Scottish Independence

[Paradoxum]

I think I would be ok with Scottish independence once the EU matures and becomes a political and economic union. At that point we would still remain united under the EU but still have room for minor differences in the way to run the state. Until then I think our unity is still under threat from Euro-sceptics.

 

[GeminiMoon]

I am only writing here for the sake of Truth. I believe that at judgement we will be asked among
other things,why we lived all our lives in lies and ignorance.This is particularly true of English
middle and upper classes,with whom I as an Irish Scot have nothing in common except ,a forced
on us language.
In 1707 when the so called Union of the Crowns took place it was against the desire of the
overwhelming [95 %] majority of Scottish people .
In 1745 the last freedom battle took place at Culloden,and the independence movement was
finally defeated .There is monument in the open air to this terrrible slaughter. But they
[[the English were not finished with the Scots. The Butcher ,the duke of cumberland,sent
out a decree that every boy ,man of 15/16 or more who had survived ,was to be put to the
sword,and they were.
Later the English decided that they wanted the profitable sheep farming business,so they burned
down the houses of all those whose land they wanted. The luckier ones were able to get onto
boats going to the States or Canada with their very few belongings,but the others were forced
onto barren rocks,where many of course died. They were made to feel by these 'great and good
English 'and their lackies,[ border scots mainly] that they had made God angry,and so it was their fault. Some Scots have long memories,passed from generation to generation, of the horrors that happened to their peoples .For them ,who came from loving supportive communities,where wealth was more shared
as Jesus woud have it, it was doubly terrible ,because the ones who took their place were greedy
money grubbers, ruthless snobs[for no reason except ignorance] who had no loyalty to any higher purpose of love.
So those who know the price of everything ,and the value of nothing ,would not begin to understand
the love of tribal peoples for each other,and their true worship of God,without all the 'ritual' and money .

Okay, would you please stop babbling on about things that happens centuries ago. It has nothing to do with the present situation. Do you have any knowledge of the present moment? If so, then base your argument on that, not irrelevant facts about History. Oh and Sheep farming really? You are going to get caught up on Sheep farming. Oh my life.
P.s I find your perception of the English people based on a few wealthy and power hungry people throughout history to be very insulting.

They are given special treatment because they are special cases. Of course, English policy should not be dictated from Holyrood, but neither should Scottish policy be dictated from London. What motivation does a conservative government have to do anything good for Scotland, where they never win any votes anyway? Why would the 50 million people of England vote in measures that would be good for the 5 million Scots?

There is no more reason an independent Scotland would be a disaster than there would be for Norway, or Sweden, or Denmark to be. I believe Scotland would try and base their economy and society on those nations. The important thing would be for the transition to be gradual but purposeful. The most dangerous thing an independent Scottish government could do would be to make a clean and instant break with Westminster, which would risk throwing the entire country into chaos.

Excuse me, but how exactly are the Scottish special cases? They are the same as everyone else. I am in favour of some autonomy for Scotland, but the more independence we give to them, the more disunity it causes. I would like to see more power given to local councils, but I wouldn't call for regional independence. Devolution has created a false illusion that independence would work. But devolution still relies on the rest of the UK. And actually, Conservatives won 1 seat on Scotland. We can't ignore the demands of a minority and in the UK as a whole, the desires of the many defeat that of the minority. What's good for 50 million is good for the other 5 million maybe. Scotland have benefited from having the Conservatives in power. They still got their beloved SNP in the assembly, so be happy with that.

 

[Cromulent]

Why should London have control over Cornwall? Why don't we just break up the country into small tribes because times were better back then... weren't they?

5 million people is hardly a tribe. There is a certain scale where independence just becomes ridiculous, but it's far below 5 million people. Different regions benefit from different styles of government. Ireland and Germany, for example, have completely different economies, so it is crazy for the two countries to have the same tax rate imposed on them.

My thinking is that unity is better than division. I don't like having a conservative government, but I'm not allowed to be a country to myself.

There aren't five million of you though. And there's not a history of the conservative party oppressing the lib dems. You shouldn't underestimate how high feelings still run in Scotland over their historical treatment at the hands of the English.

 

[Mr Dave]

There aren't five million of you though. And there's not a history of the conservative party oppressing the lib dems. You shouldn't underestimate how high feelings still run in Scotland over their historical treatment at the hands of the English.

All the Scots I know (which I'm aware doesn't account for all Scots) are strongly opposed to independence and think Salmond's an idiot.

 

[GeminiMoon]

5 million people is hardly a tribe. There is a certain scale where independence just becomes ridiculous, but it's far below 5 million people. Different regions benefit from different styles of government. Ireland and Germany, for example, have completely different economies, so it is crazy for the two countries to have the same tax rate imposed on them.



There aren't five million of you though. And there's not a history of the conservative party oppressing the lib dems. You shouldn't underestimate how high feelings still run in Scotland over their historical treatment at the hands of the English.

Who says you get to decide what the population should be before you can be considered a country? Don't for get the around about 1,000,000 Scottish people who now live in England. Ireland has a different economy, yeah and look how that messed up recently.

Let's also not forget the many times in History when Scotland was about to invade England. Lets not forget the times when Scotland made alliances with France and went to war with us. Scotland are not totally historically innocent, but I don't really care about things that happens centuries ago. What matters is the present day. Stop using History as an excuse.

 

[GeminiMoon]

All the Scots I know (which I'm aware doesn't account for all Scots) are strongly opposed to independence and think Salmond's an idiot.

I found that a lot of Scottish people are against independence aswell. I don't think the Scots are stupid enough to do something like that.

 

[Celtic D]

All the Scots I know (which I'm aware doesn't account for all Scots) are strongly opposed to independence and think Salmond's an idiot.

Don't know who you've been talking to!!!

And if that were the case I don't think the SNP would have won a second term with an even more convincing win than the first time round, do you???

 

[Celtic D]

I found that a lot of Scottish people are against independence aswell. I don't think the Scots are stupid enough to do something like that.

If that were the case the SNP would not have had an even more convincing win second time round.

No, its the English who stand to loose if we were to become independant - if that were not the case England would have let us become independant long ago.

 

[GeminiMoon]

If that were the case the SNP would not have had an even more convincing win second time round.

No, its the English who stand to loose if we were to become independant - if that were not the case England would have let us become independant long ago.

The only thing we have to lose is 5 million Scottish people. We have around 60 million people in the UK. I think we'd do pretty well with less responsibility.

 

[Celtic D]

Okay, would you please stop babbling on about things that happens centuries ago. It has nothing to do with the present situation. Do you have any knowledge of the present moment? If so, then base your argument on that, not irrelevant facts about History. Oh and Sheep farming really? You are going to get caught up on Sheep farming. Oh my life.
P.s I find your perception of the English people based on a few wealthy and power hungry people throughout history to be very insulting.



Excuse me, but how exactly are the Scottish special cases? They are the same as everyone else. I am in favour of some autonomy for Scotland, but the more independence we give to them, the more disunity it causes. I would like to see more power given to local councils, but I wouldn't call for regional independence. Devolution has created a false illusion that independence would work. But devolution still relies on the rest of the UK. And actually, Conservatives won 1 seat on Scotland. We can't ignore the demands of a minority and in the UK as a whole, the desires of the many defeat that of the minority. What's good for 50 million is good for the other 5 million maybe. Scotland have benefited from having the Conservatives in power. They still got their beloved SNP in the assembly, so be happy with that.

Excuse me, you don't like the tone of other people in this thread do you not, well news flash, I don't like your tone either.

"we give them" - what makes you think you are special? You are not an anybody to give us anything - we are a country in our own right!!!

 

[Celtic D]

The only thing we have to lose is 5 million Scottish people. We have around 60 million people in the UK. I think we'd do pretty well with less responsibility.

Excuse me - the UK as it stands is NOT England, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so stop talking as if the UK is an English autonomy!!!

 

[Celtic D]

I found that a lot of Scottish people are against independence aswell. I don't think the Scots are stupid enough to do something like that.

Oh and on what basis do you make that claim, please provide evidence - Thanks

 

[Cromulent]

Okay, would you please stop babbling on about things that happens centuries ago. It has nothing to do with the present situation. Do you have any knowledge of the present moment? If so, then base your argument on that, not irrelevant facts about History. Oh and Sheep farming really? You are going to get caught up on Sheep farming. Oh my life.
P.s I find your perception of the English people based on a few wealthy and power hungry people throughout history to be very insulting.

It's not "just" sheep farming, any more than the Irish famine was "just" potatoes. People died because of English greed.

I'm not judging current English people on what their ancestors did in the past, but nations have long memories. Even if the current Westminster government would never do something like that again, it still rankles for many Scots that they once did.

Excuse me, but how exactly are the Scottish special cases? They are the same as everyone else. I am in favour of some autonomy for Scotland, but the more independence we give to them, the more disunity it causes. I would like to see more power given to local councils, but I wouldn't call for regional independence.

The Scots are historically a different nation to England. They have their own language, their own culture, music, stories, and worldview. They should have the right to self-determination. Unity for unity's sake isn't something the fate of nations should be decided upon.

Devolution has created a false illusion that independence would work. But devolution still relies on the rest of the UK. And actually, Conservatives won 1 seat on Scotland. We can't ignore the demands of a minority and in the UK as a whole, the desires of the many defeat that of the minority. What's good for 50 million is good for the other 5 million maybe. Scotland have benefited from having the Conservatives in power. They still got their beloved SNP in the assembly, so be happy with that.

Independence could well work. Scotland is still sitting on large reserves of oil, has the greatest potential for renewable energy in Europe, and in a few years, might also be in a prime position on trade routes to Russia and the Far East, if the North-East passage becomes ice free.

Think of it this way, would you be happy to see England ruled from Berlin or Paris? Why not? Most of the arguments you would put forward could also be applied to Scottish Independence.

All the Scots I know (which I'm aware doesn't account for all Scots) are strongly opposed to independence and think Salmond's an idiot.

Many Scots do, but as Celtic D said, the election results show that that's not a universal position.

(Also, I think Salmond is a bit of an idiot as well, he's focussed on gaining independence far more than how to make Scotland work as a country if it ever happens, but one man is not the same as the concept of Scottish Independence.)

Who says you get to decide what the population should be before you can be considered a country? Don't for get the around about 1,000,000 Scottish people who now live in England. Ireland has a different economy, yeah and look how that messed up recently.

Nobody, but look at this list: List of countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iceland, Montenegro, Cyprus, Estonia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Latvia, Jamaica, Mongolia, Albania, Uruguay, Armenia, Bosnia, Lebanon, Croatia, New Zealand, the Republic of Ireland... Just a small sample of the countries with a population less than that of Scotland. Most of them clearly work as countries. Should Mongolia let themselves be ruled from Beijing? Bosnia, Slovenia and Croatia go back to being part of Yugoslavia? Estonia and Latvia take their orders from Moscow?

Ireland's economy has little to do with the size of the country, and everything to do with stupid and greedy choices made by our government and businessmen. We could use Norway, or Sweden, or Belgium, or Switzerland, if you prefer.

Let's also not forget the many times in History when Scotland was about to invade England. Lets not forget the times when Scotland made alliances with France and went to war with us. Scotland are not totally historically innocent, but I don't really care about things that happens centuries ago. What matters is the present day. Stop using History as an excuse.

Why wouldn't you accept direct rule from Berlin over the UK? The Germans are richer, more efficient, and have a higher quality of life than the UK. In practical and economic terms it would probably make sense. You'd be basing your decision on history as well.

Also, people haven't been claiming that Scotland was totally historically innocent, just that it is historically different.

 

[Cromulent]

The only thing we have to lose is 5 million Scottish people. We have around 60 million people in the UK. I think we'd do pretty well with less responsibility.

You have huge energy reserves, a highly educated workforce, specialised industry and potential future pole position for the North East Passage to lose. Scotland is a net financial contributor to the UK economy, don't forget.

 

[underheaven]

Okay, would you please stop babbling on about things that happens centuries ago. It has nothing to do with the present situation. Do you have any knowledge of the present moment? If so, then base your argument on that, not irrelevant facts about History. Oh and Sheep farming really? You are going to get caught up on Sheep farming. Oh my life.
P.s I find your perception of the English people based on a few wealthy and power hungry people throughout history to be very insulting.



Excuse me, but how exactly are the Scottish special cases? They are the same as everyone else. I am in favour of some autonomy for Scotland, but the more independence we give to them, the more disunity it causes. I would like to see more power given to local councils, but I wouldn't call for regional independence. Devolution has created a false illusion that independence would work. But devolution still relies on the rest of the UK. And actually, Conservatives won 1 seat on Scotland. We can't ignore the demands of a minority and in the UK as a whole, the desires of the many defeat that of the minority. What's good for 50 million is good for the other 5 million maybe. Scotland have benefited from having the Conservatives in power. They still got their beloved SNP in the assembly, so be happy with that.

The whole point for the illiterate in history ,is that they have a different history ,and a differentpoint of view andcare about different things.
I do not adddress this to you but this is an American site.
They are fed up with certain English arrogants,like on this site,and want their own independent media above all.
Who is the BBC to say that Scotland cannot have her own television broadcasting company from Scotland,paid by Scottish licencees?
Why should you decide, what they can and cannot make in their own country ?

Oh yes Ignore history, as you have always done. And we are talking about Modern English people ,not just a few,but the majority,who know nothing about their true history. You like to play History written to suit you.Are you not so proud of what makes you support your royalty,their long line of succession etc .etc Or is it that you only want to remember what suits you ?
In order to share a United Kingdom,, it must be as equals,who know their history.You see in the end we have nothing to talk about, no shared 'battles' against an enemy which binds ,because you were always the enemy. The French and Scots were great friends because they fought together to get rid of the English.The French did ,but Scotand was beaten.
Frankly I would not care very much, one way or other ,but your attitude has added to my opinion,that ,the sooner the better.

 

[Celtic D]

The whole point for the illiterate in history ,is that they have a different history ,and a different
point of view,and care about different things.
I do not adddress this to you but this is an American site. They are fed up with certain English arrogants,like on this site,and want their own independent media above all. Who is the BBC to
say that Scotland cannot have her own television broadcasting company from Scotland,paid
by Scottish licencees.Why should you decide, what they can and cannot make in their own country ?
Oh yes Ignore history as you have always done.
Frankly I would not care very much, one way or other ,but your attitude has added to
my certainty, that the sooner the better .

Actually if you lived here you would know Scotland does have its own independent media.

If you are so passionate about our country why are you not living in it

 

[GeminiMoon]

Excuse me - the UK as it stands is NOT England, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so stop talking as if the UK is an English autonomy!!!

Pardon me, I meant England, not UK. Oops. You can untwist your knickers now.

 

[GeminiMoon]

Oh and on what basis do you make that claim, please provide evidence - Thanks

I base it from the views of all the Scottish people I know, which is a lot.

The whole point for the illiterate in history ,is that they have a different history ,and a differentpoint of view andcare about different things.
I do not adddress this to you but this is an American site.
They are fed up with certain English arrogants,like on this site,and want their own independent media above all.
Who is the BBC to say that Scotland cannot have her own television broadcasting company from Scotland,paid by Scottish licencees?
Why should you decide, what they can and cannot make in their own country ?

Oh yes Ignore history, as you have always done. And we are talking about Modern English people ,not just a few,but the majority,who know nothing about their true history. You like to play History written to suit you.Are you not so proud of what makes you support your royalty,their long line of succession etc .etc Or is it that you only want to remember what suits you ?
In order to share a United Kingdom,, it must be as equals,who know their history.You see in the end we have nothing to talk about, no shared 'battles' against an enemy which binds ,because you were always the enemy. The French and Scots were great friends because they fought together to get rid of the English.The French did ,but Scotand was beaten.
Frankly I would not care very much, one way or other ,but your attitude has added to my opinion,that ,the sooner the better.

I know pretty much about my own History thanks. I'm a History student as it happens. I don't agree with the Royal family, but they do me no harm. They only cost about 60P per person per year. Hardly going to make anyone poor.

Scotland has their own BBC moron. Looks to me like you need to go read up on Scotland first. Get rid of the English? The Scottish continuously tried to invade our borders! Not that i'm a fan of Cromwell, but he fought to keep the scots from invading us with france.
Scotland has it's own language that is spoken by a small minority. They were speaking english long before the Union. Get it right.

 

[lismore]

Scotland has their own BBC moron.

Not nice.

 

[GeminiMoon]

Not nice.

The person I was referring too is always expressing anti-englishness, so pardon me for not wishing to be civil towards them.