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Scottish Independence

Montalban

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300 year is a long time in the minds of many people though. Maybe I do take Scotland for granted, but only in the same way I take my friends for granted. I don't expect them to betray me if they have only known me for 2 years, which isn't alot compared to my 21 years of life.
If you took them for granted you'd call them leaving you a betrayal?

Interesting. It's their fault you ignore them and it's their fault that they leave you.


You didn't say that the phrase belonged to the British Navy.
It's from a famous phrase from Nelson - attributed to him before the battle of Trafalgar. I didn't say it's the British navy, 'cause it's called the Royal Navy.

They have been a part of Europe longer than anywhere else wouldn't you say? Plus Greece in in Europe and have the same sort of values (as far as I know). If Turkey can be European, Greece definitely is.
He for Eurovision you include Israel! :D
But as long as we keep our secular laws there wont be any difference.
Even your secular laws are (greatfully) influenced by Christian ideas

Donoghue v Stevenson is a classic court case giving rise to a number of laws protecting people

And, incidentally, it was a case begun in Scotland! The two dissenting judges (law lords) were English!
 
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lismore

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How do you feel about the SNP pushing for Scottish Independence from the UK?

Of course that would be wrong. It would be wrong for Scotland to even think of independence. It's ok for all the other world's countries to be independent though.

And we should definitely go to war, have ten of thousands of young Scots killed and maimed to keep Belgian Railways independent.

But Scottish independence would be off the scale of lunacy. All the British Prime Ministers loved Scotland bless their hearts. One or two even came here sometimes. At least one in recent times knew where the major towns and cities were.

Even though Scotland managed for a thousand years as an independent nation they couldn't now because of the ho he and the one two three. Too dumb to run a country.

All the other countries that used to be British are falling over themselves to get back into Britain, led by the USA!
 
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Montalban

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Of course that would be wrong. It would be wrong for Scotland to even think of independence. It's ok for all the other world's countries to be independent though.

And we should definitely go to war, have ten of thousands of young Scots killed and maimed to keep Belgian Railways independent.

But Scottish independence would be off the scale of lunacy. All the British Prime Ministers loved Scotland bless their hearts. One or two even came here sometimes. At least one in recent times knew where the major towns and cities were.

Even though Scotland managed for a thousand years as an independent nation they couldn't now because of the ho he and the one two three. Too dumb to run a country.

All the other countries that used to be British are falling over themselves to get back into Britain, led by the USA!

Don't forget all the innovations and discoveries by Scots that have made the UK great.

They are far out of proportion to the number of Scots.
 
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Philothei

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Why don't you like Europe?



Europe in general is democratic. The EU will become democratic in time once the general public accepts it more.



I don't know what they are XD

Nothing to like Europe about IMHO that's all. We are Greek and proud of our history. We do not have "dark" spots in our history like some with slave trade etc.... So why would we like Europe for? its culture? pleassssse...

Europe was always autocratic since the inception of the Roman Empire and on...Democracy the way it was in Ancient Athens has NOTHING to do with the way the Europeans run it....

I won't derail... about the elgin marbles... you can google ;)
 
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Paradoxum

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If you took them for granted you'd call them leaving you a betrayal?

Well it depends what you mean by taking them for granted. I shouldn't have to constantly tell them how much I value their friendship and avoid all arguments to be friends. It should be taken for granted that I am their friend. Constant explicit mention of that fact might make it look like I doubt their friendship and that I feel I need to keep hearing them tell me that I am their friend to feel secure. When you have known someone for so long they become part of your life.

Interesting. It's their fault you ignore them and it's their fault that they leave you.

I only ignore Scotland as much as anyone else. I ignore every city I never go to.

It's from a famous phrase from Nelson - attributed to him before the battle of Trafalgar. I didn't say it's the British navy, 'cause it's called the Royal Navy.

I was wondering if you were going to correct my wording.

He for Eurovision you include Israel! :D

I'm not sure what your saying here, but I would include Israel in the EU once it sorts its problems out.

Even your secular laws are (greatfully) influenced by Christian ideas

I'm sure your right.

Donoghue v Stevenson is a classic court case giving rise to a number of laws protecting people

And, incidentally, it was a case begun in Scotland! The two dissenting judges (law lords) were English!

Its a crazy world XD

Nothing to like Europe about IMHO that's all. We are Greek and proud of our history. We do not have "dark" spots in our history like some with slave trade etc.... So why would we like Europe for? its culture? pleassssse...

Europe was always autocratic since the inception of the Roman Empire and on...Democracy the way it was in Ancient Athens has NOTHING to do with the way the Europeans run it....

I won't derail... about the elgin marbles... you can google ;)

Well I know little about Greek history so I can't argue that point. How about for trying to make the world better? Clear example in recent climate talks. The EU stood for making changes while pretty much every other big country was against it.
 
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Montalban

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I'm not sure what your saying here, but I would include Israel in the EU once it sorts its problems out.
It's not in Europe though.

Its a crazy world XD

The background to the case is interesting (at least to geeks like me)

It's about a woman who gets a bottle of ginger-beer at a restaurant. The bottle was opaque and sealed when she got it. She took a drink. And then another then found a snail in the bottle.

She went to sue the manufacturers who said that they didn't sell her the drink, the restaurant had.

The background to the judges is just as interesting.

There were five judges (law lords). The two dissenting law lords were English. Lord Buckmaster, summoning up the minority view said that there was no precedent for it in English law and therefore ruled against it.,, excepting when the goods sold were of their very nature dangerous (such as gunpowder).

The three other Lords (with Lord Atkin giving the majority judgment) were of Irish or Scots background. Under Scots law they work on a matter of 'principle' rather than what is set down in stone.

Lord Atkin, reading about 'love thy neighbour' in the Bible asked "who is my neighbour, in law?' and concluded anyone that might be affected by one's actions, even if through other parties.

The case had gone through the Scottish legal system all the way to the House of Lords and because of the quirky nature of the union the House of Lords is also the top of the English system. So once they'd ruled on it it became a precedent setting case for the English system, and from thence throughout the nations using common law – even the US – where they can examine cases in other common law systems and succumb to their 'persuasive influence'

From this we have the laws on consumer protection.

If it weren't for Christians Scots you could buy a toy for your kids from a market and if it injured you'd have no recourse.
 
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lismore

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I only ignore Scotland as much as anyone else. I ignore every city I never go to.

.

Scottish independence would not change that much.

The queen would still be head of state, we would still be in the commonwealth.

Maybe like what it was like 1603-1707?
 
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SithDoughnut

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If there was a referendum and the Scottish people voted significantly in favour of it, then I'll willingly support them in their pursuit of their own state, while simultaneously telling them that it is not a good idea.

I will also reserve a polite "I told you so" when the new independent Scotland finds that it now has a massively reduced economy and is almost certainly in a worse situation than before it went for independence.

If Scotland truly wants independence, then it would be best if it worked on becoming a fully-independent country before trying to officially declare it.
 
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Paradoxum

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It's not in Europe though.

It could be said that is European though. I'm all for the spread of democracy, rights, peace, justice and a higher standard of living under the banner of the EU, though it may have to change its name if it spreads far beyond traditional Europe.

The background to the case is interesting (at least to geeks like me

Well I agree it is good what the Scottish judge did.

Scottish independence would not change that much.

The queen would still be head of state, we would still be in the commonwealth.

Maybe like what it was like 1603-1707?

If it wouldn't change that much why do they want it?
 
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lismore

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If it wouldn't change that much why do they want it?

For the things that it would change. Full control over taxes and expenditure etc. I believe the Scottish government has different ideas on how to resolve the financial crisis than the English government does.
 
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GeminiMoon

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If Scotland were separate then there wouldn't be a UK to help them as the United Kingdom is the union of the kingdoms of Scotland and England.

I don't understand the beginning of this sentence. What do you mean you're a person different from the Tories? Aren't they people too?


Bahhh i'm just going to go on what i've read so far.

Let's get things straight, the UK is not a Union between England and Scotland. It is a union of Britain (England, Scotland, Wales) and Northern Ireland. So Scotland WOULD run to a UK (England, Wales, Northern Ireland) to bail them out. Looks like you too need to do some research.

Also, what is this about England having too much power in Scotland? Scotland have their own assembly where they decide matters of Education, Tax etc. I think you will find that it is Scotland that has too much say in the affairs of England. A recent example would be University fees, where Scottish MP's voted in favour of rising fees for English students, but the sneaky bugars made sure that it remained free for their own Scottish students. Yet English MP's had no say in the fees of Scotland. How is that fair? I find that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland receive more attention than England at times. They are given the special treatment.

My opinion is that we should keep the union, but if the Scots want to break it and bring about their own downfall, then I say go right ahead. We'll be there saying "We told you so".
 
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underheaven

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Bahhh i'm just going to go on what i've read so far.

Let's get things straight, the UK is not a Union between England and Scotland. It is a union of Britain (England, Scotland, Wales) and Northern Ireland. So Scotland WOULD run to a UK (England, Wales, Northern Ireland) to bail them out. Looks like you too need to do some research.

Also, what is this about England having too much power in Scotland? Scotland have their own assembly where they decide matters of Education, Tax etc. I think you will find that it is Scotland that has too much say in the affairs of England. A recent example would be University fees, where Scottish MP's voted in favour of rising fees for English students, but the sneaky bugars made sure that it remained free for their own Scottish students. Yet English MP's had no say in the fees of Scotland. How is that fair? I find that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland receive more attention than England at times. They are given the special treatment.

My opinion is that we should keep the union, but if the Scots want to break it and bring about their own downfall, then I say go right ahead. We'll be there saying "We told you so".
I am only writing here for the sake of Truth. I believe that at judgement we will be asked among
other things,why we lived all our lives in lies and ignorance.This is particularly true of English
middle and upper classes,with whom I as an Irish Scot have nothing in common except ,a forced
on us language.
In 1707 when the so called Union of the Crowns took place it was against the desire of the
overwhelming [95 %] majority of Scottish people .
In 1745 the last freedom battle took place at Culloden,and the independence movement was
finally defeated .There is monument in the open air to this terrrible slaughter. But they
[[the English were not finished with the Scots. The Butcher ,the duke of cumberland,sent
out a decree that every boy ,man of 15/16 or more who had survived ,was to be put to the
sword,and they were.
Later the English decided that they wanted the profitable sheep farming business,so they burned
down the houses of all those whose land they wanted. The luckier ones were able to get onto
boats going to the States or Canada with their very few belongings,but the others were forced
onto barren rocks,where many of course died. They were made to feel by these 'great and good
English 'and their lackies,[ border scots mainly] that they had made God angry,and so it was their fault. Some Scots have long memories,passed from generation to generation, of the horrors that happened to their peoples .For them ,who came from loving supportive communities,where wealth was more shared
as Jesus woud have it, it was doubly terrible ,because the ones who took their place were greedy
money grubbers, ruthless snobs[for no reason except ignorance] who had no loyalty to any higher purpose of love. :idea:
So those who know the price of everything ,and the value of nothing ,would not begin to understand
the love of tribal peoples for each other,and their true worship of God,without all the 'ritual' and money .
 
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Cromulent

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Also, what is this about England having too much power in Scotland? Scotland have their own assembly where they decide matters of Education, Tax etc. I think you will find that it is Scotland that has too much say in the affairs of England. A recent example would be University fees, where Scottish MP's voted in favour of rising fees for English students, but the sneaky bugars made sure that it remained free for their own Scottish students. Yet English MP's had no say in the fees of Scotland. How is that fair? I find that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland receive more attention than England at times. They are given the special treatment.
They are given special treatment because they are special cases. Of course, English policy should not be dictated from Holyrood, but neither should Scottish policy be dictated from London. What motivation does a conservative government have to do anything good for Scotland, where they never win any votes anyway? Why would the 50 million people of England vote in measures that would be good for the 5 million Scots?

As an independent nation, Scottish people could decide what is best for Scotland. And England wouldn't have some crucial swing issues decided by who wins a seat in Orkney.

My opinion is that we should keep the union, but if the Scots want to break it and bring about their own downfall, then I say go right ahead. We'll be there saying "We told you so".

There is no more reason an independent Scotland would be a disaster than there would be for Norway, or Sweden, or Denmark to be. I believe Scotland would try and base their economy and society on those nations. The important thing would be for the transition to be gradual but purposeful. The most dangerous thing an independent Scottish government could do would be to make a clean and instant break with Westminster, which would risk throwing the entire country into chaos.
 
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Paradoxum

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I am only writing here for the sake of Truth. I believe that at judgement we will be asked among
other things,why we lived all our lives in lies and ignorance.This is particularly true of English
middle and upper classes,with whom I as an Irish Scot have nothing in common except ,a forced
on us language.

Nothing in common? Scotland is a third world wasteland?

In 1707 when the so called Union of the Crowns took place it was against the desire of the
overwhelming [95 %] majority of Scottish people .
In 1745 the last freedom battle took place at Culloden,and the independence movement was
finally defeated .There is monument in the open air to this terrrible slaughter. But they
[[the English were not finished with the Scots. The Butcher ,the duke of cumberland,sent
out a decree that every boy ,man of 15/16 or more who had survived ,was to be put to the
sword,and they were.
Later the English decided that they wanted the profitable sheep farming business,so they burned
down the houses of all those whose land they wanted. The luckier ones were able to get onto
boats going to the States or Canada with their very few belongings,but the others were forced
onto barren rocks,where many of course died. They were made to feel by these 'great and good
English 'and their lackies,[ border scots mainly] that they had made God angry,and so it was their fault. Some Scots have long memories,passed from generation to generation, of the horrors that happened to their peoples .For them ,who came from loving supportive communities,where wealth was more shared
as Jesus woud have it, it was doubly terrible ,because the ones who took their place were greedy
money grubbers, ruthless snobs[for no reason except ignorance] who had no loyalty to any higher purpose of love. :idea:
So those who know the price of everything ,and the value of nothing ,would not begin to understand
the love of tribal peoples for each other,and their true worship of God,without all the 'ritual' and money .

I'm not really sure why this has anything to do with anything to be honest...

They are given special treatment because they are special cases. Of course, English policy should not be dictated from Holyrood, but neither should Scottish policy be dictated from London. What motivation does a conservative government have to do anything good for Scotland, where they never win any votes anyway? Why would the 50 million people of England vote in measures that would be good for the 5 million Scots?

Why should London have control over Cornwall? Why don't we just break up the country into small tribes because times were better back then... weren't they? ;)

As an independent nation, Scottish people could decide what is best for Scotland. And England wouldn't have some crucial swing issues decided by who wins a seat in Orkney.

My thinking is that unity is better than division. I don't like having a conservative government, but I'm not allowed to be a country to myself.
 
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