i think you have it backwards--ONLY God can prove answers; science can only pose questions.
ephraim
This is an intriguing statement. I apologise if I am being slow, but could you please explain more clearly what you mean by this?
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i think you have it backwards--ONLY God can prove answers; science can only pose questions.
ephraim
This is an intriguing statement. I apologise if I am being slow, but could you please explain more clearly what you mean by this?
I didn't pick that way just because that's how I want it, I pick that way because when I read the Bible, that's how I view God. If he wants us to be merciful and forgiving, then I believe that he himself does the same, and more so than us.Firstly, might i point out to you without being offensive that your "picking the one that involves the most love and mercy, and forgiveness of one's enemies" does not necessarily make it true.
This is a tricky subject. If he makes all of out paths straight who believe in him, then there wouldn't be a zillion different Christian denominations. Everyone who reads the Bible tries to understand what God's message is."TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; IN ALL YOUR WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, AND HE WILL MAKE YOUR PATHS STRAIGHT. DO NOT BE WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES; FEAR THE LORD AND SHUN EVIL" (Proverbs 3:5-7)
Now, as mentioned previously, Scripture states, "INDEED, WHEN GENTILES, WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THINGS REQUIRED BY THE LAW, THEY ARE A LAW FOR THEMSELVES, EVEN THOUGH THEY DO NOT HAVE THE LAW, SINCE THEY SHOW THAT THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCES ALSO BEARING WITNESS, AND THEIR THOUGHTS NOW ACCUSING, NOW EVEN DEFENDING THEM." (Romans 2:14-15)
I guess this would bring up the question as to what "having the law" means. This is where we disagree. If someone is told the law, does he have it? I don't think so. I think someone "has the law" when he has accepted the law, not just when he has heard it. I don't think any amount of discussing it will make us agree on this issue- both of us have read the Bible and applied our own understanding of it (even though like you pointed out the proverbs warned against our own understanding, everyone uses it). I'm not saying I'm definitely right, but when I read the Bible, that's how I understand it, just as how when you read the Bible, you understand it a different way. Just like how the tons of different denominations read the Bible, and understand it a different way.This says to me that there are other ways of arriving at a total Love of God and neighbor than Christianity--if Christianity isn't an available option. (Please not that we are no talking about atheists of others who have heard the Gospel and willfully rejected it--even though they may appear "loving" and "good" by worldly criteria.) In this regard, Scripture also states, "HE IS THE ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, AND NOT ONLY FOR OURS BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." (I John 2:2)
But it is an even risker proposition getting information from an atheist/agnostic Website in that the agenda there is a desperate--if laughable--attempt to prove that the Bible must be false.
As mentioned in a previous post, science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, and it is by faith that we either believe or disbelieve. However, as Pascal's Wager points out, it makes infinitely more sense to choose, in faith, to believe in God than to choose to disbelieve in His existence. If you believe and are wrong, you have lost nothing but have, in reality, gained a satisfying and fulfilling life full of love and blessings; if you disbelieve and are wrong, you have lost EVERYTHING--no meaningfull life beyond that of an evolved animal [/B](which is how atheists see themselves) now, with eternal darkness to follow.
Jeremiah 17:10 said:I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Matthew 16:27 said:For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
John 5:29 said:And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Romans 2:6 said:Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.
James 2:14 said:What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
1 Peter 1:17 said:The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.
Revelation 2:23 said:I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
James 2:25 said:Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Pascal's Wager with regards to Santa Clause said:
- If there's no Santa Clause and you believe, then you lose nothing.
- If there is a Santa Clause and you believe, you get presents.
- If there's no Santa Clause and you don't believe, again you lose nothing.
- If there is a Santa Clause and you don't believe, then you get lumps of coal.
So, the odds are more in your favour if you believe in Santa Clause.
Atheists, of all God's creatures, are to be pitied!
I understand how you feel.
Science is so adamant about there not being a God.
-Science is meant to measure the measurable.
Science cannot measure God because He cannot be measured.
Neither do they measure God because they assume He is not there.
Neither Evolution nor Creation can be scientifically proven for they cannot be reproduced in a laboratory.
But we do know the Bible is true because of the many many fulfilled prophecies.
We know that Jesus Christ was and is God.
We know He loves us by what He did for us.
Jesus spoke about Adam and Eve as being real people.
He spoke about Genesis as if it was true.
If anyone would know the truth, it would be Jesus.
Do not believe the words of people who don't WANT to believe there is a God.
If they did believe in God, then they would be guilty before Him,
and they would have to be accountable to Him,
and they are not willing to admit that.
I think that God would respect an honest search for the truth
I guess this would bring up the question as to what "having the law" means. This is where we disagree. If someone is told the law, does he have it? I don't think so. I think someone "has the law" when he has accepted the law, not just when he has heard it. I don't think any amount of discussing it will make us agree on this issue- both of us have read the Bible and applied our own understanding of it (even though like you pointed out the proverbs warned against our own understanding, everyone uses it). I'm not saying I'm definitely right, but when I read the Bible, that's how I understand it, just as how when you read the Bible, you understand it a different way. Just like how the tons of different denominations read the Bible, and understand it a different way.
In all honesty, i avoid them like the plague--so no, i cannot. However, when wandering over to the atheist side of the fence for some stimulating conversation, this appears to be the basic assumption upon which our conversations hinge. Like parrots they continually croak: "PROVE IT, PROVE IT, PROVE IT" and then refuse all offered proof as "subjective."I could say the same thing about sites like AiG and ICR, just from the opposite viewpoint. And let's not forget that there are several such sites out there that clearly state that they are starting on the basis of the Bible being true. Can you show me even one atheistic website that claims that it starts from the assumption that the Bible is false?
Pascal's Wager, very well. Let's look at each option in turn, shall we?
Option 1: If there's no God and you believe, then you lose nothing.
If God doesn't exist, what has the believer lost? They have lost all the time that they spent in Church being told they were sinners bound for hell, when they could have been out in the real world making that real world a better place to live.
Option 2: If there is a God and you believe, you get into heaven.
If God does exist, what has the believer lost? Nothing - provided it is YOUR God! If it's a different God, however, and you've been worshipping the wrong God all your life, then not only will the real God be annoyed that you haven't believed in him, he'll also be annoyed that you've believed in a false God! And considering that there have been around 2500 Gods worshipped by people across the world throughout history, odds are pretty slim you picked the right God. Or did you examine every God and every religion before making your choice?
The statement itself is true enough. Unfortunately, however, the premise it is based upon--"that there is no God"--is false.Option 3: If there's no God and you don't believe, again you lose nothing.
If God doesn't exist, what has the unbeliever lost? Nothing. This is the only instance where the person in question loses nothing.
Unfortunately, with all those quotes regarding works which you have ripped out of context, you neglected our Lord's teaching on what the work is which God accepts:Option 4: If there is a God and you don't believe, then you go to hell.
If God does exist, what does the unbeliever lose? His soul - IF God is a petty small minded being who cares nothing for how good a person is and cares only for what the person believes. But is this really how the God of the Bible judges people? No, not according to the Bible itself:
So you can see that the atheist, despite not believing, will lose NOTHING provided that he is a good person.
In the first place, there is no real possibility of an atheist living a "good" life because, having turned their back on God Who is the source and author of all GOOD, they would in the first place have no clue as to what a "good life"--a life pleasing to God--would be and, secondly, without God's Power, ministered through the Holy Spirit, there is no way the goal of being"good"--according to God's definition--could be reached even if it were known.So, it doesn't matter if God exists or doesn't exist, not when it comes down to my eternal soul. Because any just God will judge me for who I am, and not what I believe, and, as I try to live a good life, I have nothing to worry about.
Why in the world would i be insulted--knowing the statement was false? Actually, it would just strengthen my sense of pity for them in their darkness, disbelief, and lack of contact with reality.Wow, this is one of the most condescending things I have ever seen posted by anyone. You'd be pretty insulted if I said that Christians above all other people deserve the most pity.
In all honesty, i avoid them like the plague--so no, i cannot. However, when wandering over to the atheist side of the fence for some stimulating conversation, this appears to be the basic assumption upon which our conversations hinge. Like parrots they continually croak: "PROVE IT, PROVE IT, PROVE IT" and then refuse all offered proof as "subjective."
Well, let's see--atheists have given us The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, The Peoples' Republic of China, legalized abortion, the removal of prayers from the schools and any mention of God or Godly values from the Public Forum, they have undermined all the Godly principles upon which this Country was founded, etc. Not my idea of making the world a better place.
i, on the other hand, among other things, spend happy hours each week in Church surrounded by people whom i love and who love me, i have been freed of alcoholism and drug addiction, and i have been transformed from a mindless preditory animal into something resembling a human being. You are right, though, that there are some sacrifices to be made--i can't commit adultery, i can watch the legalized pornography produced by Larry Flynt and other atheists, i can't kill unborn children for a living, etc. Still, i think i made a good tradeoff.
Yes, as a matter of fact i spent about 40 years of my life examining every god and every religion before making my choice. i chose the only one which was able to PROVE itself to me by its workings in my life and the wonderful changes it has wrought--workings and changes which it promised and delivered upon, something no other religion was able to do. JESUS CHRIST PROVED HIMSELF OVER AND OVER TO ME THAT HE IS EXACTLY WHO HE CLAIMS TO BE.
The statement itself is true enough. Unfortunately, however, the premise it is based upon--"that there is no God"--is false.
Unfortunately, with all those quotes regarding works which you have ripped out of context, you neglected our Lord's teaching on what the work is which God accepts: "THEN THEY ASKED HIM, 'WHAT MUST WE DO TO DO THE WORKS GOD REQUIRES?'
"JESUS ANSWERED, 'THE WORK OF GOD IS THIS: TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT.' "(John 6:28, 29)
In the first place, there is no real possibility of an atheist living a "good" life because, having turned their back on God Who is the source and author of all GOOD, they would in the first place have no clue as to what a "good life"--a life pleasing to God--would be
and, secondly, without God's Power, ministered through the Holy Spirit, there is no way the goal of being"good"--according to God's definition--could be reached even if it were known.
Scripture tells us that "God alone is good." (Luke 10:19) The only way we can become "good" is by having God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us. This indwelling is, of course, not available to those who do not even believe in God in the first place, and therefore they can never be "good" in any meaningful spiritual sense of the word.
Why in the world would i be insulted--knowing the statement was false? Actually, it would just strengthen my sense of pity for them in their darkness, disbelief, and lack of contact with reality.
i do not think it condescending to be concerned over those who, through willful ignorance of the TRUTH, have placed their eternal happiness in serious jeopardy.
Perhaps you can answer a question for me: In the atheist logo or symbol the brain area is blackened in and dark. Why is that?
Not exactly, but i am guilty of using second-hand information. During occasional wanderings in the atheist debate Forum--MISSION: Apologetics--i have encountered much "information" gleaned from Websites providing heavily skewed, inaccurate, and rather humerous (if the issue weren't so all-important) information regarding the Bible and its believers. i did check the sites to verify that they existed, but i spent no time reading their offerings. MY BAD!Ah, so when you said, "But it is an even risker proposition getting information from an atheist/agnostic Website in that the agenda there is a desperate--if laughable--attempt to prove that the Bible must be false" you knew this how? You were guessing perhaps? Oh, naughty, you're not using a strawman argument, are you?
My friend--come on now. All of the original formulators and utilizers of communism--Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Engels, Mao, etc.--were atheists, were they not? In all countries where communists were able to gain control, was not one of the first acts of the communist government to abolish and persecute--with intent to destroy--all religious practices, especially Christian?Why do you blame communism on atheism? You can understand the differnece between a political opinion and a religious one, can't you?
It affects me because the slaughter of innocent children by the millions is happening in MY country, in part financed by MY tax dollars, and i am, in a sense, just as guilty as the executioner (i can't say "doctor") who wields the scapel. Have you ever seen what an unborn child looks like after a "suction abortion"--i have, and it effected me, and continues to effect me, to the point of tears!As for legalised abortion, I don't see how that has any effect on the life of someone who believes abortion is wrong. If Susan has an abortion, how does that effect you?
The millions upon millions who died in Russia, China, North Korea, etc. for a start. Check your history books for verification or try Google for facts and figures. A rough estimate appears to be 100 million plus or minus.And let's not forget all the atrocities that have been committed in the name of the Christian God. How many atrocities can you name that are directly attributable to atheism (please provide unbiased sources to support your claims).
That was not the question--you implied that Christians are somehow "deprived" of a full life experience by the moral code by which they live, and i was attempting to show that far from losing any happiness in life, a Christian experiences life to the fullest, as our Lord promised, "EVERYONE WHO HAS LEFT HOUSES OR BROTHERS OR SISTERS OR FATHER OR MOTHER OR CHILDREN OR FIELDS FOR MY SAKE WILL RECEIVE A HUNDRED TIMES AS MUCH AND ALSO WILL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE." (Matthew 19:29) and "I HAVE COME THAT THEY MAY HAVE LIFE, AND HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY." (John 10:10) i have found that these promises, and is true of all of God's other promises, have been proven true.And spending happy hours with people you love, being free of drugs and alcohol are impossible for non-religious people?
i have seen what humans--myself included--without God are like and what they are capable of doing--so YES, i do indeed have a pretty low opinion of myself--and all human beings--without God.And if you think that you'd be a "mindless preditory animal" without religion, you must have a pretty low opinion of yourself.
Because we were created by God, ONLY GOD is capable of directing our lives so that we realize the potential with which He has endowed us. Christianity is God's blueprint for our lives--our "Owners Manual" if you will.Why can you only get these things from religion?
My friend, i have mentioned several times that i have proved over and over that my Lord Jesus Christ is, indeed, who He claims to be and have proved, over and over again, that He delivers on His promises. i have investigated--over the course of my life--all the religions you mention and a bunch more, and found them all to be dead ends. i surrendered to Christianity on the basis of its TRUTH proven by its POWER, and nothing else.Wow, you sound just as convinced as any number of Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc... What makes them wrong and you right? Argument from personal experience isn't a very good way to prove your point. How do you make sure you are right?
The existence of God cannot be proved except by personal experience. i can't "show you" anything--it is up to you to follow the finger and see the moon.And yet you can't show me why. Unsupported claims sway me very little.
BINGO! Yes, FAITH IS THE BASIS OF EVERYTHING. The only people who get caught in the trap of using out-of-context Scriptural texts are those with an agenda. Christians have no such agenda--their only desire being to grow in knowledge of the TRUTH, not to refute it or escape from it.And that sounds like faith to me. This is just an example of how the many contradicting viewpoints in the Bible can be used by people to support the position they wish to support.
Wow, without even knowing me you've already judged me as a bad person.
Yes, and in this case it is supremely and eternally true.A common advertising technique: "Our product is the only way you can get what you want!"
i understand and accept the truth of this statement. This is why i avoid debates in the MISSION: General Apologetics Forum where our discussion would normally be taking place. Perhaps you are lost?Yeah, that works wonderful - provided you already believe. However, I do not, so you'll find that quoting Bible passages to me is about as effective as me quoting paragraphs from The Silmarillion to you. In other words, it has no effect.
i do not have a low opinion of atheists--i HAVE A LOW OPINION OF ATHEISM. Atheists are the beloved creations of our Heavenly Father every bit as much as Christians are--they are just trapped in darkness and have not yet discovered the existence of the LIGHT. This doesn't make them "bad" or the other words you feel you are being insulted by--it just makes them deprived of the TRUTH.Knowledge that the statement is false does not remove the insult. You have spoken lies about me, and that is enough to cause insult. And your low opinion of me and all atheists that you form without even bothering to know who we are tells us a great deal about what sort of person you are. And if Christianity results in that, then you've driven me even further from it.
Yes, i can see why you feel that.Again, the thinly veiled insults! You're one of the rudest people I've ever met.
Basket speaks rightly
Tiberius, just settle down, and perhaps he will. If he does not, then prove you are the better person.
Ephraim c'mon man, "...I say unto you, love your enemies"
MY BROTHER,Well, whether or not he is an "enemy" is a pov thing really
i wouldn't necessarily agree that "conflict" creates "enemies"--or vice versa--especially in the case of people like our friend Tiberius. He is opinionated, articulate, reasonably well mannered (at least when compared with me), and responsive. He is in no way an enemy but a brother of the same Father who has wandered out of the Light and into the darkness, probably through no fault of his own--perhaps a prodigal son who has not gotten hungry yet.In my eyes, he presents conflict, and is therefore an enemy.
Well, in the case of atheists--it you really love them you will NOT respect his/her beliefs but will confront the falsity of them in every way possible and at every opportunity. An atheist's beliefs--or rather LACK of Belief--will, as you know, lead them into eternal unhappiness, and you wouldn't want that to happen to anyone you love and care about--JESUS CERTAINLY DIDN'T.I then love my enemy by respecting his ways.
MY BROTHER,
i have no idea what a "pov thing" might be.
i wouldn't necessarily agree that "conflict" creates "enemies"--or vice versa--especially in the case of people like our friend Tiberius. He is opinionated, articulate, reasonably well mannered (at least when compared with me), and responsive. He is in no way an enemy but a brother of the same Father who has wandered out of the Light and into the darkness, probably through no fault of his own--perhaps a prodigal son who has not gotten hungry yet.
"AS IRON SHARPENS IRON, SO ONE MAN SHARPENS ANOTHER." (Proverbs 27:17) Discussions with those of opposing views force me to understand myself and my views and beliefs better and to articulate them more clearly. i assume this is true for Tiberius, who seems more intelligent than to just be arguing for the sake of arguing.
I assume it stands for "point of view". When considering who your enemy is, it all comes down to point of view.
Would that your view had prevailed in 1054--then we would still be one Church as our Lord intended!I agree- just because someone has a different point of view than you- that doesn't necessarily make them an "enemy".
Again--Jesus had not enemies, and Scripture states that we must, "LET THE SAME MIND BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS." (Philippians 2:5)I would consider someone to be an enemy only when they mean harm to me or things I care about.
My friend--come on now. All of the original formulators and utilizers of communism--Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Engels, Mao, etc.--were atheists, were they not? In all countries where communists were able to gain control, was not one of the first acts of the communist government to abolish and persecute--with intent to destroy--all religious practices, especially Christian?
Has not the experiences of those under communist rule taught us what the consequence to a society is of turning from God? And yet the atheists in this country and elsewhere in the West have embarked on the same path--and the results will be exactly the same as the experiences of Russia, China, Vietman, etc. Man without God is just another animal--highly evolved, perhaps, but an animal for all that! [/B](Correct me if i am wrong and have misunderstood the atheist messiah Darwin.)
It affects me because the slaughter of innocent children by the millions is happening in MY country, in part financed by MY[/B] tax dollars, and i am, in a sense, just as guilty as the executioner (i can't say "doctor") who wields the scapel. Have you ever seen what an unborn child looks like after a "suction abortion"--i have, and it effected me, and continues to effect me, to the point of tears!
[/COLOR][/SIZE]i do not regret that i lack an atheistic sense of dispassion in this matter!
The millions upon millions who died in Russia, China, North Korea, etc. for a start. Check your history books for verification or try Google for facts and figures. A rough estimate appears to be 100 million plus or minus.
There have indeed been atrocities and deaths "IN THE NAME OF THE CHRISTIAN GOD" throughout history--the "Crusades" and the "Inquisition" being major examples--but these atrocities and deaths were committed in direct disobedience to the wishes, commandments, and example of the Christian God.
That was not the question--you implied that Christians are somehow "deprived" of a full life experience by the moral code by which they live, and i was attempting to show that far from losing any happiness in life, a Christian experiences life to the fullest, as our Lord promised, "EVERYONE WHO HAS LEFT HOUSES OR BROTHERS OR SISTERS OR FATHER OR MOTHER OR CHILDREN OR FIELDS FOR MY SAKE WILL RECEIVE A HUNDRED TIMES AS MUCH AND ALSO WILL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE." [/B](Matthew 19:29) and "I HAVE COME THAT THEY MAY HAVE LIFE, AND HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY." (John 10:10) i have found that these promises, and is true of all of God's other promises, have been proven true.
i have seen what humans--myself included--without God are like and what they are capable of doing--so YES, i do indeed have a pretty low opinion of myself--and all human beings--without God.
Again, you might refer to Communist Russia, China, North Korea, to see what a society without God is like, rather than smugly thinking, as you reap the moral benefits of living in the remanents of a formerly God-directed nation, that everything is cool, God is not necessary, and human beings are admirable creatures.
Because we were created by God, ONLY GOD is capable of directing our lives so that we realize the potential with which He has endowed us. Christianity is God's blueprint for our lives--our "Owners Manual" if you will.
To keep things in perspective, you might compare Jesus' two commandments--"LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, AND SPIRIT, AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" with Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" proclamation.
My friend, i have mentioned several times that i have proved over and over that my Lord Jesus Christ is, indeed, who He claims to be and have proved, over and over again, that He delivers on His promises. i have investigated--over the course of my life--all the religions you mention and a bunch more, and found them all to be dead ends. i surrendered to Christianity on the basis of its TRUTH proven by its POWER, and nothing else.
The existence of God cannot be proved except by personal experience. i can't "show you" anything--it is up to you to follow the finger and see the moon.
BINGO! Yes, FAITH IS THE BASIS OF EVERYTHING. The only people who get caught in the trap of using out-of-context Scriptural texts are those with an agenda. Christians have no such agenda--their only desire being to grow in knowledge of the TRUTH, not to refute it or escape from it.
Nowhere have i said or implied that you are "a bad person" in the sense of being "evil" nor do i believe this.
My point was that it is impossible to be "good" in God's eyes apart from following what He has commanded us to do in order to become truly "GOOD"--i.e., living lives guided and powered by His indwelling Holy Spirit, seeking to regain the image and likeness of His Son in which we were created.
Yes, and in this case it is supremely and eternally true.
i understand and accept the truth of this statement. This is why i avoid debates in the MISSION: General Apologetics Forum where our discussion would normally be taking place. Perhaps you are lost?
i do not have a low opinion of atheists--i HAVE A LOW OPINION OF ATHEISM. Atheists are the beloved creations of our Heavenly Father every bit as much as Christians are--they are just trapped in darkness and have not yet discovered the existence of the LIGHT. This doesn't make them "bad" or the other words you feel you are being insulted by--it just makes them deprived of the TRUTH.
They are not the same thing, but whenever communism arises, it seems to always be paired with atheism. There can be atheism without communism obviously, but I can't think of a communist state that had a religious majority.Still, the government systems they created were as a result of their desire for power, not neccessarily their religious view. You also seem to be saying that atheism and communism are the same thing.
Well, so far, Christianity seems to be a decent religion to base a country around. The majority of the developed countries have a Christian majority over other religions. Most of Europe, North America, and Australia is made up of Christians and Non-religious people, with a much smaller percentage of other religions. There are exceptions of course- Dubai for example with it's impressive civil engineering projects. Buddhist areas also seem to do extremely well, not materially of course but morally- I'd say more moral than Christian countries.Secondly, what about all those countries that are not based on Christianity?
I think he was referring to the definition of "good" that Jesus used, and according to him nobody is good except God. Atheists can certainly be "good" by human standards, just like Christians.You said: "there is no real possibility of an atheist living a "good" life"
We must have different views on what the opposite of Good is.
Ah, so when you said that non-believers couldn't live a "good life", you were just saying that they weren't believers.