Scientists find first bird beak.

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Oh? Germany seems to have been gung ho on education in the ww2 era. Greece was quite intellectually oriented I think. Britain was not exactly a slouch on learning when the sun never set on her empire...etc.

The real lessons in history are that when a people leave God or persecute His people too much...the boom gets lowered. Ka pow.

Wishful thinking. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and that he led his country into war with world dominating ideologies thinking his God would back him up, is likely the reason for their downfall, not that they're lacking in God thinking. Germany has long been admired for their engineering and technological advantage, and in fact, both the USA and Russia have the Germans to thank for much of their Millitary, Jet and Rocket advancements post WW2. Why was the fruits of Germany's Scientists of such value if it was God that matters?

Pretty much all civilisations today can thank Greece for their many contributions, especially if you live in a democracy - that's certainly something your theology didn't get right... That the humanist and educated minority of those civilisations didn't single-handedly influence the governments of their time enough to conquer-proof them is no reason to discount the fact that they enjoyed a long and prosperous reign at the forefront of civilisation.

All that aside, the comment was that religion has historically neutered civilizations - can you point to an instance where technological advancement (and education, etc.) has neutered a civilisation?

I don't recall Jesus asking us to be all up on the fables of man.

Well, nice of you to agree with me on that point then - It's as absurd as the reverse is to us.

So? At Babel, there were many of these or the beginnings of these religions. That does not save man. Nor does his own wisdom (with some demonic aid) of science.

More wishful thinking. There's a myriad of religions that predate yours by quite a few thousand years - Monotheism was almost unheard of prior to zoroastrianism. The only thing that we can demonstrate as giving us a longer life and better odds of survival (i.e. saves humans), is science and the scientific method, no matter what religious background you have.

If they start by admitting they have no clue what they are talking about we could talk.

Well, the problem is that they do have a clue. not on everything because that isn't the claim, but on many, many more things than any religion does. This is demonstrable too. That you claim to know everything, doesn't actually make it so.

Nothing you offered deals with either nature on earth in the distant past, nor the nature of time in the far universe. Revisit your claim you offered something.

lol! wishing it doesn't make it so. You have to demonstrate it.

Not at all. You simply run it all through the lenses of earth physics. The billions of years claim requires time to exist out there as it does here exactly. You have no clue that is the case. None. Your billions of years chants are empty of value, and meaning. Nothing more than a religious mantra and statement of belief.

I've already given you evidence why you're wrong and you literally have nothing to refute it aside your well-worn "Nuh-uh!" - I know this will never change because you're locked into your line of faulty reasoning and won't turn back now... a pity really.

No connection between your dream time and electronics. Sorry.

lol! Another "Nuh-uh!"

We could call it the fishbowl method! It works fine IN THE FISHBOWL!

lol! "Nuh-uh!" times TWO!!!

No evidence contradicts my beliefs at all. Not a sliver or scintilla.

ALL the evidence contradicts your belief. Light from galaxies tens of billions of years ago and tens of billions of light years away, Radiometric Dating up to 4.3 billion years for earth, radiocarbon dating of organic matter up to 54,000 years, 800,000 years of continuous ice core layers, 52,800 years of lake varves, dendrochronology dating back to 11,000 years somehow surviving a flood that inundated the entire world destroying everyone & everything, etc. Each and every one of these dating methods have been and are continuously revalidated and independently confirmed all the time.

Your claim is hilariously deluded!

There goes that inevitable mantra again...it betrays your religion! I mean I can see you guys coming like glow in the dark dolls. What is funny is that you think you are incognito! Ha.

lol! I'm right here. You head to your church on the weekend and worship while I kick back & watch netflix after a good long sleep in.

It can't begin to, so don't make it sound like it just can't be bothered!!

That is like a mouse saying it would pound out a herd of elephants if it wasn't busy.

I agree it can't - as explained ad-nauseum, Science and Religion deal with very different things - Science deals with reality and religion deals with whatever else it wants to.

Science devotees really should be fined for even using that word reality. Science invented it's own fables and fantasies and called them reality. We need a new word.

Nope, it's perfectly applicable. I'd ask you to point out the evidence that disproves the conclusions reached, but we'll just be getting another long-winded preach about your imaginative justifications that have no substance, so I won't bother.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

It is exactly a belief system.

Nope! Prove it.

You believe in common ancestors despite the fact you don't have a single solitary one for any claimed split on any evolutionary tree. That's a belief, pure and simple not supported by any evidence at all.

No I don't. I accept it as the best current explanation for the diversity of life on this planet. The evidence in support of it is well-established, including transitional fossils of many organisms, the genetic evidence in our collective DNA and the practical & useful application of the Theory of Evolution in medicine and Agriculture to name just a few - the application throughout humanity is infathomable despite all your protestations. If you have any evidence for your position, then perhaps we can consider it, but you don't. Your entire argument revolves around not accepting the mountains of evidence we have - I find that an untenable position.

Worse yet, you use this belief in non-existent common ancestors to link one form to another. Without which there is no link at all.

Again, no. The evidence we have at hand indicates this as the most plausible reason, that's it! If evidence comes in tomorrow that refutes all of what we know and that your God is the true reason for all existence, then that'll be the working hypothesis until evidence indicates otherwise.

And 96% of cosmology is based on pure belief with no evidence at all.....

which is still 4% more evidence than your position has.

Don't confuse evolution with actual science.

No, no, I'm not. Evolution is a subset of findings from actual science that has practical application.

 

[dad]

Wishful thinking. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and that he led his country into war with world dominating ideologies thinking his God would back him up, is likely the reason for their downfall, not that they're lacking in God thinking. Germany has long been admired for their engineering and technological advantage, and in fact, both the USA and Russia have the Germans to thank for much of their Millitary, Jet and Rocket advancements post WW2. Why was the fruits of Germany's Scientists of such value if it was God that matters?

Didn't Hitler persecute Christians? You think powers that be have a carte blanche for unlimited time to do such evil?

As for their contributions to womd and military weapons...well, not sure if you are celebrating that? They did make an impact on the world...yes.

Seems to me that the new kids on the block after Hitler Germany sent missionaries all over the place, printed bibles like crazy and etc etc. Maybe history does have a hand behind it?

Pretty much all civilisations today can thank Greece for their many contributions, especially if you live in a democracy - that's certainly something your theology didn't get right... That the humanist and educated minority of those civilisations didn't single-handedly influence the governments of their time enough to conquer-proof them is no reason to discount the fact that they enjoyed a long and prosperous reign at the forefront of civilisation.

Such contributions are mentioned in prophesy. In fact the final ruler is a culmination of the previous major powers, with traits of them all.

All that aside, the comment was that religion has historically neutered civilizations - can you point to an instance where technological advancement (and education, etc.) has neutered a civilisation?

It is not that the science neutered them. But it sure didn't save them!

Mankind in general makes 'progress' in wickedness.

More wishful thinking. There's a myriad of religions that predate yours by quite a few thousand years - Monotheism was almost unheard of prior to zoroastrianism. The only thing that we can demonstrate as giving us a longer life and better odds of survival (i.e. saves humans), is science and the scientific method, no matter what religious background you have.

Noah lived more than nine and a half centuries. Some progress!

No religion predates mine. Mine goes to creation and the first man!

I've already given you evidence why you're wrong

Pointing out how time unfolds in the fishbowl is not even addressing the issue. (of whether time is the same outside it).

Light from galaxies tens of billions of years ago and tens of billions of light years away,

The only way they would be that old is if time existed out there all the way as it does here. Prove it, or face the fact that your claimed time is a joke.

Radiometric Dating up to 4.3 billion years for earth,

Decay is a feature of this present nature only as far as we know. Prove this nature existed or you can't use it's decay!!!!!!!!!!!

radiocarbon dating of organic matter up to 54,000 years, 800,000 years of continuous ice core layers, 52,800 years of lake varves,

Unless all formed/laid down in this nature there is no value to your religion.

dendrochronology dating back to 11,000 years somehow surviving a flood that inundated the entire world destroying everyone & everything, etc.

The only thing that matters with tree rings is what nature they grew in. You merely assume they all grew in this nature and assign dates accordingly. Ridiculous!

lol! I'm right here. You head to your church on the weekend and worship while I kick back & watch netflix after a good long sleep in.

I am not limited to enjoying movies on Netflix, as I can access newer ones as well as ones they don't carry. I don't do church either. If you want to compare sleep times to figure out whose religion is best, I guess we could do that...

I suspect it is the ol 'don't turn into a Christian, you will be so restricted and not free..' voice in the head, that comes from the prince of bondage that you are hearing. Don't believe a word of it, the truth actually sets us free free free.

I agree it can't - as explained ad-nauseum, Science and Religion deal with very different things - Science deals with reality and religion deals with whatever else it wants to.

Science is not familiar with reality and has a mandate from hell to get people to avoid it at any cost.

 

[dmmesdale]

Scientists find the first bird beak, right under their noses

YaleNews
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By Jim Shelton
may 2, 2018
Researchers have pieced together the three-dimensional skull of an iconic, toothed bird that represents a pivotal moment in the transition from dinosaurs to modern-day birds.

Ichthyornis dispar holds a key position in the evolutionary trail that leads from dinosaurian species to today’s avians. It lived nearly 100 million years ago in North America, looked something like a toothy seabird, and drew the attention of such famous naturalists as Yale’s O.C. Marsh (who first named and described it) and Charles Darwin.

Yet despite the existence of partial specimens of Ichthyornis dispar, there has been no significant new skull material beyond the fragmentary remains first found in the 1870s. Now, a Yale-led team reports on new specimens with three-dimensional cranial remains — including one example of a complete skull and two previously overlooked cranial elements that were part of the original specimen at Yale — that reveal new details about one of the most striking transformations in evolutionary history.

“Right under our noses this whole time was an amazing, transitional bird,” said Yale paleontologist Bhart-Anjan Bhullar, principal investigator of a study published in the journal Nature. “It has a modern-looking brain along with a remarkably dinosaurian jaw muscle configuration.”

Perhaps most interesting of all, Bhullar said, is that Ichthyornis dispar shows us what the bird beak looked like as it first appeared in nature.

At its origin, the beak was a precision grasping mechanism that served as a surrogate hand as the hands transformed into wings.

bhart-anjan bhullar

“The first beak was a horn-covered pincer tip at the end of the jaw,” said Bhullar, who is an assistant professor and assistant curator in geology and geophysics. “The remainder of the jaw was filled with teeth. At its origin, the beak was a precision grasping mechanism that served as a surrogate hand as the hands transformed into wings.”

The research team conducted its analysis using CT-scan technology, combined with specimens from the Yale Peabody Museum of Natural History; the Sternberg Museum of Natural History in Hays, Kan.; the Alabama Museum of Natural History; the University of Kansas Biodiversity Institute; and the Black Hills Institute of Geological Research.

Co-lead authors of the new study are Daniel Field of the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath and Michael Hanson of Yale. Co-authors are David Burnham of the University of Kansas, Laura Wilson and Kristopher Super of Fort Hays State University, Dana Ehret of the Alabama Museum of Natural History, and Jun Ebersole of the McWane Science Center.

“The fossil record provides our only direct evidence of the evolutionary transformations that have given rise to modern forms,” said Field. “This extraordinary new specimen reveals the surprisingly late retention of dinosaur-like features in the skull of Ichthyornis — one of the closest-known relatives of modern birds from the Age of Reptiles.”

The researchers said their findings offer new insight into how modern birds’ skulls eventually formed. Along with its transitional beak, Ichthyornis dispar had a brain similar to modern birds but a temporal region of the skull that was strikingly like that of a dinosaur — indicating that during the evolution of birds, the brain transformed first while the remainder of the skull remained more primitive and dinosaur-like.

“Ichthyornis would have looked very similar to today’s seabirds, probably very much like a gull or tern,” said Hanson. “The teeth probably would not have been visible unless the mouth was open but covered with some sort of lip-like, extra-oral tissue.”

In recent years Bhullar’s lab has produced a large body of research on various aspects of vertebrate skulls, often zeroing in on the origins of the avian beak. “Each new discovery has reinforced our previous conclusions. The skull of Ichthyornis even substantiates our molecular finding that the beak and palate are patterned by the same genes,” Bhullar said. “The story of the evolution of birds, the most species-rich group of vertebrates on land, is one of the most important in all of history. It is, after all, still the age of dinosaurs.”

The research was supported, in part, by Yale University, the Yale Peabody Museum of Natural History, the University of Bath, the Alexander Wetmore Memorial Research Award, the Stephen J. Gould Award, and grants from the National Science Foundation, the Yale Institute for Biospheric Studies, the Evolving Earth Foundation, and the Frank M. Chapman Memorial Fund.

Did it all come with assembly instructions and lineage attached or did they gin all that up after the fact?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Didn't Hitler persecute Christians? You think powers that be have a carte blanche for unlimited time to do such evil?

Hitler was a Christian persecuting on Jews. Not sure what else you're talking about with the unlimited time thing...

As for their contributions to womd and military weapons...well, not sure if you are celebrating that?

Technology, yes. That religious people and ideology laden governments use them for nefarious purposes is not because of science. Science is just a tool in enabling technology, education and progress.

Seems to me that the new kids on the block after Hitler Germany sent missionaries all over the place, printed bibles like crazy and etc etc. Maybe history does have a hand behind it?

Nope, religious people did that. Do you have any records of government sponsored missionaries?

Such contributions are mentioned in prophesy. In fact the final ruler is a culmination of the previous major powers, with traits of them all.

But that's been the case since before your bible existed. End times have been something that we've allegedly been in since it was first imagined up...

It is not that the science neutered them. But it sure didn't save them!

Well, I disagree. We enjoy all manner of benefits because of science - longer life, better quality of life, larger variety of food and easier agriculture to get it, greater understanding of the universe around us, etc.

Noah lived more than nine and a half centuries. Some progress!

Even If Noah existed, I'm far from convinced he lived anywhere close to that. We certainly know there was no worldwide flood, so there's that you have to get past even if he did exist...

No religion predates mine. Mine goes to creation and the first man!

In your wildest dreams. There was no first man, but instead there was a population of proto-humans that over time evolved to become what we currently have now, so not sure how you can overcome those facts.

Pointing out how time unfolds in the fishbowl is not even addressing the issue. (of whether time is the same outside it)

We see light from outside your conjectured "fishbowl", and if you knew anything of physics, then you'd know the only reason we see that light is because of both that uniformity of time and laws of physics throughout the path of light between us and the celestial objects we observe. Not one or the other, but Both, Both have to be the same out there as it is here. It would literally be impossible to see the light as we see it here otherwise.

The only way they would be that old is if time existed out there all the way as it does here. Prove it, or face the fact that your claimed time is a joke.

As above. Refute that evidence with anything more than "Nuh-Uh!" and we can talk.

Decay is a feature of this present nature only as far as we know. Prove this nature existed or you can't use it's decay!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure I understand, are you saying decay didn't happen and therefore everything was literally created exactly and consistently as if it were bilions of years old because you believe in a trickster God and last Thursdayism, or did the equivalent of what looks like 4.5 billion years of decay occur in the last 6,000-10,000 years - so much decay in so little time in fact that literally the entire earth would've been a nuclear meltdown, resulting in a star-like white hot glow, instant vaporisation of all water and sterilisation of life on this planet?

Unless all formed/laid down in this nature there is no value to your religion.

... because you don't like it? I can understand you not wanting to accept the facts about reality, but reality isn't going away just because you don't like how it disproves your untenable beliefs...

The only thing that matters with tree rings is what nature they grew in. You merely assume they all grew in this nature and assign dates accordingly. Ridiculous!

These would be the trees that lived through that molten earth nuclear meltdown, right? According to your wannabe suppositions, that's the nature they grew in.

Talk about drought tolerant... dang! -_-

I am not limited to enjoying movies on Netflix, as I can access newer ones as well as ones they don't carry. I don't do church either. If you want to compare sleep times to figure out whose religion is best, I guess we could do that...

I suspect it is the ol 'don't turn into a Christian, you will be so restricted and not free..' voice in the head, that comes from the prince of bondage that you are hearing. Don't believe a word of it, the truth actually sets us free free free.

...he says while having to deny reality to protect his deeply held beliefs...

Anyway, the point is I don't have to pray to science, or attend worship establishments to accept the fruits of science - I can't help but notice you're doing the same, accepting the fruits of science even if your worldview is causing you to deny it on the surface.

Science is not familiar with reality and has a mandate from hell to get people to avoid it at any cost.

If only you had evidence to back any of it up, like science has in spades for everything it does...

 

[PsychoSarah]

Did it all come with assembly instructions and lineage attached or did they gin all that up after the fact?

I find it funny when people question all modern fossil assembly when there are fossils like this:

Archaeopteryx

Plus, the entire lower jaw exists for the species in question, Ichthyornis dispar, which is all that would be needed to tell if the organism had a beak. And complete lower jaws are pretty distinct parts of anatomy with no duplicates or similar structures to confuse them with.

 

[dad]

Hitler was a Christian persecuting on Jews. Not sure what else you're talking about with the unlimited time thing...

Technology, yes. That religious people and ideology laden governments use them for nefarious purposes is not because of science. Science is just a tool in enabling technology, education and progress.

Nope, religious people did that. Do you have any records of government sponsored missionaries?

Does tax breaks count?

But that's been the case since before your bible existed. End times have been something that we've allegedly been in since it was first imagined up...

The word of God always existed.

Well, I disagree. We enjoy all manner of benefits because of science - longer life, better quality of life, larger variety of food and easier agriculture to get it, greater understanding of the universe around us, etc.

Nuclear weapons etc.

Even If Noah existed, I'm far from convinced he lived anywhere close to that. We certainly know there was no worldwide flood, so there's that you have to get past even if he did exist...

There was a flood. You only thought you knew different, based on religion.

In your wildest dreams. There was no first man, but instead there was a population of proto-humans that over time evolved to become what we currently have now, so not sure how you can overcome those facts.

You thought this was the thread to recite foolish fables?

We see light from outside your conjectured "fishbowl", and if you knew anything of physics, then you'd know the only reason we see that light is because of both that uniformity of time and laws of physics throughout the path of light between us and the celestial objects we observe. Not one or the other, but Both, Both have to be the same out there as it is here. It would literally be impossible to see the light as we see it here otherwise.

The only reason we see light is uniformity!? Ha. Dream on.

Not sure I understand, are you saying decay didn't happen and therefore everything was literally created exactly and consistently as if it were bilions of years old because you believe in a trickster God and last Thursdayism, or did the equivalent of what looks like 4.5 billion years of decay occur in the last 6,000-10,000 years - so much decay in so little time in fact that literally the entire earth would've been a nuclear meltdown, resulting in a star-like white hot glow, instant vaporisation of all water and sterilisation of life on this planet?

I am asking if the different former nature included the decay we now know. I am not asking if there was a same nature with faster or slower decay!

... because you don't like it? I can understand you not wanting to accept the facts about reality, but reality isn't going away just because you don't like how it disproves your untenable beliefs...

Please refrain from using the word reality, it does not behoove your religion to do so.

These would be the trees that lived through that molten earth nuclear meltdown, right? According to your wannabe suppositions, that's the nature they grew in.

Nuclear meltdown? Explain when and where?

Anyway, the point is I don't have to pray to science, or attend worship establishments to accept the fruits of science -

You need a crowbar to separate it from education, movies, books, etc.

I can't help but notice you're doing the same, accepting the fruits of science even if your worldview is causing you to deny it on the surface.

Baseless pagan false foolish religions demand to be denied. It is the only sane rational thing a man could do.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Does tax breaks count?

Dunno, there's quite a few 501C educational & non-profits promoting atheism and science literacy too - we could go one each if you like?

The word of God always existed.

Prove it. Your God wasn't the first God that had their will written down. many Gods existed and were worshipped by the vast majority of civilisations long before your God was even known of.

Nuclear weapons etc.

If you insist on this route then you must agree with me that not having this technological innovation would have put you at the mercy of other nations that did... am I right?

There was a flood. You only thought you knew different, based on religion.

There's been many, many floods, I never said there wasn't. What i did say is that not only is there no evidence of a worldwide flood, but there's plenty of evidence that goes against the idea.

You thought this was the thread to recite foolish fables?

didn't think you'd be able to overcome those facts...

The only reason we see light is uniformity!? Ha. Dream on.

Yep! didn't think you could refute those facts either.

I am asking if the different former nature included the decay we now know. I am not asking if there was a same nature with faster or slower decay!

You have no idea what you're talking about with respect to physics. If you did, then you'd realise how inane that comment was and wouldn't have let it loose on the internet where everyone can see you making it.

Please refrain from using the word reality, it does not behoove your religion to do so.

No religion for me, thanks! Even if Science were some kind of religion, I'm not wedded to the idea. The fact is, it consistently gives working solutions to real world problems.

Nuclear meltdown? Explain when and where?

Well, for example, for the decay we see in all the materials we can measure radioisotopest in to decay to the levels we see today in a 10,000 year timeframe, would be of the same order as the rate in which we see uranium decay into lead - you know, the stuff that melts nuclear reactors to destruction? so you are literally suggesting that all materials we can measure were releasing energy at uranium style radioactive meltdown levels within the past 10,000 years to give us the measurements we see today.

You need a crowbar to separate it from education, movies, books, etc.

Well, it gives meaningful and consistently useful results in the real world and any society valuing their competitiveness on the world stage will have to include it in their education system lest they be left behind and overtaken economically.

Baseless pagan false foolish religions demand to be denied. It is the only sane rational thing a man could do.

lol! these words 'sane' & 'rational' have never been used so far out of context before...

 

[dad]

Dunno, there's quite a few 501C educational & non-profits promoting atheism and science literacy too - we could go one each if you like?

I suspect your ones would run out pretty quick.

Prove it. Your God wasn't the first God that had their will written down. many Gods existed and were worshipped by the vast majority of civilisations long before your God was even known of.

No. They were all after Babel.

If you insist on this route then you must agree with me that not having this technological innovation would have put you at the mercy of other nations that did... am I right?

If God is on your side no one is ever at the mercy of the wicked. We are simply rulers in training.

There's been many, many floods, I never said there wasn't. What i did say is that not only is there no evidence of a worldwide flood, but there's plenty of evidence that goes against the idea.

No evidence that fits within your religion of so called science.

You have no idea what you're talking about with respect to physics. If you did, then you'd realise how inane that comment was and wouldn't have let it loose on the internet where everyone can see you making it.

I'll one up that last question and state that there probably was not decay in the former state nor will there be decay in the future state.

No religion for me, thanks! Even if Science were some kind of religion, I'm not wedded to the idea. The fact is, it consistently gives working solutions to real world problems.

Problems like how to wipe out humanity?

Well, for example, for the decay we see in all the materials we can measure radioisotopest in to decay to the levels we see today in a 10,000 year timeframe, would be of the same order as the rate in which we see uranium decay into lead - you know, the stuff that melts nuclear reactors to destruction? so you are literally suggesting that all materials we can measure were releasing energy at uranium style radioactive meltdown levels within the past 10,000 years to give us the measurements we see today.

No. I am suggesting that the daughter material was already here (except what was produced by decay in the last 4400 years)!

Well, it gives meaningful and consistently useful results in the real world and any society valuing their competitiveness on the world stage will have to include it in their education system lest they be left behind and overtaken economically.

Really, you think science gives meaning? It might make us a better toilet paper, but...meaning??

lol! these words 'sane' & 'rational' have never been used so far out of context before...

Like you'd know.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I suspect your ones would run out pretty quick.

Not even close. Even the diminuitive quantity of non-believers in America have as many secular support non-profits, let alone all the myriad of international organisations that operate in the rest of the world.

Red Cross
Oxfam
UNICEF
Fred Hollows Foundation
Water Aid
Save The Children
Doctors Without Borders
The Gates Foundation
SHARE (Secular Humanist Aid & Relief Effort)
The Smith Family

Good Causes and Charities

Secular charities - FreeThoughtPedia

Secular Charities • Atheist Girl

Home

Seems to be plenty there... Personally, I donate to the Fred Hollows Foundation, Red Cross and when I can, RSPCA (that last one is an Aussie Animal Welfare org).​

No. They were all after Babel.

lol!

From History of religion - Wikipedia :

"The earliest evidence of religious ideas dates back several hundred thousand years to the Middle and Lower Paleolithic periods. Archaeologists refer to apparent intentional burials of early Homo sapiens from as early as 300,000 years ago as evidence of religious ideas."​

well, that's about 297,000 years before the Tower of Babel... Continuing:

"Pre-pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) Göbekli Tepe, the oldest religious site yet discovered anywhere[5] includes circles of erected massive T-shaped stone pillars, the world's oldest known megaliths [6] decorated with abstract, enigmatic pictograms and carved animal reliefs. The site, near the home place of original wild wheat, was built before the so-called Neolithic Revolution, i.e., the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry around 9000 BCE. But the construction of Göbekli Tepe implies organization of an advanced order not hitherto associated with Paleolithic, PPNA, or PPNB societies. The site, abandoned around the time the first agricultural societies started, is still being excavated and analyzed, and thus might shed light to the significance it had had for the region's older, foraging communities, as well as for the general history of religions."​

so Gobekli Tepe was a religious site practicing something other than your religion around 8,500 years before Babel, then this is about 1800 years before the Tower of Babel:

"The Pyramid Texts from ancient Egypt are the oldest known religious texts in the world, dating to between 2400-2300 BCE.[7][8] Writing played a major role in sustaining organized religion by standardizing religious ideas regardless of time or location."​

seems odd that Pharaohs have an unbroken line of religion and existence leading up to these Pyramid Texts (incidentally right through the time some alleged worldwide flood was supposed to have happened, yet the Pharaohs among many other civilisations that existed around then never seemed to notice it), well before your religion came about - in fact, your religion's texts refer to them in the earlier textual forms of your religion - not sure how Pharaohs were well established in their religion before Moses got to collecting stone tablets atop a mountain... then the oldest religious text of a religion still in practice is the Hindu Vedas. From Timeline of religion - Wikipedia :

"1700–1100 BCE - The oldest of the Hindu Vedas (scriptures), the Rig Veda was composed."​

so, it seems all the evidence available to us suggests you might be mistaken. The Vedas were somewhere up to 1,100 years before Babel...

If God is on your side no one is ever at the mercy of the wicked. We are simply rulers in training.

which God(s) and how do you know? Your government didn't share your optimism.

No evidence that fits within your religion of so called science.

Except all of it. Such things as salt mines hundreds of feet thick, Gooseneck erosion of the Collorado River through the Grand Canyon, Limestone, fossilised windswept sand dunes, fossilised bushland growth (including evidence of periodic forest fires) and even fossilised footprints of gradual lifeforms throughout the layers as if they took hundreds of millions of years to be laid down.

I'll one up that last question and state that there probably was not decay in the former state nor will there be decay in the future state.

assertions without foundation let alone evidence. Again, all the evidence goes against you

Problems like how to wipe out humanity?

trust you to see that as something needing a solution.... What Church is teaching you that?

No. I am suggesting that the daughter material was already here (except what was produced by decay in the last 4400 years)!

As I said, the conditions that lead to the rock formation in the first place preclude that possibility and the radioactive decay required to leave the daughter material we end up finding would be every bit as worse as the radioactive decay that we see when a nuclear power station melts down. It would sterilise all life on the surface given the rocks that leave these measurable daughter materials pretty much consists of most of the earth's crust.

Really, you think science gives meaning? It might make us a better toilet paper, but...meaning??

Well, for some people, Science Does give meaning - the pursuit of knowledge, a new discovery, groundbreaking technology, medical breakthroughs in treatments and medicines, etc.

you don't like these facts, I can tell....

Like you'd know.

lol!

 

[dad]

Not even close. Even the diminuitive quantity of non-believers in America have as many secular support non-profits, let alone all the myriad of international organisations that operate in the rest of the world.

True, non believers do good works. Charity is part of what the bible teaches, so it is commanded. One would hope that they have a proportionate percentage of charities.

That is not what saves them though. (works)

From History of religion - Wikipedia :

"The earliest evidence of religious ideas dates back several hundred thousand years to the Middle and Lower Paleolithic periods. Archaeologists refer to apparent intentional burials of early Homo sapiens from as early as 300,000 years ago as evidence of religious ideas."​

well, that's about 297,000 years before the Tower of Babel... Continuing:

Your dates are belief based and absurd. Now there was some pre flood religion, but we don't know much about that. Of what we know...Hinduism, Buddhism, etc that is all after Babel.

"Pre-pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) Göbekli Tepe, the oldest religious site yet discovered anywhere[5] includes circles of erected massive T-shaped stone pillars, the world's oldest known megaliths [6] decorated with abstract, enigmatic pictograms and carved animal reliefs. The site, near the home place of original wild wheat, was built before the so-called Neolithic Revolution, i.e., the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry around 9000 BCE. But the construction of Göbekli Tepe implies organization of an advanced order not hitherto associated with Paleolithic, PPNA, or PPNB societies. The site, abandoned around the time the first agricultural societies started, is still being excavated and analyzed, and thus might shed light to the significance it had had for the region's older, foraging communities, as well as for the general history of religions."​

so Gobekli Tepe was a religious site practicing something other than your religion around 8,500 years before Babel, then this is about 1800 years before the Tower of Babel:

Nope. Your dates are a joke. They are based on a belief in the present state having also existed, along with it's decay process. Face it. Also, we might ask why some of these places were abandoned that maybe existed very early after the flood. I suspect the new nature may have forced some relocation, new habits etc!

"The Pyramid Texts from ancient Egypt are the oldest known religious texts in the world, dating to between 2400-2300 BCE.[7][8] Writing played a major role in sustaining organized religion by standardizing religious ideas regardless of time or location."​

seems odd that Pharaohs have an unbroken line of religion and existence leading up to these Pyramid Texts (incidentally right through the time some alleged worldwide flood was supposed to have happened, yet the Pharaohs among many other civilisations that existed around then never seemed to notice it), well before your religion came about - in fact, your religion's texts refer to them in the earlier textual forms of your religion - not sure how Pharaohs were well established in their religion before Moses got to collecting stone tablets atop a mountain... then the oldest religious text of a religion still in practice is the Hindu Vedas. From Timeline of religion - Wikipedia

Their line includes spirit beings! You really want to stand behind that? As for the dates you use, they have no value whatsoever in reality and real time.

Since man maybe did not even need to write back before Babel, since all men understood each other, I assume that this is why the ancients started off by pictures and symbols to communicate!!!!!! The evidence mounts.

By the time we had writing, such as the hindu stuff we were very post flood, and even post split (nature change).

which God(s) and how do you know? Your government didn't share your optimism.

I don't share their god!

Except all of it. Such things as salt mines hundreds of feet thick,

Is it news that water belched up from deep below? Could there have been some salt there?

Gooseneck erosion of the Collorado River through the Grand Canyon, Limestone, fossilised windswept sand dunes, fossilised bushland growth (including evidence of periodic forest fires) and even fossilised footprints of gradual lifeforms throughout the layers as if they took hundreds of millions of years to be laid down.

Probably post flood...so??

trust you to see that as something needing a solution.... What Church is teaching you that?

Church of the newspaper net and tv?

As I said, the conditions that lead to the rock formation in the first place preclude that possibility and the radioactive decay required to leave the daughter material we end up finding would be every bit as worse as the radioactive decay that we see when a nuclear power station melts down.

Yes, you actually said that! Ha.

I notice very early man carved HUGE rocks too heavy apparently to be moved even today. Later the rocks seem to get smaller. Looks like somethings changed. Fantastic folds in some mountains also! Makes more sense if the nature/consistency of rock was not the same. You simply view all things as if they transpired in this nature and cook up fishbowl explanations accordingly!

It would sterilise all life on the surface given the rocks that leave these measurable daughter materials pretty much consists of most of the earth's crust.

If the daughter material was ALREADY here and only nature changed so that the isotopes and atoms NOW behaved a different way, what you say is patently wrong and absurd. Totally off base and inapplicable.

Well, for some people, Science Does give meaning - the pursuit of knowledge, a new discovery, groundbreaking technology, medical breakthroughs in treatments and medicines, etc.

Murdering babies, inventing WOMD, pollution, death dealing cars...etc etc etc. Not a bed or roses, that science bush!

 

[AirPo]

Murdering babies, inventing WOMD, pollution, death dealing cars...etc etc etc. Not a bed or roses, that science bush!

Enabling people to post on the internet.

 

[Brightmoon]

(Snip)
Murdering babies, inventing WOMD, pollution, death dealing cars...etc etc etc. Not a bed or roses, that science bush!

saving people from smallpox and polio 2 ( thanks to evolution by the way) yeah, that science is sooo bad - not!

 

[dad]

Enabling people to post on the internet.

Again, some good some bad.

 

[dad]

saving people from smallpox and polio 2 ( thanks to evolution by the way) yeah, that science is sooo bad - not!

Good and bad. They fought diseases at the same time they made weapons of germ warfare. You can't wave that away.

 

[AirPo]

Again, some good some bad.

But you haven't posted anything good yet.

 

[dad]

But you haven't posted anything good yet.

Let's ask someone that knows good from evil.

 

[Aman777]

Let's ask someone that knows good from evil.

Dad posts "good" when he posts Scripture. Amen?

 

[dad]

Dad posts "good" when he posts Scripture. Amen?

Amen. One also can post based on Scripture in a real way. On the other hand one could wrest and hammer and twist and mutilate some isolated scriptures to claim something like Adam lived in a lake and popped up to a world of apes or something.

 

[Aman777]

Amen. One also can post based on Scripture in a real way. On the other hand one could wrest and hammer and twist and mutilate some isolated scriptures to claim something like Adam lived in a lake and popped up to a world of apes or something.

Amen. I'm so happy you now know God's Truth according to Genesis. Can you explain with your understanding, how the DNA of the common ancestor of Apes got inside todays Humans? Of course not since you can't understand Genesis 6:4. Amen?