Scottish Independence

[Judy02]

Ah no, I've started a debate on what is northern, midlands and southern England

Why do people disagree on this so much?

If we're just speaking solely about England, and not including Britain in this, in particular Scotland, if you look at the piece of land that compromises England on a map, Chester is in the northern part of English land...just. And I'll admit only just, like Liverpool is really only just in the north.

Maybe Cheshire doesn't fit some people's stereotypes of the north being a lot more working class and poorer, as Cheshire is mostly a more affluent county, but it is still in the northern part of England, sorry If we all agree where the borders start for England and end after Scotland, then it is...just look at a map.

Just because some people live a lot further north, doesn't really give them a claim that places that are a fair way further south can't still be classed as northern England. England is still a country, it's like using the argument that Britain can't be in the northern hemisphere because Norway or Iceland happens to be further north than us. That doesn't change the overall geography.

Less blind patriotism please

 

[Montalban]

You know what I mean though don't you.

That's part of the problem though - Scotland is taken for granted.

Such as "England expects every man to do his duty..."

Insert 'personally' if that helps.

It doesn't

Thanks

You're more than welcome.

 

[Obzocky]

Ah no, I've started a debate on what is northern, midlands and southern England

Why do people disagree on this so much?

If we're just speaking solely about England, and not including Britain in this, in particular Scotland, if you look at the piece of land that compromises England on a map, Chester is in the northern part of English land...just. And I'll admit only just, like Liverpool is really only just in the north.

Maybe Cheshire doesn't fit some people's stereotypes of the north being a lot more working class and poorer, as Cheshire is mostly a more affluent county, but it is still in the northern part of England, sorry If we all agree where the borders start for England and end after Scotland, then it is...just look at a map.

Just because some people live a lot further north, doesn't really give them a claim that places that are a fair way further south can't still be classed as northern England. England is still a country, it's like using the argument that Britain can't be in the northern hemisphere because Norway or Iceland happens to be further north than us. That doesn't change the overall geography.

Less blind patriotism please

It's all a bit of fun, purely because we're all silly like that.
I know some of us border landers who'd argue Liverpool shouldn't be considered the North too .
Less arguments and more being annoying prats who like to take the pee out of anyone below Lancaster, particularly if they react in a rather brilliant way to defend their/someone elses right to be known as Northern rather than just English based on geography

 

[Philothei]

What?

Well the golden rule of England : divide and conquer I think it comes around to haunt her!


http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=59266687

How could you not be what you are?

I am NOT European What part of this is not clear? Look language wise we do not belong to the Latin/germanic languages...We are indigenous people who have an "anadelfos" (not sisterly/related) language. The only ones we can identify are the Slavs since we gave them their alphabet I do not see that ONLY a geographic location has to define where one belongs.... We are not "brotherly related" to NONE... Like it or not we are NOT Europe...But l won't derail here....

 

[Montalban]

Well the golden rule of England : divide and conquer I think it comes around to haunt her!

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
-Yes, Minister!

 

[Paradoxum]

That's part of the problem though - Scotland is taken for granted.

I take it for granted as part of the UK because that is the only state of affairs I have ever known. Why should I suppose Scotland is separate from the UK when we have been together as one for so long?

Such as "England expects every man to do his duty..."

What's wrong with this?

It doesn't

I am personally different in my thinking to Tories. I don't agree with them, but still have to accept their leadership.

Well the golden rule of England : divide and conquer I think it comes around to haunt her!

Don't really know what to say to this

I am NOT European What part of this is not clear? Look language wise we do not belong to the Latin/germanic languages...We are indigenous people who have an "anadelfos" (not sisterly/related) language. The only ones we can identify are the Slavs since we gave them their alphabet I do not see that ONLY a geographic location has to define where one belongs.... We are not "brotherly related" to NONE... Like it or not we are NOT Europe...But l won't derail here....

Aren't you Greek though? Greek ideas are completely intertwined in Europe. Eg: Plato, Aristotle, Democracy, etc.

 

[underheaven]

What?



How could you not be what you are?



You know what I mean though don't you.



Insert 'personally' if that helps.



Thanks

I am more interested in your quote from Neitzche than independence,although I would be for it normally ,but will no longer suppport Salmond. He does not have the clarity of esprit to be a great leader .He has followed the downward spiralling p.c. pressure.
So how do you interpret this Neitzche quote.......? It is not clear.

 

[Philothei]

Don't really know what to say to this

Ah...well did not mean to put ya in the spot but yeah nothing can be said

Aren't you Greek though? Greek ideas are completely intertwined in Europe. Eg: Plato, Aristotle, Democracy, etc.

Nah... I am Greek but NOT European No commonality there... Yeah you took Plato and Aristotele...we did not force it to you though either ...

As far as democracy it seems to be elitocracy and profitocracy but nothing about it is democratic

BTW once you are at it...Bring back our Elgin marbles

 

[Paradoxum]

I am more interested in your quote from Neitzche than independence,although I would be for it normally ,but will no longer suppport Salmond. He does not have the clarity of esprit to be a great leader .He has followed the downward spiralling p.c. pressure.
So how do you interpret this Neitzche quote.......? It is not clear.

Although there never was a God we have killed off our greatest ideal and now must cope without it. Perhaps we will have to substitute God for something else to appease our psychological need that lead us to belief in God in the first place. Even though there is no God, perhaps we should aspire to become of the incarnation of the ideal that we once held, to make humankind (or its evolution) the loving power that the universe lacks. If that is too much to ask then we should become messengers of the ideal; angels you could say.

I'm not saying that this is Nietzsche's understanding though.

Nah... I am Greek but NOT European No commonality there... Yeah you took Plato and Aristotele...we did not force it to you though either ..

Why don't you like Europe?

As far as democracy it seems to be elitocracy and profitocracy but nothing about it is democratic

Europe in general is democratic. The EU will become democratic in time once the general public accepts it more.

BTW once you are at it...Bring back our Elgin marbles

I don't know what they are XD

 

[Cromulent]

I take it for granted as part of the UK because that is the only state of affairs I have ever known. Why should I suppose Scotland is separate from the UK when we have been together as one for so long?

Because Scotland maintains its own identity, which is very strong, in spite of historic and current ties to the UK. Don't ask me to define a national identity, because I lack the skill with words to do it, but the Scots definitely have one. The best way to experience it is simply to spend time among the Scots.

And if the Scots believe (as I do), that Scotland would be better off with more autonomy from London than she currently enjoys, they have the right to self-determination.

In response to your post about seceding from the Union to form a Lib Dem nation, there's a certain scale at which things become farcical. Fifteen people wanting to split from the country would be. Ten million people have the right to a nation of their own if they so wish. The dividing line lies somewhere in between, and moves greatly with a number of factors.



I hope that answers your question. I've tried to be as un-hand-wavey as I can, but it's difficult!

 

[Montalban]

I take it for granted as part of the UK because that is the only state of affairs I have ever known. Why should I suppose Scotland is separate from the UK when we have been together as one for so long?

300 years isn't so long in the scheme of Britain. However you took it for granted in the way you worded your comment - which I replied to

What's wrong with this?

Because at the time there were non-English in the (British) Royal Navy - again another case of you taking it for granted

I am personally different in my thinking to Tories. I don't agree with them, but still have to accept their leadership.

That I understand.

Don't really know what to say to this

You should see my Yes, Minister quote

Aren't you Greek though? Greek ideas are completely intertwined in Europe. Eg: Plato, Aristotle, Democracy, etc.

She is Greek.

Are 'Greek ideas' only intertwined in Europe?

 

[Montalban]

Double post

 

[Montalban]

As to national identity the Scots compete independently on the international statge, in Football (soccer), at the Commonwealth games, in Rugby, etc.

 

[underheaven]

Although there never was a God we have killed off our greatest ideal and now must cope without it. Perhaps we will have to substitute God for something else to appease our psychological need that lead us to belief in God in the first place. Even though there is no God, perhaps we should aspire to become of the incarnation of the ideal that we once held, to make humankind (or its evolution) the loving power that the universe lacks. If that is too much to ask then we should become messengers of the ideal; angels you could say.

I'm not saying that this is Nietzsche's understanding though.



Why don't you like Europe?



Europe in general is democratic. The EU will become democratic in time once the general public accepts it more.



I don't know what they are XD

Yes those who 'kill' off God tend to suffer greatly for it as Neitzche did,and all those who are
unfortunate enough to do the same. He went mad as I recall .Those who 'kill' off God tend to
have societies which tend to rot,and their 'fruits' come to nothing in the end. And what do you
put the intelligence and order in the many billions of universe down to, if not an intelligence,which
we cannot as yet in spite of all the posturing of many atheists like Dawkins and co?

Greater minds cannot deny God,only mediocre ones do that .
Neitzche fell into the trap that materialists always fall into,because they are trapped in their lower
senses which for them becomes the only reality. An intelligence beyond them, having created a programmed universe,does not let them enter into the 'higher realms' by material means. He keeps out those incapable of LOVE[ lust is not love] by screening .. . He did that by demanding that we follow the path of FAITH ,HOPE ,LOVE [not lust],and that we can only go by this path,and through Him.
It is the path of evolution, of the soul, towards it's original destination ,with it's Creator.

I remember my true conciousness started when a series of doctors denied that I had an illness,because none of them had studied it in their medical school or journals. But I had, and it took a more developed mind to recognise it,and treat it .Limited minds are just that ,and Neitzche had a lower limited mind. That is, they deny what they are incapable of knowing.
Although I am a believer,I think many Christians limit themselves to belief ,and God is off all things, rational. It is happening though .The atheists now need to catch up on their ignorance about the real purpose of religion.

 

[Genersis]

...
Greater minds cannot deny God,only mediocre ones do that .
Neitzche fell into the trap that materialists always fall into,because they are trapped in their lower
senses which for them becomes the only reality. An intelligence beyond them, having created a programmed universe,does not let them enter into the 'higher realms' by material means. He keeps out those incapable of LOVE[ lust is not love] by screening .. . He did that by demanding that we follow the path of FAITH ,HOPE ,LOVE [not lust],and that we can only go by this path,and through Him.
It is the path of evolution, of the soul, towards it's original destination ,with it's Creator.

I remember my true conciousness started when a series of doctors denied that I had an illness,because none of them had studied it in their medical school or journals. But I had, and it took a more developed mind to recognise it,and treat it .Limited minds are just that ,and Neitzche had a lower limited mind. That is, they deny what they are incapable of knowing.
Although I am a believer,I think many Christians limit themselves to belief ,and God is off all things, rational. It is happening though .The atheists now need to catch up on their ignorance about the real purpose of religion.

"Ignorance" is a word ill used by someone as condescending and overgeneralising as you were in your post.

At least try to word your religion's followers superiority a little more kindly in future.

 

[Montalban]

"Ignorance" is a word ill used by someone as condescending and overgeneralising as you were in your post.

At least try to word your religion's followers superiority a little more kindly in future.

So the conversation should be brought down to a lower level?

 

[Phileas]

Scottish independence seems alright to me. However I think a better solution for all the UK would be to maintain the union, but jettison London and the home counties.

 

[Genersis]

So the conversation should be brought down to a lower level?

No.
I was only suggesting he try and be a bit more polite.
Sorry if that drags the conversation down.

 

[Paradoxum]

300 years isn't so long in the scheme of Britain. However you took it for granted in the way you worded your comment - which I replied to

300 year is a long time in the minds of many people though. Maybe I do take Scotland for granted, but only in the same way I take my friends for granted. I don't expect them to betray me if they have only known me for 2 years, which isn't alot compared to my 21 years of life.

Because at the time there were non-English in the (British) Royal Navy - again another case of you taking it for granted

You didn't say that the phrase belonged to the British Navy.

She is Greek.

Are 'Greek ideas' only intertwined in Europe?

They have been a part of Europe longer than anywhere else wouldn't you say? Plus Greece in in Europe and have the same sort of values (as far as I know). If Turkey can be European, Greece definitely is.

Yes those who 'kill' off God tend to suffer greatly for it as Neitzche did,and all those who are unfortunate enough to do the same. He went mad as I recall.

Well I'm not sure that's true. I mean it is true that Nietzsche went mad, but many atheists live good lives. I am currently suffering as a consequences of my very slow loss of faith because God was my life for a long time, but I expect I will give over this in a few years.

Those who 'kill' off God tend to
have societies which tend to rot,and their 'fruits' come to nothing in the end.

But as long as we keep our secular laws there wont be any difference.

And what do you
put the intelligence and order in the many billions of universe down to, if not an intelligence,which
we cannot as yet in spite of all the posturing of many atheists like Dawkins and co?

Well the best hope for explaining this is that there are many universes. And/or perhaps the laws we have flow naturally from some basic and necessary logic and mathematics.

Greater minds cannot deny God,only mediocre ones do that .

Well that isn't true. There are both intelligent and well informed people on both sides of the discussion. I'm not sure exactly what makes someone religious or not.

Neitzche fell into the trap that materialists always fall into,because they are trapped in their lower
senses which for them becomes the only reality. An intelligence beyond them, having created a programmed universe,does not let them enter into the 'higher realms' by material means. He keeps out those incapable of LOVE[ lust is not love] by screening .. . He did that by demanding that we follow the path of FAITH ,HOPE ,LOVE [not lust],and that we can only go by this path,and through Him.
It is the path of evolution, of the soul, towards it's original destination ,with it's Creator.

Well I like the idea of living by love, having hope for the future, and maybe even having faith when necessary. I don't mean faith has to be religious though.

I remember my true conciousness started when a series of doctors denied that I had an illness,because none of them had studied it in their medical school or journals. But I had, and it took a more developed mind to recognise it,and treat it .Limited minds are just that ,and Neitzche had a lower limited mind. That is, they deny what they are incapable of knowing.
Although I am a believer,I think many Christians limit themselves to belief ,and God is off all things, rational. It is happening though .The atheists now need to catch up on their ignorance about the real purpose of religion.

Well maybe you are right and God is real.

 

[theFijian]

Hi,

How do you feel about the SNP pushing for Scottish Independence from the UK? Personally it feels like bit of a betrayal to me. Breaking up our country, and for what? To be absorbed into the EU eventually anyway. I understand that the Scottish are proud of their Scottish-ness, but why can't the be proud while being in the UK? I have no problem being English, British and European.

Anyway, here's a news article about Scotland moving closer politically to Scandinavia: Bye, bye England? SNP plans closer Scandinavian ties after independence - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Have a nice day

It's a terrible idea. The public sector is far too bloated in Scotland and with inherent mismanagement will drag the country down into Ireland and Greece levels of indebtedness.