Scientists don't require time machines to study craters.

[sjastro]

In a thread which was shut down by moderators, the subject of the Chicxulub crater was raised with the tired old creationist argument one needed a time machine to prove such a crater existed and caused by an asteroid impact.

The oldest impact structure found on Earth is the Yarrabubba impact structure in Western Australia which makes Chicxulub a baby by comparison and has been dated to 2.229 billion years old compared to Chicxulub 66 million years old.
The original crater of the impact structure has long since eroded leaving no visible structure so how do scientists know the crater once existed and was caused by an impact event without having the luxury of a time machine.

Here are some examples.

Shocked quartz.

When subjected to impact events quartz is altered by heat and pressure.
Quartz undergoes a sudden compression and the attendant rise in temperature produces effects not normally observed in quartz.
Shocked quartz has a different microscopic structure to normal quartz.
Under intense pressure, the crystalline structure of shocked quartz is deformed along planes inside the crystal and shows up as lines under a microscope which are called planar deformation features (PDFs) or shock lamellae.

Impactites.

These are terrestrial rocks which has been melted or altered by the heat and pressure of the impact event.

Shatter cones.

These are terrestrial rocks affected by the shock wave of the impact.
The shock waves cause the rocks to fracture into a distinctive cone shape known as a shatter cone.

Magnetic anomalies.

Impacts can cause magnetic anomalies where heat can destroy rock magnetization, displace magnetized rocks from the impact area and form new magnetic phases in the rock.
Such anomalies are detected using magnetometers.

Gravity anomalies.

Large impact structures leave distortions on the surface where there is less mass in the distortion.
This affects the Earth’s gravitational field, which can be detected using instruments such as gravimeters, gravity gradiometers and radar altimeters.

The peer reviewed paper for the Yarrabubba impact structure.

Precise radiometric age establishes Yarrabubba, Western Australia, as Earth’s oldest recognised meteorite impact structure - Nature Communications

The ~70 km-diameter Yarrabubba impact structure in Western Australia has previously been regarded as among Earth’s oldest meteorite craters, but has hitherto lacked absolute age constraints. Here, the authors determine a precise impact age of 2229 ± 5 Ma, which extends the terrestrial cratering...

www.nature.com

 

[AV1611VET]

In a thread which was shut down by moderators, the subject of the Chicxulub crater was raised with the tired old creationist argument one needed a time machine to prove such a crater existed and caused by an asteroid impact.

Fair enough.

Now use shocked quartz, impactites, shatter cones, magnetic anomalies, and gravity anomalies to justify this:

The giant-impact hypothesis, sometimes called the Big Splash, or the Theia Impact, is an astrogeology hypothesis for the formation of the Moon first proposed in 1946 by Canadian geologist Reginald Daly. The hypothesis suggests that the Early Earth collided with a Mars-sized dwarf planet of the same orbit approximately 4.5 billion years ago in the early Hadean eon (about 20 to 100 million years after the Solar System coalesced), and the ejectae of the impact event later accreted to form the Moon. The impactor planet is sometimes called Theia, named after the mythical Greek Titan who was the mother of Selene, the goddess of the Moon.

SOURCE

Now ... how do they know this?

Shocked quartz?

Nope.

Impactites?

Nope.

Shatter cones?

Nope.

Magnetic anomalies?

Nope.

Gravity anomalies?

Nope.

Then how?

Well, let's see:

1. the moon's orbit
2. stable isotope ratios
3. moon samples
4. size of its iron core
5. depleted volatile elements
6. debris discs elsewhere in the universe
7. fits in with standard leading theories of how our solar system was formed

Source: ibid

Not one mention of shocked quartz, impactites, shatter cones, magnetic anomalies, and gravity anomalies; which, according to you, is about as good as a time machine itself.

These other things mentioned (moon orbit, isotope ratios, moon samples, etc.) must be just as good, I take it?

If not, which list is better? yours or Wikipedia's?

 

[AV1611VET]

Shatter cones.

These are terrestrial rocks affected by the shock wave of the impact.
The shock waves cause the rocks to fracture into a distinctive cone shape known as a shatter cone.

Fair enough.

You can show me a picture of a man standing and holding a giant Hershey kiss re the Chicxulub crater.

Now show me the kiss associated with Theia.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Fair enough.

Now use shocked quartz, impactites, shatter cones, magnetic anomalies, and gravity anomalies to justify this:

The giant-impact hypothesis, sometimes called the Big Splash, or the Theia Impact, is an astrogeology hypothesis for the formation of the Moon first proposed in 1946 by Canadian geologist Reginald Daly. The hypothesis suggests that the Early Earth collided with a Mars-sized dwarf planet of the same orbit approximately 4.5 billion years ago in the early Hadean eon (about 20 to 100 million years after the Solar System coalesced), and the ejectae of the impact event later accreted to form the Moon. The impactor planet is sometimes called Theia, named after the mythical Greek Titan who was the mother of Selene, the goddess of the Moon.

SOURCE

Now ... how do they know this?

Shocked quartz?

Nope.

Impactites?

Nope.

Shatter cones?

Nope.

Magnetic anomalies?

Nope.

Gravity anomalies?

Nope.

Then how?

Well, let's see:

1. the moon's orbit
2. stable isotope ratios
3. moon samples
4. size of its iron core
5. depleted volatile elements
6. debris discs elsewhere in the universe
7. fits in with standard leading theories of how our solar system was formed

Source: ibid

Not one mention of shocked quartz, impactites, shatter cones, magnetic anomalies, and gravity anomalies; which, according to you, is about as good as a time machine itself.

These other things mentioned (moon orbit, isotope ratios, moon samples, etc.) must be just as good, I take it?

If not, which list is better? yours or Wikipedia's?

The Chicxulub impact was tiny thing hits large thing. The "Theia" impact was large thing hits larger thing. The impactor was about half the radius of the Earth (or about the size of Mars). The Moon that formed afterward is only 1/4 the radius of Earth. The Chicxulub impactor was less than 1% the radius of The Moon. The Moon forming collision left nothing undisturbed on the surface. Simulations show that such an impact wouldn't have any recognizable surface components remaining.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Chicxulub impact was tiny thing hits large thing. The "Theia" impact was large thing hits larger thing. The impactor was about half the radius of the Earth (or about the size of Mars). The Moon that formed afterward is only 1/4 the radius of Earth. The Chicxulub impactor was less than 1% the radius of The Moon. The Moon forming collision left nothing undisturbed on the surface. Simulations show that such an impact wouldn't have any recognizable surface components remaining.

From the OP:

Shocked quartz.

When subjected to impact events quartz is altered by heat and pressure.
Quartz undergoes a sudden compression and the attendant rise in temperature produces effects not normally observed in quartz.
Shocked quartz has a different microscopic structure to normal quartz.
Under intense pressure, the crystalline structure of shocked quartz is deformed along planes inside the crystal and shows up as lines under a microscope which are called planar deformation features (PDFs) or shock lamellae.

So you're saying none of this applies to another planet hitting Earth Earth hitting another planet?

It only applies to asteroids and smaller objects?

How is it quartz can show shock damage when hit by an asteroid, but no damage when hit by a planet?

Oh, wait.

We hit the planet?

Scientists have even named this planet we hit.

Reminds me of another thread where scientists jumped the gun and named something ahead of time.

Sounds to me like we need a time machine to sort all this out, doesn't it?

 

[Tuur]

You get neat debris like shatter cones if things remain kind of solid. You get tektites from molten splashes. If everything is molten, you get great big splashes without anything solid enough to leave a shatter cone. It's a molten blob surrounded by smaller molten blobs.

The hypothetical Theia (hey, it sounds better than Great Big Rock) smacking into the Earth was just one theory of the origin of the moon back in the 1960s. It just happens to be the one that best matches the data. It doesn't look like it was captured, and the thing is big enough that the barycenter is around three quarters of the way to the earth's surface from the center of our planet, and material composition is similar. Recently a blob of the Great Big Rock (or Theia) may have been found in the earth's interior:

https://www.science.org/content/article/remains-impact-created-moon-may-lie-deep-within-earth

 

[AV1611VET]

You get neat debris like shatter cones if things remain kind of solid. You get tektites from molten splashes. If everything is molten, you get great big splashes without anything solid enough to leave a shatter cone. It's a molten blob surrounded by smaller molten blobs.

Is that why it's sometimes called the "Big Splash" in the link I provided?

 

[sjastro]

Fair enough.

Now use shocked quartz, impactites, shatter cones, magnetic anomalies, and gravity anomalies to justify this:

The giant-impact hypothesis, sometimes called the Big Splash, or the Theia Impact, is an astrogeology hypothesis for the formation of the Moon first proposed in 1946 by Canadian geologist Reginald Daly. The hypothesis suggests that the Early Earth collided with a Mars-sized dwarf planet of the same orbit approximately 4.5 billion years ago in the early Hadean eon (about 20 to 100 million years after the Solar System coalesced), and the ejectae of the impact event later accreted to form the Moon. The impactor planet is sometimes called Theia, named after the mythical Greek Titan who was the mother of Selene, the goddess of the Moon.

SOURCE

Now ... how do they know this?

Shocked quartz?

Nope.

Impactites?

Nope.

Shatter cones?

Nope.

Magnetic anomalies?

Nope.

Gravity anomalies?

Nope.

Then how?

Well, let's see:

1. the moon's orbit
2. stable isotope ratios
3. moon samples
4. size of its iron core
5. depleted volatile elements
6. debris discs elsewhere in the universe
7. fits in with standard leading theories of how our solar system was formed

Source: ibid

Not one mention of shocked quartz, impactites, shatter cones, magnetic anomalies, and gravity anomalies; which, according to you, is about as good as a time machine itself.

These other things mentioned (moon orbit, isotope ratios, moon samples, etc.) must be just as good, I take it?

If not, which list is better? yours or Wikipedia's?

I admire your religious fervor in trying to undermine this thread.
Along with the responses given by @Hans Blaster and @Tuur note the term Giant Impact hypothesis.
It is not a theory as it lacks the direct physical evidence such as described in the OP.

.
​

 

[sjastro]

Fair enough.

You can show me a picture of a man standing and holding a giant Hershey kiss re the Chicxulub crater.

Now show me the kiss associated with Theia.

Not funny at all.
Direct physical evidence for Chicxulub crater:- Gravity anomaly, shocked quartz and tektites which are droplet sized impactites.
Direct physical evidence for Yarrabubba impact structure:- Magnetic anomaly, shocked quartz, other shocked minerals, shatter cones.
Direct physical evidence for Theia:- None which is why it is a hypothesis.

 

[AV1611VET]

Direct physical evidence for Chicxulub crater:- Gravity anomaly, shocked quartz and tektites which are droplet sized impactites.
Direct physical evidence for Yarrabubba impact structure:- Magnetic anomaly, shocked quartz, other shocked minerals, shatter cones.
Direct physical evidence for Theia:- None which is why it is a hypothesis.

Would a time machine settle all this?

 

[SelfSim]

Would a time machine settle all this?

Uncalled for.

 

[dlamberth]

I'm enjoying this thread.

What's estimated to have been the largest asteroid impact structure on earth is the Vredefort impact structure found in South Africa. It's the second oldest impact structure on Earth after Yarrabudda.

Vredefort Crater

 

[Tuur]

Is that why it's sometimes called the "Big Splash" in the link I provided?

Likely.

 

[Tuur]

Would a time machine settle all this?

"Hey Charlie, I'm sorry I got you fired."

"No problem."

"Really?"

"Yes, really."

"And you're not mad your wife left you for me?"

"No."

"Or we got your house?"

"Uh-uh."

"Or your kids look like me?"

"Nope. Bygones are bygones."

"Wow, you're really a good friend. I was worried when you wanted to take me deep sea fishing. You know, things happen."

"Don't be ridiculous."

"Where are we again?"

"The Gulf of Mexico. Near the Yucatan. Good fishing here in the late Cretaceous."

"This is really something. Not only do you spring for a trip in a time machine, but deep sea fishing, too."

"Aw, shucks."

"What is it, Charlie?"

"Wouldn't you know it, I forgot the beer."

"That's all right."

"No, it's not. We'll get thirsty in this heat. I'll just pop back to our time and get the cooler."

"You don't have to go to all that trouble."

"No trouble at all. You won't even know I'm gone."

"Well, if you insist."

"I do. Be right back."

"Okay. Hey, Charlie: What's that up in the sky? It looks like it's getting bigger."

"Something spectacular. Tell you what: when I come back, you can tell me all about it."

"Okay. Bye, Charlie."

"Bye. Heh, heh, heh."

 

[AV1611VET]

"Hey Charlie, I'm sorry I got you fired."

Interesting.

A scientific invention used to commit a crime.

Whodathunkit?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Shocked quartz.

When subjected to impact events quartz is altered by heat and pressure.
Quartz undergoes a sudden compression and the attendant rise in temperature produces effects not normally observed in quartz.
Shocked quartz has a different microscopic structure to normal quartz.
Under intense pressure, the crystalline structure of shocked quartz is deformed along planes inside the crystal and shows up as lines under a microscope which are called planar deformation features (PDFs) or shock lamellae.

So you're saying none of this applies to another planet hitting Earth Earth hitting another planet?

It only applies to asteroids and smaller objects?

the collision in question rearranged the the entire mantle of the Earth (or more) so where should we go looking for these things?

How is it quartz can show shock damage when hit by an asteroid, but no damage when hit by a planet?

Oh, wait.

We hit the planet?

Scientists have even named this planet we hit.

Why not? A name is just a tag for a specific object. A handle. Nothing more. It has no specific power.

Reminds me of another thread where scientists jumped the gun and named something ahead of time.

Sounds to me like we need a time machine to sort all this out, doesn't it?

The time machine nonsense is spreading.

 

[AV1611VET]

The time machine nonsense is spreading.

A time machine is nonsense, but a telescope isn't ... right?

 

[SelfSim]

A time machine is nonsense, but a telescope isn't ... right?

A telescope ... is a telescope.

 

[Hans Blaster]

A time machine is nonsense, but a telescope isn't ... right?

I've used a telescope and seen many others. I've never even seen a plausible proposal to build a time machine. Let's keep from the fantasy, OK?

 

[AV1611VET]

I've used a telescope and seen many others. I've never even seen a plausible proposal to build a time machine. Let's keep from the fantasy, OK?

I have a feeling that, if one was built, scientists would line up around the bend to verify this, that, and several other things.

Let them talk all they want about "not requiring one," but as the saying goes:

If you build it, they will come.