Science vs. Christian

[JacksBratt]

It does, because they were not describing our scientific 1 rotation days.

Chapter and verse required here.... or other theological logic or reference other than your own opinion.

God did not say "there was evening, there was morning etc." Its a commentary of the writer.

Who's words are recorded in bible?

The writer, could not put "there was evening, there was morning, the first day" etc, in the canon if God did not want it there.

God put it there for a reason. Every single bit of script is necessary or it would not be there.

Or billions of years or just a symbolic separation of different creation frames.

You obviously hold to your old earth view, despite the word of God.

Nowhere in any biblical scripture is the old earth even hinted at. It is the fabrication of men who have more faith in what their minds believe and what God has told them.

God could do it in six days (unless you think this is beyond His ability)
God told us he did it in six days ( Unless you think the scripture is untrue)

If you do not take the bible to be the word of God, I can no longer exchange in discussion with you, as we have way different views of Christian faith.

 

[trophy33]

Chapter and verse required here.... or other theological logic or reference other than your own opinion.

The logic is quite simple and easy to grasp - they were not talking about the rotation of planet, because they had no idea there is such a movement or that we are on a planet or that our planet moves around sun or that stars are distant suns etc.

Who's words are recorded in bible?

Of many people. They were inspired regarding theology, but used their own knowledge of the universe and their agricultural language to describe what God did.

The writer, could not put "there was evening, there was morning, the first day" etc, in the canon if God did not want it there.
God put it there for a reason. Every single bit of script is necessary or it would not be there.

That does not mean that your 21st scientific literal reading of it is correct.

You obviously hold to your old earth view, despite the word of God.

God never said that the Earth is young, the opposite is true - there are verses that mountains are eternal and similar.

Nowhere in any biblical scripture is the old earth even hinted at. It is the fabrication of men who have more faith in what their minds believe and what God has told them.

Eternal mountains probably will not be young.

God could do it in six days (unless you think this is beyond His ability)

Or in 6 seconds or in 6 quadrilion years. Its on Him, do not force your wish to be the only one possible.

God told us he did it in six days ( Unless you think the scripture is untrue)

God also said that He is a door. Literal reading misleads you.

If you do not take the bible to be the word of God, I can no longer exchange in discussion with you, as we have way different views of Christian faith.

God inspired theological part of Scriptures, God did not correct cosmological views of the writers. Its not the goal of the Bible, to teach science.

 

[JacksBratt]

The logic is quite simple and easy to grasp - they were not talking about the rotation of planet, because they had no idea there is such a movement or that we are on a planet or that our planet moves around sun or that stars are distant suns etc.

Agreed. Nor is it necessary.

A recipe may call for an egg, butter and milk.. but even though it does not describe the complexities of where these three came from, they are still constant years later.

Of many people. They were inspired regarding theology, but used their own knowledge of the universe and their agricultural language to describe what God did.

Really? Then how did Moses know to tell his people to bury their human waste with sand, wash with running water or that the dimensions of the ark are basically the dimensions used in most ocean faring vessels as the best for large bodies of water?

If you look, you will see that there were many places where the author of the scripture has written down things that later make scientific, medical or other wise logic not possible of them to be aware of at the time.

That does not mean that your 21st scientific literal reading of it is correct.

In your opinion, obviously. However, I disagree.

God never said that the Earth is young, the opposite is true - there are verses that mountains are eternal and similar.

Yes, they are.. but that does not mean that the mountains did not have beginning and it was about 6000 years ago..

God doesn't say that the earth is young... He just tells us when He made it and we can calculate how long ago that was.

Eternal mountains probably will not be young.

I have eternal life.. however, I was young and, to some, I still am.

Or in 6 seconds or in 6 quadrilion years. Its on Him, do not force your wish to be the only one possible.

Actually, He made it quite clear.. it was not 6 seconds, or 6 quadrillion years..

He quite pointedly states "there was evening, there was morning.. The first DAY.

Show me where it states anywhere about less time or more time, without someone stating that it is truth because they read between the lines, twist, spin or assume things of scripture that are not there.

God also said that He is a door. Literal reading misleads you.

OK, so you cannot discern between Christ being the door, knocking on the door, being the Lamb of God, being our shepherd.....

The bible begins with clear concise plain language and finishes with complex writing, not the opposite.

God inspired theological part of Scriptures, God did not correct cosmological views of the writers. Its not the goal of the Bible, to teach science.

You think God allowed men to pen things that were contrary to the truth of anything? Seriously?

How would this be true then?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[trophy33]

Really? Then how did Moses know to tell his people to bury their human waste with sand...

Wow... this is something (irony).

Yes, they are.. but that does not mean that the mountains did not have beginning and it was about 6000 years ago..

Millions years fit to the description of "eternal mountains" better than a mountain old 2,000 years. So, this will not win your case.

God doesn't say that the earth is young... He just tells us when He made it and we can calculate how long ago that was.

No, He did not say when He made it.

He quite pointedly states "there was evening, there was morning.. The first DAY.

Again wrong. God did not say this. The writer did.

Show me where it states anywhere about less time or more time

In Gen 1, God created everything in six days.
In Gen 2, God created everything in one day.

This alone should warn you against literalism in Genesis.

You think God allowed men to pen things that were contrary to the truth of anything? Seriously?

Yes, He did - firmanent, stars falling on earth, thinking with kidneys, flat earth, wrong description of a water cycle, saying that the Roman empire is the "whole world", wrong pi constant and similar.

How would this be true then?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You still do not understand the purpose of Scriptures - to lead us to monotheism and redemption. The purpose of Scripture is not to teach us cosmology, biology or chemistry.

Its inspired for its purpose, not for another one. You have it right here in the verse you posted - for righteousness, for good works. This is the purpose.

 

[-57]

Personally I have to go with the young earth. Many reasons.

1 path to getting there. Bishop Ussher added up the genealogy, and arived at a date of approximately 4,000 BC for the creation. Many debate the age and said Ussher probably left out some of the unmentioned people in the linages. So what. Throw in a few more thousand years and you still have a young earth and one that isn't millions or billions of years old.

What is a day? I agree with the reasoning that a day equals a 24 hour long time period. The argument for "evening" and "morning" should be convincing. Couple that with the numering of the days, that is day 1, day 2 etc and a literal reading seems to emerge. Secondly the 10 commandments says God did it in 6 day's and rested on the 7th.

What does an old earth evolutionistic view do to the need for Jesus Christ? For starters it tells us there was no real Adam, no real garden, no real tree, no real fall. It was all a metaphore or allegorical. The question is how did sin then enter into the world and spread to all of the population if there wasn't a literal Adam? If sin was a natural process of evolutionism rather than the result of disobedience, why the need for Jesus?

Old earthism denies the worls wide flood of Noah. It teaches the dinosaurs died in a "gap" or long period of time inserted between Gen 1:1 and 2 rather than being destroyed in the flood and buried in the flood sediment. Interesting fact is the finding of biomaterial in dinosaur fossils that should not be there if the dinosaurs actually died out 65+ MY's ago.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Please ponder the claims and allegations of modern science:

Earth = 4.6 Gyr old
Universe = 13.8 Gyr old = 3.0 x age of the earth​

So, according to science, the earth is just about exactly precisely 1/3rd the age of the universe at present

if those numbers seem "cherry picked", then who or what made them work out so strikingly ?

 

[The Barbarian]

The age of the universe is actually estimated to be 13.7 billion years old.

But yeah, it could actually be anywhere from 12 to 14 billion, so most scientists would consider that a reasonable estimate.

Likewise, the consensus for the Earth is a bit over 4.5 billion years old.

But 4.7 is pretty close. Who made them work out so precisely? Whoever noticed that the Earth is close to 1/3 the age of the universe, and adjusted the numbers to make them fit precisely. There used to be a guy who wrote Carl Sagan a lot. He was a religious mystic, whose specialty was finding Biblical history in various ratios among objects in the solar system.

There are other guys who do it using the pyramids. If you look hard enough, and toss out the data that don't fit, there's a lot of that out there.

 

[Tom 1]

Please ponder the claims and allegations of modern science:

Earth = 4.6 Gyr old
Universe = 13.8 Gyr old = 3.0 x age of the earth​

So, according to science, the earth is just about exactly precisely 1/3rd the age of the universe at present

if those numbers seem "cherry picked", then who or what made them work out so strikingly ?

I'm not sure if you can really read anything into that. The same would likely be said if the earth was just some other fraction of the age of the universe, 1/4 or whatever.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'm not sure if you can really read anything into that. The same would likely be said if the earth was just some other fraction of the age of the universe, 1/4 or whatever.

the probability of the ratio of ages being so close to any simple fraction is very low

 

[The Barbarian]

the probability of the ratio of ages being so close to any simple fraction is very low

Which is why it's not surprising that someone fiddled a bit with the data to make it that way.

The age of the universe is actually estimated to be 13.7 billion years old.

But yeah, it could actually be anywhere from 12 to 14 billion, so most scientists would consider that a reasonable estimate.

Likewise, the consensus for the Earth is a bit over 4.5 billion years old.

But 4.7 is pretty close. Who made them work out so precisely? Whoever noticed that the Earth is close to 1/3 the age of the universe, and adjusted the numbers to make them fit precisely. There used to be a guy who wrote Carl Sagan a lot. He was a religious mystic, whose specialty was finding Biblical history in various ratios among objects in the solar system.

There are other guys who do it using the pyramids. If you look hard enough, and toss out the data that don't fit, there's a lot of that out there.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Which is why it's not surprising that someone fiddled a bit with the data to make it that way.

The age of the universe is actually estimated to be 13.7 billion years old.

But yeah, it could actually be anywhere from 12 to 14 billion, so most scientists would consider that a reasonable estimate.

Likewise, the consensus for the Earth is a bit over 4.5 billion years old.

But 4.7 is pretty close. Who made them work out so precisely? Whoever noticed that the Earth is close to 1/3 the age of the universe, and adjusted the numbers to make them fit precisely. There used to be a guy who wrote Carl Sagan a lot. He was a religious mystic, whose specialty was finding Biblical history in various ratios among objects in the solar system.

There are other guys who do it using the pyramids. If you look hard enough, and toss out the data that don't fit, there's a lot of that out there.

let's use your figures then

13.7/3 = 4.566666

the age of the earth is supposedly 4.55 billion

The Age of the Earth

that is within measurement uncertainty and within 0.37% of identical

very unlikely by chance

not impossible just not likely

I'm just using the well known numbers

 

[The Barbarian]

let's use your figures then

13.7/3 = 4.566666

the age of the earth is supposedly 4.55 billion

You'd think God could do better than that, if He was trying to tell us something. Why close to 1/3, and not close to 1/2, 1/4, 1/7...?

Doesn't seem very convincing, does it?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Who's words are recorded in bible?

This has to do with inspiration and what that means. 2Tim3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2Peter1:20 "For no prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

This goes back to Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Animals have life but man has the breath of life.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Every single bit of script is necessary or it would not be there.

The word is Jot. Every single pen stoke has very profound even infinite meaning. They say there are 600,000 pen strokes that make up the letters in the Torah. (The first 5 books of the Bible.) All of the Bible can be contained in the first word, even the first letter of the first word in the Bible. That is the letter b that represents a tent or dwelling and represents God wanting to become a part of His creation. The incarnation of the Son. The first and the second letter represents Ben or Son. The rest of the word "Beginning" means Heaven and Earth are to be united and become one. As Jesus taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven." Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

 

[Erik Nelson]

The word is Jot. Every single pen stoke has very profound even infinite meaning. They say there are 600,000 pen strokes that make up the letters in the Torah. (The first 5 books of the Bible.) All of the Bible can be contained in the first word, even the first letter of the first word in the Bible. That is the letter b that represents a tent or dwelling and represents God wanting to become a part of His creation. The incarnation of the Son. The first and the second letter represents Ben or Son. The rest of the word "Beginning" means Heaven and Earth are to be united and become one. As Jesus taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven." Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

wow , amazing observations, thanks for that

 

[The Barbarian]

Old earthism denies the worls wide flood of Noah.

So does the Bible. It does not describe a global flood. In the Bible "world" does not have the same meaning we attach to it.

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

That doesn't mean Augustus intended to tax the Parthians. Here's why in later commentary on the flood, in the NT, we see "world":

ecumenical (adj.)
late 16c., "representing the entire (Christian) world," formed in English as an ecclesiastical word, from Late Latin oecumenicus "general, universal," from Greek oikoumenikos "from the whole world," from he oikoumene ge "the inhabited world (as known to the ancient Greeks); the Greeks and their neighbors considered as developed human society (as opposed to barbarian lands)," in later use "the Roman world" and in the Christian sense in ecclesiastical Greek, from oikoumenos, present passive participle of oikein "inhabit," from oikos "house, habitation" (from PIE root *weik- (1) "clan"). Related: Ecumenic.
ecumenical | Origin and meaning of ecumenical by Online Etymology Dictionary

My emphasis.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So does the Bible. It does not describe a global flood.

Noah's flood is an archetype of the world wide flood at a different point in time. There are people today that like to use the word paradigm. The Bible talks about shadows and types.

Just because Noah's flood was a local flood does not mean that the whole world was not impacted or effected by Noah's flood. This has to do with domesticated plants and animals. That spread from the Middle East to Europe and even the rest of the world. Noah's flood was part of the neolithic revolution.

 

[The Barbarian]

Just because Noah's flood was a local flood does not mean that the whole world was not impacted or effected by Noah's flood. This has to do with domesticated plants and animals. That spread from the Middle East to Europe and even the rest of the world. Noah's flood was part of the neolithic revolution.

I think you might very well be right about that. There was a huge regional flood in the Middle East, about the right time for it to work out as you suggest.

 

[SkyWriting]

The thing about science is what is scientific fact changes year to year. The bible or any religion for that matter is a matter of faith not fact. But the thing is science also gives some basis to a higher power. If you look at mathematical percentages the match says most likely there is some form of creator you can call it god or aliens but something created us.
Scientist say the universe evolved over billions of years.
Christians think the universe formed in 6 to 7 thousand years

Some Christians do. The percentages do not determine truth.
All past events are a matter of faith.

 

[SkyWriting]

Personally I have to go with the young earth. Many reasons.

1 path to getting there. Bishop Ussher added up the genealogy, and arived at a date of approximately 4,000 BC for the creation. Many debate the age and said Ussher probably left out some of the unmentioned people in the linages. So what. Throw in a few more thousand years and you still have a young earth and one that isn't millions or billions of years old.

That's a pretty important statement of faith for you to claim that God was waiting for Bishop Ussher and his Abacus to figure out what day Creation was. Ussher could have read scripture and seen that the earth was "practically" eternal in age. But instead he used took a couple weeks to add up estimates of time frames and invent a new number for the age. A number no two people have agreed on. That sounds pretty hokey a thing for God to do to us.

Habakkuk 3
6 He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. His were the everlasting ways.

Deuteronomy 33
15 with the finest produce of the ancient mountains and the abundance of the everlasting hills,

Genesis 49
26 The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills. May they be on the head of Joseph, and on the brow of him who was set apart from his brothers.

Psalms 76
4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than the ancient mountains

Micah 6
2 "Hear, you mountains, the LORD's accusation; listen, you everlasting
foundations of the earth.