Scientists find first bird beak.

[PsychoSarah]

The dad and Aman debates have begun again. Alas, I am on a diet, so I can't bring popcorn to this one... so I guess I'll settle for the non-popped variety

 

[Aman777]

The dad and Aman debates have begun again. Alas, I am on a diet, so I can't bring popcorn to this one... so I guess I'll settle for the non-popped variety

Where do you get the idea that Dad wants to debate me? Religion, supported by blind faith, is no match for Scripture which agrees with every discovery of mankind. Amen?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Where do you get the idea that Dad wants to debate me? Religion, supported by blind faith, is no match for Scripture which agrees with every discovery of mankind. Amen?

Because he's debated you a lot in the past, so I feel like the fact that you brought up your biblical interpretation makes it practically an inevitability that you'll debate again.

 

[dad]

Amen. I'm so happy you now know God's Truth according to Genesis. Can you explain with your understanding, how the DNA of the common ancestor of Apes got inside todays Humans?

It didn't. You misinterpret DNA.

 

[dad]

The dad and Aman debates have begun again. Alas, I am on a diet, so I can't bring popcorn to this one... so I guess I'll settle for the non-popped variety

Nothing to debate. I had flushed out his position before to understand what he was trying to say. Not really possible to debate whether Adam was down there under the sea man in some magical bubble alternate world, and only got to this planet of the apes when the flood made the bubble surface!! (or some such true insanity)

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

True, non believers do good works. Charity is part of what the bible teaches, so it is commanded. One would hope that they have a proportionate percentage of charities.

That is not what saves them though. (works)

Right, so you're saying your God has divinely commanded Christians into giving Charity? Yet it seems non-believers like us don't need such divine instruction, as if it were a human nature thing and not divine providence...

In your opinion, who is the better person, one who gives out of humanity, or one who gives on pain of carrot and stick?

Your dates are belief based and absurd. Now there was some pre flood religion, but we don't know much about that. Of what we know...Hinduism, Buddhism, etc that is all after Babel.

Well, you're wrong according to the evidence, because "Of what we know..." about all these religions shows you are just factually incorrect. Provide some Evidence for your claim.

Nope. Your dates are a joke. They are based on a belief in the present state having also existed, along with it's decay process. Face it. Also, we might ask why some of these places were abandoned that maybe existed very early after the flood. I suspect the new nature may have forced some relocation, new habits etc!

yet my belief is supported by all the evidence and your belief is completely without evidential support whatsoever.

Their line includes spirit beings! You really want to stand behind that?

Why would I? I don't stand behind your spirit beings either...

As for the dates you use, they have no value whatsoever in reality and real time.

Since man maybe did not even need to write back before Babel, since all men understood each other, I assume that this is why the ancients started off by pictures and symbols to communicate!!!!!! The evidence mounts.

By the time we had writing, such as the hindu stuff we were very post flood, and even post split (nature change).

lovely assertions you have there, do you have any supporting evidence to go with it? I still have all the evidence that supports my position though...

I don't share their god!

They don't share yours either. Your point?

Is it news that water belched up from deep below? Could there have been some salt there?

not any salt that isn't water soluble, so No - and certainly not where there's enough water to flood the entire world.

Probably post flood...so??

Well, I'm glad you don't subscribe to the silly notion that the Grand Canyon was caused by a worldwide flood, at least...

Church of the newspaper net and tv?

well, you should stop attending those churches then, because they're giving you very weird ideas on wiping out the world and I'd hate for you to get any ideas about some sort of impending apocalypse with delusions you're immune from it, or some such unsubstantiated nonsense...

Yes, you actually said that! Ha.

I notice very early man carved HUGE rocks too heavy apparently to be moved even today. Later the rocks seem to get smaller. Looks like somethings changed. Fantastic folds in some mountains also! Makes more sense if the nature/consistency of rock was not the same. You simply view all things as if they transpired in this nature and cook up fishbowl explanations accordingly!

Well that's entirely nonsense. Rock plasticity is a well understood geological process, so you'll require some evidence to counter the evidence we already have supporting it.

The largest rock ever carved out of the ground to be moved was a 1650 ton block(see The Largest Manmade Block Ever Was Just Discovered in Lebanon | Smart News | Smithsonian ) - but it was likely too heavy to be moved in the end because it never got moved from where it sat (mind you, all this was around 27bc for a nearby temple for Jupiter). So, any stones ever moved were less than this in weight (heck, even some other stones quarried at this site, one weighing in at around 1240 tons were never moved either, but let's go with your 1650 ton block).

What have we actually been able to move since then?

How about a 1,500 ton meteorite in Greenland circa 1894? From 10 Heaviest Objects Mankind Has Ever Moved

How about a Saturn V Rocket, weighing in at 3,100 tons, being transported by a vehicle that weighs a further 2,750 tons itself? From 10 Heaviest Objects Mankind Has Ever Moved

How about San Jose's Hotel Montgomery weighing in at 4,800 tons? From 10 Heaviest Objects Mankind Has Ever Moved

How about a 4,891 ton evaporator the size of a football field? From 10 Heaviest Objects Mankind Has Ever Moved

They're the bigger ones moved over land, there's even bigger moves done on sea, such as the Titanic (at 26,000 tons), and the 'Troll A' natural gas drilling platform (weighing in at 1.2 million tons) - From 10 Heaviest Objects Mankind Has Ever Moved and 10 Heaviest Objects Mankind Has Ever Moved respectively.

so, it seems you have that exactly backwards, my friend. We don't move rocks and blocks that big anymore because we simply have no need of them. We build things bigger and better and move them instead, because of Science!

If the daughter material was ALREADY here and only nature changed so that the isotopes and atoms NOW behaved a different way, what you say is patently wrong and absurd. Totally off base and inapplicable.

except the problem being, how the materials got there precludes them being there to start with - this is why we can use them as measurable indicators. The only way they can get there is by radioactive decay post formation. Your 'different state past' nonsense literally can't work for all the reasons everyone keeps telling you about. we would see tell-tale signs of some different state past, and they'd be painfully obvious at that.

Murdering babies, inventing WOMD, pollution, death dealing cars...etc etc etc. Not a bed or roses, that science bush!

that'd be like saying the bible promotes genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order. I'm sure you'd be among the first to point out that humans using it for nefarious, self-serving reasons, doesn't mean the fault is of the bible - same with science.

 

[Aman777]

It didn't. You misinterpret DNA.

Not so since DNA is an accurate measurement of the past of every Human alive today. You have the blood of a prehistoric woman inside you and it is accurate. How did you get Mitochondrial Eve's blood inside you?

 

[Aman777]

Nothing to debate. I had flushed out his position before to understand what he was trying to say. Not really possible to debate whether Adam was down there under the sea Gen 1:6-7 man in some magical bubble alternate world, (Dad's notion of our Cosmos) and only got to this planet of the apes (correction: common ancestor of Apes) when the flood made the bubble surface!! (or some such true insanity)

My comments in bold show that Dad does not believe Genesis 1:6-8 which clearly states that Adam's firmament was surrounded by water. It probably confused Dad because it says water was above and below it and in Dad's world no one knows that IF water is above and below an object (firmament) then it totally surrounds it. He probably sees it as water floating above the world and below it in two separate masses. Here's the kicker: Adam's firmament/Heaven was made the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8 and our present Heaven/Universe was made at the end of the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4

Does anyone believe that Dad will actually try to explain WHY Adam's firmament was made long BEFORE the beginning of our Universe?

 

[dad]

Right, so you're saying your God has divinely commanded Christians into giving Charity? Yet it seems non-believers like us don't need such divine instruction, as if it were a human nature thing and not divine providence...

In your opinion, who is the better person, one who gives out of humanity, or one who gives on pain of carrot and stick?

The Way to heaven is not by being a better person. All men are sinners.

Well, you're wrong according to the evidence, because "Of what we know..." about all these religions shows you are just factually incorrect. Provide some Evidence for your claim.

The fact is your dates are religion. God any dates not belief based?

yet my belief is supported by all the evidence and your belief is completely without evidential support whatsoever.

Using belief in a same state/nature in the past is not evidence. It is belief imposed on evidences.

Why would I? I don't stand behind your spirit beings either...

Great so you can't use king lists for dates, leaving you with same state past dating alone. Ha.

not any salt that isn't water soluble, so No - and certainly not where there's enough water to flood the entire world.

? If a world of water came up, it could bring a lot of stuff that was not water soluble.

Well, I'm glad you don't subscribe to the silly notion that the Grand Canyon was caused by a worldwide flood, at least...

No, doesn't seem to make sense.

Well that's entirely nonsense. Rock plasticity is a well understood geological process, so you'll require some evidence to counter the evidence we already have supporting it.

Wrong. Only the plasticity of THIS nature!

The largest rock ever carved out of the ground to be moved was a 1650 ton block(see The Largest Manmade Block Ever Was Just Discovered in Lebanon | Smart News | Smithsonian ) - but it was likely too heavy to be moved in the end because it never got moved from where it sat (mind you, all this was around 27bc for a nearby temple for Jupiter). So, any stones ever moved were less than this in weight (heck, even some other stones quarried at this site, one weighing in at around 1240 tons were never moved either, but let's go with your 1650 ton block).

It would be easier to carve mountains out if the rock consistency and laws were different I suspect. As for what can be moved, you have no way to know! You merely look at modern fishbowl physics and try to imagine things moving that way.

How about a 1,500 ton meteorite in Greenland circa 1894? From 10 Heaviest Objects Mankind Has Ever Moved

The way we move things now has no bearing on at a time when the nature was not the same.

so, it seems you have that exactly backwards, my friend. We don't move rocks and blocks that big anymore because we simply have no need of them.

So the pyramid stones and other ancient sites got smaller stones because...of science!! Ha.

except the problem being, how the materials got there precludes them being there to start with - this is why we can use them as measurable indicators. The only way they can get there is by radioactive decay post formation.

Absurdly short sighted. The only way NOW they get here is that way.

Your 'different state past' nonsense literally can't work for all the reasons everyone keeps telling you about. we would see tell-tale signs of some different state past, and they'd be painfully obvious at that.

You are imagining THIS state changing. Get over that notion. We are what was left after the change.

that'd be like saying the bible promotes genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order. I'm sure you'd be among the first to point out that humans using it for nefarious, self-serving reasons, doesn't mean the fault is of the bible - same with science.

Your idea of what God promotes is a dark misconception.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

The Way to heaven is not by being a better person. All men are sinners.

Yep, so under your model, Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer could be in heaven and Ghandi and for that matter any person who has only ever done good for everyone around them but can't overcome their critical faculties to believe in something that has no evidence, will go to Hell.

Anyway, you didn't address my post or answer my question so here they are again:

Right, so you're saying your God has divinely commanded Christians into giving Charity? Yet it seems non-believers like us don't need such divine instruction, as if it were a human nature thing and not divine providence...

In your opinion, who is the better person, one who gives out of humanity, or one who gives on pain of carrot and stick?

The fact is your dates are religion. God any dates not belief based?

All of them are based on evidence, so none are belief based - Your beliefs are what has no evidential basis so answer the question:

Well, you're wrong according to the evidence, because "Of what we know..." about all these religions shows you are just factually incorrect. Provide some Evidence for your claim.

Using belief in a same state/nature in the past is not evidence. It is belief imposed on evidences.

Give me some evidence to think there's a different state past and you might have a point. Until then, please address my post

Great so you can't use king lists for dates, leaving you with same state past dating alone. Ha.

I can because of all the concordant evidence that supports these dates, so address my post.

? If a world of water came up, it could bring a lot of stuff that was not water soluble.

and Salt isn't one of them. Amazing how you literally have to deny all of reality to protect your plainly incorrect and unsupportable beliefs...

Wrong. Only the plasticity of THIS nature!

and every nature we know of,unless you have any evidence? I'm quite sure I don't have to guess this one...

It would be easier to carve mountains out if the rock consistency and laws were different I suspect. As for what can be moved, you have no way to know! You merely look at modern fishbowl physics and try to imagine things moving that way.

Wassat!?? You don't have any Evidence to support your claim? Then we can assign it to the "Not even Wrong!" bin.

The way we move things now has no bearing on at a time when the nature was not the same.

....if only nature wasn't the same. Do you have any evidence to go with that empty unsupported assertion? Fact is, we move bigger and badder things with much ease than we did back then.

So the pyramid stones and other ancient sites got smaller stones because...of science!! Ha.

or common sense even? Seriously, if you could do the same job an easier way or with less effort, wouldn't you?? You have Science to thank for making it easier and doing things smarter... You're Welcome!

Absurdly short sighted. The only way NOW they get here is that way.

well, make up your mind, either they get there because of radioactive decay that would melt the surface of earth, or they get there because the physics involved were vastly different and we would notice it hands down because our radioisotope readings today wouldn't make any sense.

You are imagining THIS state changing. Get over that notion. We are what was left after the change.

a change that has no evidence of ever being, and all the evidence we do have from various methods, sources, measurements and findings indicates a state that has never changed and a universe in the order of 13.8 billion years old.

Provide ANY Evidence whatsoever.

Your idea of what God promotes is a dark misconception.

I didn't say any God promotes anything - I'm not even convinced Gods are a thing. I quite accurately pointed out that your assertion of Science "Murdering babies, inventing WOMD, pollution, death dealing cars...etc etc etc." is equivalent to someone saying "the bible promotes genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order." because of what its adherents do in its name. I know it must really rub you that I'm right on this point.

Science is not responsible for what people do with the findings of Science, in the same way that makers of Baseball Bats are not responsible for how people use them from behind the bar at dodgy downtown niteclubs.

 

[dad]

Not so since DNA is an accurate measurement of the past of every Human alive today. You have the blood of a prehistoric woman inside you and it is accurate. How did you get Mitochondrial Eve's blood inside you?

Wrong, it is not telling of common ancestors! Only as long as this nature existed can that have relevance.

 

[dad]

My comments in bold show that Dad does not believe Genesis 1:6-8 which clearly states that Adam's firmament was surrounded by water.

Gong! The water was beyond where the stars were, not in some octopus' garden under a lake.

 

[dad]

Yep, so under your model, Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer could be in heaven and Ghandi and for that matter any person who has only ever done good for everyone around them but can't overcome their critical faculties to believe in something that has no evidence, will go to Hell.

Real repentance and asking Jesus for His free gift of eternal life is for all men who come to Him.

Anyway, you didn't address my post or answer my question so here they are again:

NO same state past based date is based on evidence.

​

​

Give me some evidence to think there's a different state past and you might have a point. Until then, please address my post

All you need to do is admit you don't know either way.

I can because of all the concordant evidence that supports these dates, so address my post.

Your inwardly concordant beliefs foisted onto evidences are religion.

and Salt isn't one of them. Amazing how you literally have to deny all of reality to protect your plainly incorrect and unsupportable beliefs...

Show us a deposit of which you are thinking and where any problem is in your mind with it.

and every nature we know of,unless you have any evidence?

The only nature we know is the one that exists right now. Prove it always did and will exist?

well, make up your mind, either they get there because of radioactive decay that would melt the surface of earth, or they get there because the physics involved were vastly different and we would notice it hands down because our radioisotope readings today wouldn't make any sense.

Why so fanatical and narrow minded? How about they were here already, and also, some did get here from decay since this nature started to exist!

I didn't say any God promotes anything - I'm not even convinced Gods are a thing. I quite accurately pointed out that your assertion of Science "Murdering babies, inventing WOMD, pollution, death dealing cars...etc etc etc." is equivalent to someone saying "the bible promotes genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order." because of what its adherents do in its name. I know it must really rub you that I'm right on this point.

A lie is not equal to truth.

Science is not responsible for what people do with the findings of Science

Yes. It is. Science should know sin exists.

 

[Brightmoon]

Sin is a human social construct. What does that have to do with science. Can you quantify sin ? Science can really only determine what’s natural and in most cases how it got to that point in time looking the way it does

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Real repentance and asking Jesus for His free gift of eternal life is for all men who come to Him.

Well, I'm not sure how he expects non-believers to come to him on no evidence and surely, a God worth worshipping would know this. If he does exist, then I'm going to Hell and I'll go knowing I'm morally superior to your God.

NO same state past based date is based on evidence.

lol! "Nuh-Uh!"

All you need to do is admit you don't know either way.

lol! "I don't know, and I have to deny you from knowing too!"

Your inwardly concordant beliefs foisted onto evidences are religion.

lol! "Nuh-Uh!" - You're not very good at this game, are you?

Show us a deposit of which you are thinking and where any problem is in your mind with it.

Salt mines. All of them.

The only nature we know is the one that exists right now. Prove it always did and will exist?

All the Ice cores and lake varves show yearly seasons existing as far back as 800,000 years and 150,000 years respectively. We can even throw dendrochronology in to cover the most recent 10,000 - 14,000 years too. The lake varves and tree rings show seasons organically (i.e. autumn leaves, seasonal rain runoff, etc.) which we can correlate with ionised water found in ice cores from summer/winter cycles of the same timeframe, which in turn match radioisometric dating methods, all of which show accurate correlations to major geological and geoclimatic events in earth's history, such as various volcanic eruptions and meteor stikes, etc.

So again, Dendrochronology shows seasonal fluctuations in wood growth, which correlate to lake varves, which also show seasonal cycles, which in turn correlate to Ice Cores which show summer/winter cycles, which in turn correlate to radioisotope measurements. Each step correlates with the step prior. all showing the required same state to be in place otherwise they would literally not match up when we date them.

Now, your turn, provide any evidence whatsoever that supports your fantastic idea that some other state has ever been in play.

Why so fanatical and narrow minded? How about they were here already, and also, some did get here from decay since this nature started to exist!

Well, here's one example of how we know, let's take Zircon crystals and how they form to include uranium and not lead - from The nitty gritty on radioisotopic dating :

"Tens to hundreds of thousands of years before a major volcanic eruption, magma builds up beneath the surface of the Earth. In the magma, crystals of zirconium silicate (called zircons), as well as other crystals, form. These zircon crystals are tiny — just a tenth of a millimeter long — but they are the key to uranium-lead dating. If these crystals were pure, they would contain just zirconium, silica, and oxygen; however, uranium happens to have a similar arrangement of outer electrons to zirconium, and so as zircons form, "mistakes" are sometimes made, and uranium is substituted for zirconium. Because lead (the stable daughter of uranium) has a very different arrangement of electrons, it does not make its way into the crystal as it is forming. The formation of crystals in the magma marks the moment that the radio-isotopic clock starts ticking. When the eruption occurs, zircons are released in the ash and lava, which then become rocks like rhyolite. Geologists hunt for these particular sorts of rock to date the volcanic eruption in which the rock formed. Zircons are nearly perfect clocks because we can be relatively certain that when the crystal formed, no lead was present — and that means that when we discover ancient zircons in rocks today, we can be relatively confident that any lead present is the result of radioactive decay."​

A lie is not equal to truth.

Agreed. You didn't address my post though, so here it is again: I quite accurately pointed out that your assertion of Science "Murdering babies, inventing WOMD, pollution, death dealing cars...etc etc etc." is equivalent to someone saying "the bible promotes genocide, infanticide, slavery, misogyny and the widest array of human rights violations of the highest order." because of what its adherents do after having read the bible and based their lives around it..

Yes. It is. Science should know sin exists.

hmmm, this ought to be interesting, I'm sure: So, how do you propose Science and the scientific method "should know sin exists"? I can't wait...

 

[Aman777]

Wrong, it is not telling of common ancestors! Only as long as this nature existed can that have relevance.

Tell us about how long this "nature has existed". How long since the first Human?

 

[Aman777]

Gong! The water was beyond where the stars were, not in some octopus' garden under a lake.

Bzzzzzzzzt. Wrong again ole Trumper since the Stars were NOT made until the 4th Day. Gen 1:16 Water came from the Heaven (Heb-Air) which was the first thing God created before the 1st Day. Gen 1:1 Can you explain HOW any man of the time, could have known and correctly wrote that water was NOT created, but came from the Air/atmosphere? Of course not. It's proof of God since only He knew this when Genesis One was written. You probably still don't know this. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

Sin is a human social construct.

False. Sin is disobeying one of God's Laws.

What does that have to do with science

Godless Science is brain washing our children that the False ToE is the Truth and God's Holy Word is a myth. Is that any way for a heathen to act?

Can you quantify sin ?

Disobeying God's perfect Law by rejecting His Truth.

Science can really only determine what’s natural and in most cases how it got to that point in time looking the way it does

Then it should stay out of Religion, the Religion of Evolution, since evolution is nothing but descent with modification within kinds in a population over time. Like all Trumpers, hyperbole and lying comes naturally to the godless people who change God's Truth into a man made Lie. Amen?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Sin is a human social construct. What does that have to do with science. Can you quantify sin ?

Sins are listed in the bible, and since the bible also states that all sins are viewed equally, you could technically just count how many times you commit each one outwardly. The thought crime ones would be very difficult to impossible to count without committing them a second time each time you counted.

To count certain acts as sins is still kinda arbitrary in that what qualifies as one differs from perspective to perspective, but you should technically be able to quantify them by number, such as the number of times you lie in a day.

 

[Brightmoon]

So “God’s perfect law” includes lying about nature?
Every time I bump into a fundie I’m glad I was not brought up in that type of religion as I think that would have caused me to leave my faith when I found out about the pointless stupid lies they want to make you believe