Scripturally, what's wrong with polygamy?

[JRH]

Well, God only made one Eve. And the piousness of Abraham and the other people is irrelivant. They were still sinners. God loves them equally as with everyone else. Abraham obviously didn't keep ALL of God's laws as that is impossible (asside from Jesus). Now not to be rude, but the bible doesn't specifically say that dropping a 16 ton anvil on a 72 year old man is evil, and yet we know that it is covered by "Thou Shalt Not Kill". No human heart is without lust of some kind. Even in the case of a man marrying a single woman with hopes of generating offspring there is nearly always been lust involved. I don't believe you would go to Hell for polygamy, but if you are a follower of Jesus, you won't go to hell no matter how big of a sin you commit. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid sins like lust. I can think of no case where a polygamist HAS NEEDED many wives. That which you do not need, you want. And want is a sin.

 

[solemn_dove]

Ok. Then please answer my point. Does God use unrighteous means to acheive righteous ends? Would God represent Himself allegorically as something He finds unrighteous? Now as far as human motivations for plural marriage, as I said before, that is a completely separate topic. But the simple truth is that there is no biblical prohibition against it. It is governed in God's law, the bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the bible says that God is holy and God is righteous. I am not claiming that plural marriage is something that should be pursued in this time, I am just saying that we, as the created, have no right to call something sin that the Creator never did. I am, of course, open to scriptural instruction to the contrary.

 

[solemn_dove]

And another point, as to no polygamist needing many wives, I would tend to agree. But then, I do not view being married monogamously as a need either. A blessing, a gift, for sure....but a need? Unless one is under the control of his or her passions, I do not see any form of marriage as a need....rather as a gift and a blessing. And I believe that idea can be substantiated by the Pauline epistles.

 

[Svt4Him]

Sorry, haven't read this all, but if you want to use Abraham as an example, then you have to say that lying is ok, or lack of faith is ok, because of the accolades given to Abraham. The new testament calls Christians saints, but to say that that means all we do is saintly is incorrect.

A man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wives...???

 

[Svt4Him]

"saying that God would use unrighteous means to acheive a righteous end."



The Bible is full of them. Well, God uses unrighteous men who use unrighteous means.

 

[solemn_dove]

I am not about to argue the relative merits of polygamy versus monogamy. The question on this thread is, is it wrong scripturally? And, overwhelmingly, the answer has to be no. David was a man after God's own heart....he had about eighteen wives.....Jacob was Israel....and his twelve sons by four women were the foundation of the bloodlines for God's chosen people. Gideo, we dont know how many wives he had, but the bible indicates several anyway, and he was a judge. It is a commonly known sociological bit of history that polygyny was fairly commonplace in Jewish society when Christ was on earth, but yet....He never spoke one word against it....not one. Did He just forget to address the matter?

As for your assertion that God uses unrighteous men.....of course He does....all men are unrighteous until He reconciles them to Him. However, that was not the question...the question was, is it possible God Himself would be unrighteous to bring about a righteous end?......the simple truth is, there is no biblical prohibition to polygyny....none.

 

[Carico]

God said that David's affair with Bathsheba was a direct result of not being able to control his sexual appetites with so many wives and concubines. David was punished severely for his lack of self control. God struck down his first son with Bathsheba and told him that there would be bloodshed on the heads of his other sons except for Solomon. The lives of the people in the OT were recorded to show us what happens to us when we sin and how much we need a redeemer. David was no exception. His sins were NOT endorsed by God.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

God said that David's affair with Bathsheba was a direct result of not being able to control his sexual appetites with so many wives and concubines. David was punished severely for his lack of self control. God struck down his first son with Bathsheba and told him that there would be bloodshed on the heads of his other sons except for Solomon. The lives of the people in the OT were recorded to show us what happens to us when we sin and how much we need a redeemer. David was no exception. His sins were NOT endorsed by God.

The argument against polygyny is that it is adultery. The definition of adultery being a husband or wife who has intercourse with another person who is not their husband/wife.

ie, a married man who sleeps with anyone else who is not his current one and only wife. The sin that is ascribed to polygynists is adultery.

Now David had many wives before he took Bathsheba. Not once did God punish or reprimand him. Yet if David was truly sinning, then why did God not punish him for adultery until he took another man's wife? And even afterwards, his sin was only ever because of Bathsheba. For that he was punished, and that he repented of.

There is no mention of his other wives.

So this passage is in fact a testimony to God's endorsement of polygyny, not His rejection of it.

Edit: in my understanding, the correct, Scriptural definition of adultery is a man who sleeps with another man's wife. ie, a man commits adultery if he sleeps with another man's wife, and a woman commits adultery if she sleeps with another man besides her husband.

 

[solemn_dove]

God stated in 2 Samuel that He, in fact, GAVE David his wives. Now, logically, does it make sense that God would give someone a sinful gift? I know the subject of polygamy touches many nerves......and much of what is going on today in modern polygamy is pure evil, but the simple, basic and scripturally irrefutable evidence is that polygamy is NOT prohibited in scripture, was legislated in scripture, and practiced by many of the greatest men of the faith in scripture. There is simply no getting around that. As I have said before, if you want to discuss whether or not what is done to day is righteous....or whether polygamy has a place in the modern body, that is a completely different topic. Nevertheless......there is no scriptural condemnation.

As to David's sin, he was most definitely guilty of adultery with Bathsheba....she was already married to another man. He compounded that sin with the sin of murder. Therein lies his guilt and that was what he repented of and had to suffer the consequences of, not of having more than one wife. That was never the issue with the Bathsheba incident.

We need, in scriptural issues, to be careful of allowing our emotions to influence our interpretation of scripture. I find modern patriarchal polygamy abhorrent....full of lies, abuse and manipulation. But that does not mean that the bible condemns the institution of polygamy.....it simple means that sinful men have perpetrated abuses under its guise. This has happened with many biblical principles. That does not negate the principle....rather it negates the behavior of the people who claim to be practicing it, IMHO.

 

[snerkel]

From a Scriptural viewpoint, what is the objection made against polygamy? I have been unable to find any condemnation of it in either the old or new testament.

When I say polygamy, I should really say polygyny, since I'm not interested in whether wives can have more than one husband (I don't think they ever should, but that's not the topic at hand).

I found an older thread on the topic here, which you'll find one reply by me. I'm looking for more details though, specifically where the new testament rejection of polygamy comes from. I've heard some say that it was like divorce - God tolerated it because of the stubborness of their hearts, but now rejects it - though I can find no confirmation of that anywhere.

I suggest you read through this quickly anyway, it's pretty short:
http://www.christianforums.com/t20113
If you don't read it, at least read my post which I'm assuming you have, as it gives a little more details on my thoughts:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=862877&postcount=17

The reason I started a new thread is because the old one is almost a year old, was in a forum I thought was inappropriate, and because I wanted to ask more specifically about Scripture.

Matthew 19:1-6 would be a good place to begin.

 

[solemn_dove]

Matt 19:1-7
19:1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there. 3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" 4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
NKJV

This is the entire text of the verses mentioned above. It is plain to see that it is an injunction against divorce. It takes a bit of creative interpretation to extend this passage to an injunction against polygamy. I know someone is going to point out that it says wife, not wives....and the two shall become one flesh....and the logical point is, that the two becoming one does not exclude poly....just illustrates the nature of the relationship between husband and wife....the permanent nature of it. Be it one wife, or more than one, it is permanent. Clearly, this is the only thing that can be logically inferred from this passage.

 

[snerkel]

Matt 19:1-7


This is the entire text of the verses mentioned above. It is plain to see that it is an injunction against divorce. It takes a bit of creative interpretation to extend this passage to an injunction against polygamy. I know someone is going to point out that it says wife, not wives....and the two shall become one flesh....and the logical point is, that the two becoming one does not exclude poly....just illustrates the nature of the relationship between husband and wife....the permanent nature of it. Be it one wife, or more than one, it is permanent. Clearly, this is the only thing that can be logically inferred from this passage.

Cleave (Proskollao - Strongs 4347) literally means "to glue upon, glue to; to join one's self to closely, cleave to, stick to.

Merriam-Webster defines cleave as "to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly.

Unwaveringly means steadfastly, no? Where is the loyalty and steadfastness in polygamy?

 

[Carico]

There many sins that David and other men committed in the OT that were not punished until way later. Quite often God allows sin to lead to consequences that have dire affects on one's life. There are consequences everyday for the sins that we commit. Most of us do not learn from them until something happens that we can no longer run from. David and Bathsheba were one such example. The desire of some to justify polygamy is what needs to be looked at. Jesus said clearly what God intended when God made male and female. There are many people who try to find loopholes in what He said in order to justify their sexual appetites.

 

[solemn_dove]

You are correct in stating that many people try to find loopholes in Gods word to justify their sinful behavior.....and it is no different with marriage related scripture. That remains irrelevant. What was asked originally is what, scripturally, is wrong with polygamy. Now, monogamous spouses cheat, lie, abuse and break their vows. Does that make monogamy bad? There are people who use the sumission scriptures as justification to horribly abuse others. Does that make Godly submission bad? God even represents Himself allegorically as a polygamous husband in Ezekiel and Jeremiah. Again I ask....would He do that if He found polygamy inherently sinful or unrighteous? Like I said, it is necessary to remove one's emotional bias and assess what scripture does say....or in this case, does not say.....on its factual merits. People's motivations for entering it are, in this discussion, irrelevant.

 

[Carico]

One also has to discern scripture through the Holy Spirit. That means interpreting it through Christ's words. Christ said why God created male and female, "to become ONE flesh." Not to become ONE flesh with everyone you want to and try to justify it with vows. You are right in saying that man cannot have emotional bias when using discernment. That means not allowing his sexual desires to influence what the bible says. Only people who want to have sex with more than one person will be interested in trying to justify polygamy. Jesus also said that it is better if one abstains but not all are called to do that. That means that He thinks less sex is better than more. To truly understand the bible, one has to understand the fruits of the spirit. Desires of the flesh do not qualify as fruits of the spirit. When the desires of the flesh are used to glorify God's creation of male and female, they are not sins. But if used specifically for self gratification, they are considered sins.

 

[snerkel]

God even represents Himself allegorically as a polygamous husband in Ezekiel and Jeremiah. Again I ask....would He do that if He found polygamy inherently sinful or unrighteous? Like I said, it is necessary to remove one's emotional bias and assess what scripture does say....or in this case, does not say.....on its factual merits. People's motivations for entering it are, in this discussion, irrelevant.

Would you mind referencing specific Scriptures for the above statement? Thanks.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

Cleave (Proskollao - Strongs 4347) literally means "to glue upon, glue to; to join one's self to closely, cleave to, stick to.

Merriam-Webster defines cleave as "to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly.

Unwaveringly means steadfastly, no? Where is the loyalty and steadfastness in polygamy?

How does the definition of "cleave" infer that polygyny is comprised of unloyalty and no steadfastness?
It is quite possible to have loyalty and steadfastness in polygyny - I don't understand how you are saying that it doesn't. You are going to have to be more descriptive than that, because your interpretation is not what is natural to me.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

One also has to discern scripture through the Holy Spirit. That means interpreting it through Christ's words. Christ said why God created male and female, "to become ONE flesh." Not to become ONE flesh with everyone you want to and try to justify it with vows.

You use the words "and try to justify" as if you have already established that polygyny is unscriptural. You must first establish that before you can use phrases that indicate a failed attempt.

The understanding of one flesh is that King David was one flesh with *all* of his wives, not just one of them. There was no need to attempt to justify it - it just was.

Only people who want to have sex with more than one person will be interested in trying to justify polygamy.

Completely untrue, and again you must explain why you believe this. I consider it possible for a man to desire more than one wife independant of any considerations of the "extra sex" he might desire. He could desire multiple wives out of a genuine love for these women, a desire to protect them and strengthen them in a Christian family. Why do you assume that all polygynists enter into it just to satisfy their unbridled (in your eyes) sexual desires?

Jesus also said that it is better if one abstains but not all are called to do that. That means that He thinks less sex is better than more.

No, it means that Jesus thinks that for those who it has been given, it is better to abstain than to have a wife. ie, abstinance so that one can pursue God is better than being married. He says nothing of the number of times a person has intercourse.

But if used specifically for self gratification, they are considered sins.

First, as I said, I don't believe all polygynists enter into such a relationship for self gratification. Second of all, Paul advises people to be married rather than burn with passion - ie, precisely for self gratification. Ultimately with the goal of avoiding sin, but still the same.

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

Edit: I recommend those who are new to read through this thread, because there was a great deal of conversation that went on a long time ago, and words look to be repeated now.

Would you mind referencing specific Scriptures for the above statement? Thanks.

Ezekiel 23 (in particular verse 4). Not sure about the other one.

 

[solemn_dove]

Ezek 23:1-34
23:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
5 "Oholah engaged in prostitution while she was still mine; and she lusted after her lovers, the Assyrians-warriors 6 clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, and mounted horsemen. 7 She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite of the Assyrians and defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after. 8 She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her.
9 "Therefore I handed her over to her lovers, the Assyrians, for whom she lusted. 10 They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword. She became a byword among women, and punishment was inflicted on her.
11 "Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet in her lust and prostitution she was more depraved than her sister. 12 She too lusted after the Assyrians-governors and commanders, warriors in full dress, mounted horsemen, all handsome young men. 13 I saw that she too defiled herself; both of them went the same way.
14 "But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeans portrayed in red, 15 with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea. 16 As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17 Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. 18 When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. 19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 21 So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.
22 "Therefore, Oholibah, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will stir up your lovers against you, those you turned away from in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side- 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, the men of Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, handsome young men, all of them governors and commanders, chariot officers and men of high rank, all mounted on horses. 24 They will come against you with weapons, chariots and wagons and with a throng of people; they will take up positions against you on every side with large and small shields and with helmets. I will turn you over to them for punishment, and they will punish you according to their standards. 25 I will direct my jealous anger against you, and they will deal with you in fury. They will cut off your noses and your ears, and those of you who are left will fall by the sword. They will take away your sons and daughters, and those of you who are left will be consumed by fire. 26 They will also strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry. 27 So I will put a stop to the lewdness and prostitution you began in Egypt. You will not look on these things with longing or remember Egypt anymore.
28 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to hand you over to those you hate, to those you turned away from in disgust. 29 They will deal with you in hatred and take away everything you have worked for. They will leave you naked and bare, and the shame of your prostitution will be exposed. Your lewdness and promiscuity 30 have brought this upon you, because you lusted after the nations and defiled yourself with their idols. 31 You have gone the way of your sister; so I will put her cup into your hand.
32 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"You will drink your sister's cup, a cup large and deep; it will bring scorn and derision, for it holds so much. 33 You will be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, the cup of ruin and desolation, the cup of your sister Samaria. 34 You will drink it and drain it dry; you will dash it to pieces and tear your breasts.
NIV


Jer 3:6-10
6 During the reign of King Josiah, the LORD said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD.
NIV


These passages are the ones I was speaking specifically of. Now, as to motivations, reasons, practices, ideologies and sexual mores, I suggest another thread be started for that discussion, as it continues to derail the original topic of this thread as an emotional and irrelevant side issue to the topic of the scripturality of polygyny.