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Scientific proof of flood.

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futzman

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duordi said:
Exactly my point your theory was conceived with 19th century information.

Why continue to shoe horn all the new information on an old foot.

We are all open minded here and desire to give all ideas a fair and honest chance right?
Well, maybe not fair or honest.

If you are unwilling to allow an alternate idea consideration you do no favors for your own theories as they have not stood every test.

Duane

Duane, I've kept out of this thread until now, but I assure you I have an open mind. I haven't participated in this thread because I don't feel qualified to argue geology although I know quite a bit about the subject (I'm an avid amateur paleontologist). Although I'm a pretty staunch evolutionist and old-earth believer, my beliefs are based on the evidence and logical conclusions from the evidence. Am I open to the idea that a global flood occurred? Yes, but it would take more evidence than just one anomolous geologic feature to convince me. Doesn't this make sense to you? The evidence for an old earth and that there was no global flood is OVERWHELMING at this point. It's not a question of an open mind -- it's a question of the evidence.

Futz (still wondering why God couldn't get those 4400 genera of Brachiopoda right the first time...)
 
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notto

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duordi said:
If you think no evidence was given here then you have not been following the thread.
Go back up the tree on my posts to
duordi This may help 16th August 2005, 11:18 PM

Duane

The evidence there directly conflicts with your conclusion. The evidence you provides shows that these were not a single event. You have not provided any reason to discount this data except your unwavering religious belief that it must be incorrect.

You are rejecting the evidence not based on any observations to the contrary but because you must reject it to support your conclusions. Your model doesn't explain the evidence you present. Your model doesn't address the fact that these meteors are dated at different ages using independent dating techniques.
 
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LittleNipper

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duordi said:
If you think no evidence was given here then you have not been following the thread.
Go back up the tree on my posts to
duordi This may help 16th August 2005, 11:18 PM

Duane

Evolutionists & Uniformitarians see only what they WANT to see and they have done NO modern research into anything in support of the Bible. They want to promote what they were taught and what they studied. Every Creationist I have heard was exposed to Uniformitarian & Evolutionistic rhetoric from the day they started an education------how many evoluionists and uniformatarians can make the very same boast of CREATIONISTIC research?
 
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futzman

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LittleNipper said:
Evolutionists & Uniformitarians see only what they WANT to see and they have done NO modern research into anything in support of the Bible. They want to promote what they were taught and what they studied. Every Creationist I have heard was exposed to Uniformitarian & Evolutionistic rhetoric from the day they started an education------how many evoluionists and uniformatarians can make the very same boast of CREATIONISTIC research?

Well, I believe I can. I spent most of my youth as a fundamentalist Christian. I attended one of the very first Creationist seminars in 1972 hosted by Duane Gish and Henry Morris. This was the first I had heard of evidence for a global flood, young earth and creationism. I was fascinated by the idea that all of these Biblical claims could be backed by scientific evidence, provided by real scientists. I spent literally years reading about evolution, creationism and the new creationism "fad" -- intelligent design. I'm now 51 years old. After studying the EVIDENCE over the years (not "rhetoric" as you so glibly put it) became convinced that evolution is a FACT. So don't tell me I'm seeing "what they WANT to see" my friend. I studied the EVIDENCE for years which I dare say is more than you have done.

Futz (still wondering if LittleNipper can explain the 4400 genera of Brachiopoda that God couldn't somehow seem to get right...)
 
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Split Rock

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LittleNipper said:
Evolutionists & Uniformitarians see only what they WANT to see and they have done NO modern research into anything in support of the Bible.
Why should geologists or biologists do "modern research" into the bible? The bible is not a text book on either subject.



LittleNipper said:
They want to promote what they were taught and what they studied. Every Creationist I have heard was exposed to Uniformitarian & Evolutionistic rhetoric from the day they started an education------how many evoluionists and uniformatarians can make the very same boast of CREATIONISTIC research?
I guess if it does not support your narrow view of scripture it must be "rhetoric" by your definition. On the other hand, you view creationist rhetoric as "research."

What a twisted up is down and left is right world you live in... :clap:
 
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Converse02

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LittleNipper,
Understand that science isn't about doing research with the intent of supporting or disproving anything. It simply does research, and the conclusion drawn from the data is up the person looking at it.

It just happens that after 150 years of research after Darwin, in biology, astromony, geology, fossils, anthropology, paleontology, genetics, basically, almost every science that can even remotely deal with evolution, the evidence leads the unbiased viewers to think that evolution is how we got all the animals. If there was a even a shred of evidence in support of the Bible, scientist would surely explore it and the Bible would be a science, it isn't. There ultimate goal of science is is the search for the truth with observation and experimentation, not to support evolution or any other theory. If the day comes that there is enough evidence to tear down evolution and support creationism, it will be science that does it. So far, that is not the case. The data from science overwhelming supports evolution, not creationism.

On a side note.
Creationistic research is a about faith, not science or evidence. Creationism is merely a claim, it cannot be a scientific hypothesis, theory, or law. Why? Because it is not falsifiable.
Evolution is falsifiable, but not falsified. It is testable theory. A fossil of human bones that same age as dinosaur bones would blow the theory of evolution out of the water. But no fossil, no evidence, can possibly blow creationism out of the water. It is immune to being discredited, it cannot be tested so isn't apart of science, but this doesn't mean it is true. You cannot test that an invisible pan-dimensional uber being exists or that organisms are too complex. It is just a claim.
 
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LittleNipper

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futzman said:
Well, I believe I can. I spent most of my youth as a fundamentalist Christian. I attended one of the very first Creationist seminars in 1972 hosted by Duane Gish and Henry Morris. This was the first I had heard of evidence for a global flood, young earth and creationism. I was fascinated by the idea that all of these Biblical claims could be backed by scientific evidence, provided by real scientists. I spent literally years reading about evolution, creationism and the new creationism "fad" -- intelligent design. I'm now 51 years old. After studying the EVIDENCE over the years (not "rhetoric" as you so glibly put it) became convinced that evolution is a FACT. So don't tell me I'm seeing "what they WANT to see" my friend. I studied the EVIDENCE for years which I dare say is more than you have done.

Futz (still wondering if LittleNipper can explain the 4400 genera of Brachiopoda that God couldn't somehow seem to get right...)

Well now "friend," I'm 51 and I never went to a Creationist seminar. Evolutionists have been weaving their web using "modern" applications for well over 150 years. I never even knew that the book THE GENESIS FLOOD by John C. Whitcomb, Jr. & Henry M. Morris even existed, until I was well into my late twenties There was no statistical information, no computer mock-ups, and very little in the way of anything to read (other than the Bible or shelves of Evolutionists trying to build speculation one on another). I'm sorry for you. It will take years for Creationists to be able to re-establish a Biblical perspective in science. They will not have the kind of cooperation evolutionists, uniformitarians, and atheists demanded and got in institutions of education. The RATE research has not even been published as of yet. There presently does not exist a "Creationist" theory because, unlike evolutionists, uniformatarians, and the like----they do not wish to establish "authoritative and expert" OPINIONS that are not Biblically sound and are only speculative.
PS> salvation is not based on feelings. It is founded in trust and reliance.
I feel you are placing your trust in what YOU conclude, instead of seeing yourself and others as finite with very limited abilities and understanding.
 
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LittleNipper

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Split Rock said:
Why should geologists or biologists do "modern research" into the bible? The bible is not a text book on either subject.




I guess if it does not support your narrow view of scripture it must be "rhetoric" by your definition. On the other hand, you view creationist rhetoric as "research."

What a twisted up is down and left is right world you live in... :clap:

The Bible is founded in the REALITY of GOD. Evolution is founded in the value of man's opinion. I don't value man's opinon----it changes...
 
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futzman

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LittleNipper said:
Well now "friend," I'm 51 and I never went to a Creationist seminar. Evolutionists have been weaving their web using "modern" applications for well over 150 years. I never even knew that the book THE GENESIS FLOOD by John C. Whitcomb, Jr. & Henry M. Morris even existed, until I was well into my late twenties There was no statistical information, no computer mock-ups, and very little in the way of anything to read (other than the Bible or shelves of Evolutionists trying to build speculation one on another). I'm sorry for you.

And you point is? Are you saying you're as old as me, are ignorant of the facts and therefore you feel "sorry" for me? Huh?

LittleNipper said:
It will take years for Creationists to be able to re-establish a Biblical perspective in science.

Reestablish? You can't reestablish something you never had. Since when was/is Creationism science?

LittleNipper said:
They will not have the kind of cooperation evolutionists, uniformitarians, and atheists demanded and got in institutions of education. The RATE research has not even been published as of yet. There presently does not exist a "Creationist" theory because, unlike evolutionists, uniformatarians, and the like----they do not wish to establish "authoritative and expert" OPINIONS that are not Biblically sound and are only speculative.

Creationism has no theory because they have little (or no) evidence. Unlike you I've studied their "evidence" and found it wanting.

LittleNipper said:
PS> salvation is not based on feelings. It is founded in trust and reliance.
I feel you are placing your trust in what YOU conclude, instead of seeing yourself and others as finite with very limited abilities and understanding.

Don't care about that as it relates to evolution versus ID-Creationism. Salvation, God, Jesus or Fairies have nothing to do with the evidence. You can be a Christian and still subscribe to the theory of evolution, can you not?

Futz (still wondering why God had so much trouble with those 4400 genera of the Brachiopoda...)
 
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Split Rock

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LittleNipper said:
The Bible is founded in the REALITY of GOD. Evolution is founded in the value of man's opinion. I don't value man's opinon----it changes...
As has been said before, the Bible was written by the Man and its interpretation has changed over the centuries as well. So, you are wrong on both points.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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duordi said:
I do agree that erosion and geological influences will affect the meteor record.

The point in using the Baltic Shield was to observe the meteor distribution in a common geological condition.

See attached image.

I did not intend to imply conditions have not influenced the meteor strike data.

My intent was to determine if the influence was sufficient to explain the distribution completely or if a common event was also necessary to account for the data given.
You claimed that you were looking at a geologically unstable area. The Baltic Shield retains evidence of a lot of meteor strikes because it is a very geologically stable area, not because they happened all at once.

The data that indicates a common event also indicates that a specific multiple event is constrained to a relatively small portion of the Earth. If the strikes in Europe did not extend into ocean areas as seems to be the indication why would it be necessary to cover the Planets oceans with hypothetical meteors?
The data don't indicate a common event. The data indicate that events have been common over the history of the earth but are only preserved in geologically stable areas. Strikes in the oceans would leave little evidence especially since the seafloor has mostly been reworked by continental drift. Strikes in areas that have undergone extensive episodes of mountain building and/or faulting may also be lost and many sites may be buried by sedimentary deposits. That is why the known craters probably represent a small fraction of those that have actually struck the earth in the last few billion years.

If water is contained in the atmosphere and rains out then all of the pressure due to the weight of the water above a specific volume of air is removed.

The atmosphere must then expand as the pressure applied to it is reduced according to the equation PV=NRT. I am sure you are familiar with the related work equations.
No. N is also changing as molecules of water vapor condense to liquid so the pressure can drop with no expansion.

The energy absorption of an expanding atmosphere is not commonly considered.

As long as the atmosphere remains in the expanded state it will not release the energy absorbed.
This doesn't actually make any sense to me.

Noah’s trip was not a pleasure trip spent on the deck basking in the sun.

He was inside over a year, which is long enough for a clear sky to develop and yes even a rainbow.
The sky might clear enough in one year for a rainbow but growing conditions will be terrible for many years after so many meteor strikes and with all plants wiped out there will nothing to grow anyway.

BTW, just how long ago do you think this global flood occured and how long do you think the ice age lasted after the flood?

If you now don't think all the big stikes occured at once, when did the ones that weren't part of this episode occur in the short history you allow for earth? Some of the bigger strikes had energies equivalent to 10's or even hundreds of million of megatons of TNT.

When was the Toba supervolcano? How about the Brunea Jarbridge supervolcanic eruption that buried the animals at Ashfall in Nebraska? How about the eruptions of the Yellowstone Supervolcano? Where do you squeeze them into your young earth? When did the 6,000 foot thick lava of the Deccan Traps flow out and cool in your young earth time frame? It must have been a while ago as it would take a long time for lava that thick to cool and there is an ancient temple that was carved into the basalt in about 200 BC. Modern science puts the Deccan at about 65 million years old. What about the even larger Siberian Traps? Many scientists now think the outflowing of the Siberian traps at least contribute to the mass extinction at the end of the Permian. When did all that volcanic activity occur on the young earth.

You are big on catastrophic analysis. How did all the above catastrophies, massive meteor strikes, massive supervolcanoes and massive lava flows occur on a young earth without anyone who kept records over the last 4,000 years noticing them? Or did they all occur during the flood? If so how did anything survive that?

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LittleNipper

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futzman said:
And you point is? Are you saying you're as old as me, are ignorant of the facts and therefore you feel "sorry" for me? Huh?



Reestablish? You can't reestablish something you never had. Since when was/is Creationism science?



Creationism has no theory because they have little (or no) evidence. Unlike you I've studied their "evidence" and found it wanting.



Don't care about that as it relates to evolution versus ID-Creationism. Salvation, God, Jesus or Fairies have nothing to do with the evidence. You can be a Christian and still subscribe to the theory of evolution, can you not?

You, say you are no longer a Christian, so obviously, evolutionists as Christians are at the very least shooting themselves in the foot----perhaps the head also... I'm saying that in 1972 there was very little supportive scientific research being carried out by Christians thinking as Christians. If evolution is science---Creation is science. Have you been able to Create life from inert chemicals. If you CANNOT CREATE life, just how do you IMAGINE life happened without inspiration? Is this a fact you are ignorant of? Quetzalcoatlus had a 40 foot wingspand. What do Evolutionist know to be its ancestor? Fully developed and a 40 foot wingspan to boot, and how many years do evolutionists know it took for this species to develope? Evolutionists have NO evidence. You have a chip on your shoulder, and I must admit that the worldly part of me would love to knock it off, but what would that accomplish, huh? All evolutionists have proven is that they can CREATE variations of a species. They cannot even create an entirely new species. Mutant fruit flies are still fruit flies. I am not impressed with the speed Scientists have influenced evolution.
 
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futzman

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LittleNipper said:
You, say you are no longer a Christian, so obviously, evolutionists as Christians are at the very least shooting themselves in the foot----perhaps the head also...

Let's see if I understand what you're saying:

1) I'm no longer a Christian
2) Therefore Christians are shooting themselves in the foot

I don't follow your logic here. Sorry.

LittleNipper said:
I'm saying that in 1972 there was very little supportive scientific research being carried out by Christians thinking as Christians.

And so since we have more Christian scientists working on this problem now it's getting better? I see little, if any, advance in real evidence for creationism.

LittleNipper said:
If evolution is science---Creation is science.

Creationism is NOT science. Whereever did you get such an idea?

LittleNipper said:
Have you been able to Create life from inert chemicals. If you CANNOT CREATE life, just how do you IMAGINE life happened without inspiration?

Abiogenesis (the process you're referring to, btw) is a separate issue from evolution. You creationists are all alike. Once you're losing the evolution versus creationism debate, you immediately cloud the issue by saying "well, you can't create life in a lab, now can you! Nananana!". Geez...

LittleNipper said:
Is this a fact you are ignorant of? Quetzalcoatlus had a 40 foot wingspand. What do Evolutionist know to be its ancestor? Fully developed and a 40 foot wingspan to boot, and how many years do evolutionists know it took for this species to develope? Evolutionists have NO evidence.

I can give you about 15,000 examples in the phylum Brachiopoda, but I'm pretty sure you'd just say "See-- that clam has no legs!!! Gotcha!".


LittleNipper said:
You have a chip on your shoulder, and I must admit that the worldly part of me would love to knock it off, but what would that accomplish, huh?

Hey, go for it. If you want to "knock it off" you're doing a pretty poor job with the evidence you've submitted so far. As I said, anytime, any place you want to compare the evidence for evolution versus the "evidence" for creationism, I'm game to go at with you. (You're not talking "physically" knocking it off, are you? If so how very childish.)

LittleNipper said:
All evolutionists have proven is that they can CREATE variations of a species. They cannot even create an entirely new species. Mutant fruit flies are still fruit flies. I am not impressed with the speed Scientists have influenced evolution.

Well then you're seriously misinformed or mentally challenged.

Futz (wondering when LittleNipper is going to attempt to explain those extinct 4400 genera of Brachiopoda...)
 
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TrueCreation

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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
The CPT model that you are promoting first releases about 10^28 J of gravitational potential energy, then it produces an entire new seafloor and lithosphere in about 150 days IIRC. Cooling the new seafloor alone will release another 10^28 J. Perhaps not all the 10^28 J of gravitational potential energy will be released as heat on the surface of the earth but some percentage will along with the 10^28 J from the new ocean crust as it cools and releases its heat of fusion and maybe another 2-3x10^28 J will come from the new litosphere. It would take less than 6 x 10^26 J to heat all the water in all the oceans to 100C which is less than 6% of the total heat released. It only takes about 3x10^27 J to boil all the water in all the oceans at STP. That is about 1/3 of the heat from the cooling and solidifying crust alone.

One of the most efficient ways to transfer heat to the air is by evaporation and recondensation of water releasing latent heat. The heat capacity of the entire atmosphere is about 5x10^21 J/degree. The heat from boiling even a fraction of one percent of the water in the oceans will heat the atmosphere to 100C by latent heat and several times more heat than is needed to boil all the water in all the oceans is released by CPT.

That is why I say that catastrophic plate tectonics would have ended life on earth.
It would have ended life on earth no more than continental drift would have never happened when Wegener first proposed it. The problem is that you are operating from conjecture and speculative inference. I think wehappyfew was looking in the right direction when he stated in that thread, "I wonder if we could model it somehow to show that..." He correctly notes that direct modeling offers more information than speculations based on fundamental thermodynamic principles. Moreover there is a lot wrong with the way you have dealt with the some of this data. You have treated the release of gravitational potential energy as if it effected the surface. You have merely speculated on where the heat would ultimately go. Your arguments against CPT look to me like Hovind reasoning.

Models need evidence. The best evidence for a global flood driven by CPT would be a sterilized earth. Fortunately for us it never happened.
Right, the sterilized earth never happened. But CPT may have.

-Chris Grose
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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LittleNipper said:
notto said:
Much of what we now understand about the effects of Pyroplastic flows comes directly from the observances at Mount St. Helens. This event gave us a new understand of exactly what Pliny the Younger witnessed in his day. "Modern scientists" had originally held this account as an exageration or could not fully understand what he was trying to say. Mount St. Helens changed this in one day. The bubble you break may be your own.

The only thing surprising about the pyroclastic flow at St. Helens was the magnitude of the lateral blast after the side of the mountain collapsed in a landslide. Vulcanologists were mostly expecting a more vertical eruption. Both Pelee in Martinique and Novarupta in Alaska had larger pyroclastic flows and they were long before St. Helens. Pelee killed 30,000 people in 1902. Ironically, the one person who did predict a lateral blast from St. Helens was Johnston who was killed by it.

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Frumious Bandersnatch

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TrueCreation said:
It would have ended life on earth no more than continental drift would have never happened when Wegener first proposed it.
Continental drift at currently observed rates releases the heat and gases slowly enough that it is not a problem.

The problem is that you are operating from conjecture and speculative inference. I think wehappyfew was looking in the right direction when he stated in that thread, "I wonder if we could model it somehow to show that..." He correctly notes that direct modeling offers more information than speculations based on fundamental thermodynamic principles. Moreover there is a lot wrong with the way you have dealt with the some of this data. You have treated the release of gravitational potential energy as if it effected the surface.
While I mentioned this 10^28 J of gravitational energy, I based my conclusions on the 10^28 Joules from cooling and solidifying the crust and the 3x10^28 J from the cooling and soldifying the lithosphere and not this energy though some would probably be released on the surface.

Do you think the heat from cooling and soldifying the crust would not have heated the oceans? If not where did it go? You are the one calling for cooling by hydrothermal circulation. Are you going to try to tell us that doesn't heat the water? The 10^28 J from the crust is enough to boil all the oceans 3 times over without any contribution from the gravitational potential energy or the lithosphere.

You have merely speculated on where the heat would ultimately go. Your arguments against CPT look to me like Hovind reasoning.
Now that's a low blow. It's hardly speculation that cooling the new ocean crust will heat the oceans and the oceans transfer heat to the air through latent heat of evaporation. Would you like to tell us where all this heat went otherwise? It only takes a small fraction of the total heat to heat the oceans to the point that no sea life would survive and transfer of a miniscule fraction to the air will heat the air to the point where no air breathing life will survive.

Right, the sterilized earth never happened. But CPT may have.

-Chris Grose
Not without sterilizing the earth.

Of course CPT has a few other fatal flaws as well as well as the heat. For example we talked about burrowing animals. Some of these animals burrowed into the seafloor. There is also an extensive and ordered fossil record of sessile benthic marine organisms. That is organisms that lived fixed to the sea floor and got buried in place. If I read Baumgardner right the entire sea floor gets subducted in CPT. All these animals and their burrows should have been sucked right down and not buried. How is there a fossil record of sea floor dwellers and sea floor burrowers if the sea floor was catastrophically subducted during the flood?

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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Let's look at wehappyfew's whole post from that thread since TC brought it up.
wehappyfew said:
Here's another factor to consider:

At sufficient pressure, water does not boil, it seperates into a brine phase and a vapor phase, both being liquid. The densities of the two are different, but nothing like the difference between steam and water.

Even if the contact with the magma was below the critical point pressure (shallow enough depth), the steam would not be nearly as bouyant as steam at atmospheric pressure, so the bouyancy need to force this steam to the surface and into space would not be there.

Steam rising through several kilometers of ocean would lose heat to the cool water very fast. I wonder if we could model it somehow to show that the steam would lose so much heat that it would re-condense before reaching the surface. The only way to avoid re-condensing, that I can see, is to have the entire ocean at the boiling point (which would happen pretty quickly, anyway).

Note he also says the oceans would get to the boiling point pretty quickly. Of course they don't even have to get to the boiling point to end all sea life. I have done more complex calculations where i modeled the fact that atmospheric pressure will increase increasing the boiling point of water and of course brine will separate. The increase in pressure increases boiling T but decreases the latent heat of evaporation so there is still plenty of heat to boil all the water. The end result is an ocean of saturated brine and an atmosphere of high pressure saturated steam.
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Loudmouth

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LittleNipper said:
You, say you are no longer a Christian, so obviously, evolutionists as Christians are at the very least shooting themselves in the foot----perhaps the head also...

How about geologists who believe in an old earth? Are they Satan's playthings too?

I'm saying that in 1972 there was very little supportive scientific research being carried out by Christians thinking as Christians.

No, there were plenty in mainstream science developing modern biology and modern geology.

If evolution is science---Creation is science.

Science doesn't allow faith, so you might want to be careful about mixing in your religion.

Have you been able to Create life from inert chemicals. If you CANNOT CREATE life, just how do you IMAGINE life happened without inspiration? Is this a fact you are ignorant of?

Maybe life started in a way that we haven't discovered yet? If I asked someone 2,000 years ago how lightning is made could they give me a scientific answer? No. Therefore Zeus did it. God-of-the-Gaps has been shown to be a poor argument for a long time since those gaps in our knowledge keep getting filled by science.

All evolutionists have proven is that they can CREATE variations of a species.

You mean variations such as chimps and humans?

They cannot even create an entirely new species. Mutant fruit flies are still fruit flies. I am not impressed with the speed Scientists have influenced evolution.

You have seen the enormous list of observed speciation events, have you not?
 
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LittleNipper

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Numenor said:
So is all theology. Don't you hold to any theology at all?

Biblical theology ONLY, after personal study and prayer. I do not hang my salvation on the teachings of man but ONLY the revelation through the Holy Spirit of GOD through HIS WORD.
 
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