rebellion to God and be saved

If it had no relation to my post, there was no reason to quote my post.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You quoted my post, which quoted from Ellen White, and then responded to the wording, which anyone can see.

View attachment 334388


Ellen White was the one who spoke about Rebellion in the post you quoted:

Testimonies Volume 4, pg 211,

It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.

------

And then you said:



If it had no relation to my post, there was no reason to quote my post.
She did not say if you rebel from her you will be heading to perdition, she is saying if you rebel from God, which is a biblical teaching. I guess thats why we need to read the fine print and not just listen to the loudest voice.
 
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tall73

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but rejecting God and being in rebellion to Him and His commandments....


Adventist Heretic keeps the Sabbath and has not rejected God. So you are fine with him then, even though he doesn't accept Ellen White?

Great!
 
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Leaf473

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Regarding being a member, or a pastor if you do not believe in Ellen White:

The answer is a bit complicated. The short answer is that it is possible to be a member of the church and not accept Ellen White. But it largely depends on the local church and minister.

The longer answer:

The Seventh-day Adventist church publishes the Seventh-day Adventist Church manual and includes what are meant to be procedures for the churches. Included in this are two variations of Baptismal vows, a traditional and an alternate. Both include acceptance of the fundamental beliefs of the SDA church. Not every church will use these, but many still will.

You can see the vows in their entirety on page 51:


The baptismal vows do not mention Ellen White. So that would sound like you don't need to accept her. However, they do indicate acceptance of the fundamental beliefs.

11. Do you know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as
taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Do you purpose, by the grace
of God, to fulfill His will by ordering your life in harmony with these
principles?

2. Do you accept the teachings of the Bible as expressed in the
Statement of Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and
do you pledge by God’s grace to live your life in harmony with these
teachings?

The Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental beliefs include Ellen White:

18 The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

So in many churches acceptance of Ellen White is required to become a member. However, some churches do not practice this. And some dispense with the vows and the process outlined in the manual.

Ellen White for her part did not feel that acceptance of the visions should be a test of fellowship for those who were otherwise sincere, and had little knowledge of the visions, and who did not resist them actively:

From Testimonies for the Church Volume 1:

In the last vision given at Battle Creek I was shown that an unwise course was taken at ----- in regard to the visions at the time of the organization of the church there. There were some in ----- who were God’s children, and yet doubted the visions. Others had no opposition, yet dared not take a decided stand in regard to them. Some were skeptical, and they had sufficient cause to make them so. The false visions and fanatical exercises, and the wretched fruits following, had an influence upon the cause in Wisconsin to make minds jealous of everything bearing the name of visions. All these things should have been taken into consideration, and wisdom exercised. There should be no trial or labor with those who have never seen the individual having visions, and who have had no personal knowledge of the influence of the visions. Such should not be deprived of the benefits and privileges of the church, if their Christian course is otherwise correct, and they have formed a good Christian character.

Some, I was shown, could receive the published visions, judging of the tree by its fruits. Others are like doubting Thomas; they cannot believe the published Testimonies, nor receive evidence through the
testimony of others; but must see and have the evidence for themselves. Such must not be set aside, but long patience and brotherly love should be exercised toward them until they find their position and become established for or against. If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right. God’s people should not cringe and yield, and give up their liberty to such disaffected ones. God has placed the gifts in the church that the church may be benefited by them; and when professed believers in the truth oppose these gifts, and fight against the visions, souls are in danger through their influence, and it is time then to labor with them, that the weak may not be led astray by their
influence. It has been very hard for the servants of God to labor in -----, for there has been a class of self-righteous, talkative, unruly ones there, who have stood in the way of the work of God. If received into the church, they would tear it to pieces. They would not be subject to the body, and would never be satisfied unless the reins of church government were in their own hands. Brother G sought to move with great caution. He knew that the class who opposed the visions were wrong, that they were not genuine believers in the truth; and therefore, to shake off these clogs, he proposed to receive none into the church who did not believe the third angel’s message and the visions. This kept out some few precious souls who had not fought against the visions. They dared not unite with the church, fearing that they should commit themselves upon that which they did not understand and fully believe.

--------


Here is a discussion of the issue on the Ellen White Estate web site:

Question 26: Is the inspiration of Ellen White a test of fellowship? (“Ellen G. White a Test for Membership?”)

Question:

When Walter Martin met with leaders of the Adventist Church, he asked whether belief in Ellen G. White’s writings was a test of fellowship. Instead of answering his question, the leaders quoted Ellen White herself Speaking about those who did not fully understand the gift, she said, “Such should not be de-prived of the benefits and privileges of the church” (see Testimonies for the Church, 1:328).

Why then is belief in the role of Ellen White included as one of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? I have asked more than a hundred Adventist ministers if they would baptize and accept into the fellowship of the church a person who didn’t believe in the role the church claims for Mrs. White. To this date, I have yet to have one tell me that he or she would do so. Ellen White says that those who do not understand the gift should not be denied the benefits and privileges of the church. Why then did the General Conference president, in an article titled “The Church—Authority and Responsibility” (Adventist Review, May 1995), write, “I cannot say that I don’t accept this... fundamental belief of the church and still claim to be part of the church ”?

Answer:

I don’t have a definitive answer to your question about the fundamental beliefs. As far as I know, this was the first statement of our fundamental beliefs ever to name Mrs. White and to express explicitly that the gift of prophecy was manifested in her ministry. I believe I heard that there was discussion about the advisability of including this point. I don’t know what the arguments were that finally prevailed. Of course, I can speculate. It may be that there was broad recognition that, in fact, this article of the fundamental beliefs does indeed describe what the vast majority of Adventists believe, and it would be only honest to come out and say it. For many decades—perhaps throughout the history of this church as an organized movement—we have held that people considering church membership should be taught about the role of the gift of prophecy among us. We haven’t required that people affirm their belief in Ellen White prior to baptism, but our general understanding has been that we ought not to baptize someone who is opposed to accepting her prophetic ministry. This would be unfair to the new member, who would certainly be like a fish out of water. And it would be unfair to the church, which would have a note of discord established within it. On the other hand, let me be the first Adventist minister to answer your question about baptism affirmatively—with this qualification. In the passage from which you have quoted, Mrs. White indicates the conditions: first, the potential members do not yet understand the gift (they haven’t had enough information to make an intelligent choice), and second, “if their Christian course is otherwise correct, and they have formed a good Christian character.” (These words follow right on the ones you quoted.) Such individuals are in the category Mrs. White spelled out in the paragraph just before the one you quoted, “Others had no opposition [to the visions], yet dared not take a decided stand in regard to them.” This, I take it, was from lack of information about the visions or experience with them. They simply didn’t know, but they were not opposed. I wouldn’t hesitate to baptize such a person. The baptismal vow in the Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual poses the right question: “Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church?” If people accept that, then they may join the church if they wish to do so while they examine for themselves the evidences that Mrs. White’s ministry was a genuine manifestation of this gift that they believe in and the presence of which they believe to be an identifying mark of the remnant church of the last days. Lastly, you asked about the General Conference president’s statement that people can’t say they don’t accept this fundamental belief and still claim to be part of the church. Expressing disbelief would be opposition, wouldn’t it? Here we have moved out of the realm of uncertainty, of needing additional time to study and to gain evidence. To say, “I don’t accept this” is to reject it, isn’t it? It is not the same as the group Mrs. White was speaking of, who “had no opposition [to the visions], yet dared not take a decided stand in regard to them.” Regarding the person who refuses to accept after being a member and having time and opportunity to examine the validity of the gift, I would stand with the General Conference president and say that people cannot reject one of the fundamental beliefs of the church and still claim to be a part of the church. “Can two walk together, unless they be agreed?” (Amos 3:3). Such people would be uncomfortable in the church, and the church would be troubled by their influence. If people believe the members of this church are so deceived as to follow one who claimed to have the prophetic gift but who did not have it, why would they want to join them?

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Nor is this a new issue:

1964 Francis Nichols

Why I Believe in Mrs. E. G. White

There is another question that is sometimes asked: Should a person be taken into the church who does not accept Mrs. White as God’s special messenger to the remnant church? We believe that the Adventist ministry in general would quickly answer, No. How could we answer otherwise? In view of the fact that such a belief in Mrs. White is one of our articles of faith, why would anyone wish to belong to our church if he did not accept Mrs. White? Would it be fair to him to bring him into the church unless, first, he well understood the doctrine of spiritual gifts, and second, was ready to accept that doctrine? Would we not be doing both him and the church a distinct disservice? Would we not be running the grave risk of later tension and discord?

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In regards to removing people from fellowship who do not accept Ellen White, this is not often done in practice that I have seen. However, the church manual does indicate valid reasons for discipline, and the first one is denial of faith in the gospel and in the fundamental beliefs. Again, Ellen White is part of the fundamentals.

The reasons for which members shall be subject to discipline are:

1. Denial of faith in the fundamentals of the gospel and in the Fundamental Beliefs of the Church or teaching doctrines contrary to the same.

In regards to whether a person may serve as a minister without believing in Ellen White's visions, ministers are usually not ordained if they do not believe in Ellen White's writings.

In regards to removing ordination credentials one of the more famous examples is Desmond Ford, a professor and scholar who raised questions regarding a key doctrine, and Ellen White. This is from the Ministry Magazine Glacier view documents. Glacier View was the venue for the Sanctuary review committee that heard Ford's views. The article below recounts the discussion between Ford and the leadership. Wilson was the General Conference president.

From the article "Events Since Glacier View"

The discussion turned to the matter of Ellen G. White and her role in doctrinal and theological matters. Her authority, in relation to Scripture, and the question of whether she could be considered a reliable, inspired commentary of Scripture was examined. In this area Dr. Ford set forth his viewpoint, and indicated that he cannot agree with what the church holds in this matter. Both Pastors Wilson and Bock pleaded with him to look again at the issues, but he indicated that to change his views without evidence would be to deny his conscience. He expressed a willingness to keep silent on these things, but said that it would be impossible for him to preach or support the commonly held Adventist positions without compromising his integrity. Pastor Wilson told him that a minister can not be silent on two such distinctive matters of doctrine and still represent the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Thanks for the information :heart:

In my experience, most groups have both an official Creed and an unofficial, unwritten Creed.

Officially, my local Stone-Campbell Movement church has no creed ("No creed but the Bible"). Unofficially, they very much have a creed.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Adventist Heretic keeps the Sabbath and has not rejected God. So you are fine with him then, even though he doesn't accept Ellen White?

Great!
It’s not just the Sabbath commandment, there are more commandments to keep than just this one. I do not take issue with him not believing in EGW, I also don’t want to air any personal issues on a public forum as that is not what this place is about. I have family members who are Adventist that choose not to believe in EGW and others that do. My personal observation the ones who do, have a much closer walk with Jesus and have a different glow about them.
 
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tall73

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She did not say if you rebel from her you will be heading to perdition, she is saying if you rebel from God, which is a biblical teaching. I guess thats why we need to read the fine print and not just listen to the loudest voice.


It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.

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She says when the testimonies are doubted and given up. Those following along who don't know what that means, you may note that the name of the book I was quoting from is "Testimonies Vol. 4", one of several volumes of Testimonies to the Church written by Ellen White.

She is speaking of her messages.
 
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It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.

----

She says when the testimonies are doubted and given up. Those following along who don't know what that means, you may note that the name of the book I was quoting from is "Testimonies Vol. 4", one of several volumes of Testimonies to the Church written by Ellen White.

She is speaking of her messages.
She is referring to the testimonies of the Prophets in scripture. I am pretty sure you know this.
 
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She is referring to the testimonies of the Prophets in scripture. I am pretty sure you know this.

I will let those following along decide:

Testimonies volume 5 page 67

God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne. {5T 67.2}

Testimonies volume 5 page 64

Yet now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God.

Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 691. {3SM 46.3}

And now, brethren, I entreat you not to interpose between me and the people, and turn away the light which God would have come to them. Do not by your criticisms take out all the force, all the point and power, from the Testimonies. Do not feel that you can dissect them to suit your own ideas, claiming that God has given you ability to discern what is light from heaven and what is the expression of mere human wisdom. If the Testimonies speak not according to the Word of God, reject them.
 
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