Science is bothering me.

Tiberius

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In the first place, you have no real desire for answers because, in your chosen position of disbelief, you have already rejected them--no matter what they might be. Your search for TRUTH apparently ended long ago. All that is left is the pursuit of maintaining delusion.

Secondly, the answering of questions for the purpose of providing material for more questions is an exercise in futility--kind of like a mouse on a treadmill running hard but getting nowhere. i went through, responding line by line, to several of your "shopping list" of question. It is too tedious a process to continue--especially when it is to no purpose. You have stated before that you have examined Christian beliefs and found them wanting. Who in the world do you think i am that i can possibly add anything new to what you have already heard and rejected?

Lastly, this is a Christian Advice Forum. The proper place for utilizing your debating skills would be the "Questions By Unbelievers Forum" as previously suggested.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED!


A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

When you refuse to consider that your position may be wrong, that is called being close-minded.

If you have the truth, then surely that truth will be undeniable when it is examined. I have examined the evidence presented by you and others and found it wanting. If you genuinely have the truth it will stamnd up to legitimate enquiry.

And my intial post in this thread was based on the rules. I posted:

Just remember that science is the study of God's creation, so by studying science (valid science, that is), you are studying God;'s creation first hand, instead of from the perspective of people who lived 2000 years or more ago.

I've noticed that websites like AiG often don't give an accurate view of science. They ignore some science which disproves what they have to say. It's a risky thing, getting your science from an apologetic website, because they often filter what they have through their opinion that the Bible must be true, and this leads to them having incorrect information. Try to find several different sources - including some non-Christian sources - that all agree to give you the best chance of finding the most accurate information.

To me, that is a "Christian" response - Study God's direct work rather than interpretted account of it. How is it un-Christian? The debate started when you challenged my advice to seek unbiased sources.

Anyway, if you'd like to move our discussion to a thread in a more appropriate section so you can answer the questions I posed, I'd be more than happy to do so.
 
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ephraimanesti

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When you refuse to consider that your position may be wrong, that is called being close-minded.
No, it means that i have experientially proved to my own satisfaction that the TRUTH is true.

However, it IS true that once a person has "tasted and seen that the Lord is good", his mind does indeed close to those who deny the truth of what he has experienced for himself.


If you have the truth, then surely that truth will be undeniable when it is examined. I have examined the evidence presented by you and others and found it wanting. If you genuinely have the truth it will stamnd up to legitimate enquiry.
i do not have the truth; THE TRUTH HAS ME!

If you indeed have examined all the evidence and found it wanting, why in the world are you wasting your time hanging out here belaboring points which you have already "disproved" to your own satisfaction. (My guess would be that you debate in order to manifest your mental superiority and polemic prowness, which is a very poor substitute for seeking the truth.)


To me, that is a "Christian" response - Study God's direct work rather than interpretted account of it.
i AM God's direct work, and the more i study myself and what my Lord has done in my life, the more i glorify my Maker!

Anyway, if you'd like to move our discussion to a thread in a more appropriate section so you can answer the questions I posed, I'd be more than happy to do so.
As i stated in the previous post, there is absolutely no point to my answering the questions you pose as you have already heard the answers many times and judged them lacking in validity. i have nothing new to offer you, and i have more important things to do then to play mind games with others in order to feed their need for self-reasurring feelings of intellectual superiority.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED!


A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim
 
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hsilgne

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From what I recall, the fertilized egg begins by performing tasks based on its genetic coding, and responds to hormones in the mother's womb.

Observing this does not tell us why it happens or what causes this to happen.



Well, in general relativity it's explained as acceleration due to the curvature of spacetime, which is bent by masses; like how marbles might bend the surface of a trampoline.


While it attempts to tell us what is happening, this theory does not tell us why it happens.


I think this is a variation of William Paley's example of finding a watch in a field...

May very well be. :wave:
 
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Ainustorm

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MY FRIEND,

If it were just me, what you say could quite possibly be true. However, given that my experience has been duplicated by millions upon millions over the past 2000 years of the Christian era--and a further multitude of millions in the 6000 years before that as chronicled in the Old Testament dealings of God with His people--and, on the other hand, those who state that they have "honestly sought the Lord" and "have not found Him" are a distinct miniscule minority in comparison, in my puzzlement and sadness regarding the darkness in which you personally remain stuck, i would have to say that something somehow is amiss on your end, because it is very obvious that God eternally remains--alive and well and with arms outstretched to welcome all willing prodigals home--just as He has has been since the beginning of time.

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim


Sorry Tiberius,
But i agree w/ Ephraim. I can say it is the Lord that has reached out to me. The problem of searchin is many search with their mind, and not their heart. I can say with knowledge you can understand somethings, but it is passion from the heart that allows you to take in that knowledge w/ discovery. If you have searched half-heartedly, then yes... you havent truelly searched. If you think it is hard being a Christian, it is as well. We are to be different from this world state of norm. I am sadden you were not able to see TRUTH. Because if you were truelly searching for God then you would have found Him.

We feel His presense clearly everyday. Like 2day, it started out pretty bad... but instead of feelin sorry for myself. I surrendered my frustrations to Him. He comforted me. I felt Him say all will be ok, trust in me. We have hard times and good times. We just run to Him when it seems to hard to handle or celebrate w/ Him when things work out. He is real... it isnt a feelin in our heads. To real to be such an imaginative thought. As Ephraim stated... many have had the samethin happen. To have sooo many feel the same... that must hint to you, just mayb i should search again. And this time with my heart... seek the truth.

God Bless!
 
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Basket

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Basket said:
From what I recall, the fertilized egg begins by performing tasks based on its genetic coding, and responds to hormones in the mother's womb.

Observing this does not tell us why it happens or what causes this to happen.

Er... I don't quite get what you're saying. Eggs and sperm are living cells just like most other cells in our body. They don't just suddenly "come alive" after fertilization. Is that what you were thinking? If not, then you'll need to explain to me what you mean a little more.

Believe it or not, as multicellular organisms, we are composed of trillians of individual cells, and each individual cell is an organism in its own right, working together in a humongous colony that is our body. When one of them goes out of line due to a mutation and decides to start multiplying on its own, it's called cancer.

Basket said:
(talking about gravity) Well, in general relativity it's explained as acceleration due to the curvature of spacetime, which is bent by masses; like how marbles might bend the surface of a trampoline.

hsilgne said:
While it attempts to tell us what is happening, this theory does not tell us why it happens.

I haven't read in detail about the theory of general relativity, and I'm sure it gets complicated pretty fast. I'm guessing gravity works this way because that's the way the universe formed. It's part of the universe's mechanics; its structure. It's somewhat like how the basic properties of Euclidean geometry lead to lines and circles and squares and polygons, and how the properties of those lead to mathematical formulae for determining their angles from the length of their sides, and so on.

Basket said:
I think this is a variation of William Paley's example of finding a watch in a field...

hsilgne said:
May very well be. :wave:

Okay then :wave:
 
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Ainustorm

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Okay, let's all be nice to each other and happy. Sounds great.

How you go from that to the God of the Bible being the only possible option is beyond me. Surely we can be good to people even without God, right?

Out of curiosity, which set of the ten commandments? There are several, as I recall.

And do you believe that the laws laid down in the Old Testament still apply?

Well if you sctually studied the word, you could answer those question yourself. You should know that Jesus created the new covenant, which is based upon the Old Testiment Laws. We are to learn from history. So the lessons of the Old Testiment ought to be used in our lives. The New Testiment laws are based on those that Jesus stated... Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind... the second is like it... Love your neighbor as your self. There is more commands in the new... which are like the old commandments. So read the scripture before misquoting and using it wrong. We learn from history... the same with the Old Testiment. There alot to learn from the Old... so yeah i do go by the Old... especially when the new restates it. By the way... Though shall not kill (old)... (new) Dont commit murder, plus If you hate your brother in your heart, you have commited murder.




Ah, but if a person actually chooses to misunderstand, wouldn't they need to know the correct interpretation in order to make sure they refuse to interpret it that way?


If they are saved, then the Holy Spirit will indwell them. Because of the Spirit we are able to Interpret scripture. Also if we dont search scripture, then we wont be able to interpret it accurate. So an unsaved person will not be able to interpret scripture correctly. Also if he or she is searching with their hearts and mind... then they will find the truth.


If God doesn't like homosexuality, he should have made it impossible to be gay.

Well God gave us free choice... we brought sin into the world... it is our own sin that Homosexuality is impossible. Only sinful mind could create such a disgusting sin. Dont blame God.... it is man's fault for disobeying God.


So you are saying that it's impossible that people were simply being nice to each other?


As an unsaved sinner no.... because our intentions are not. Because even when you do "good", you only do it to feel good. Not necessarily to help just to help, out of love. As Christians... it is the Holy Spirit and Love for God is what directs us to do good.


Then I can sell my daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7? What's a good price for today's market?

Do you burn bulls upon the alter as described in Leviticus 1:9, and what do your neighbours think?

And am I allowed to kill people who work on Sunday, as instructed by Exodus 35:2?

Now, unless you do these things (and the countless others as instructed by the Bible), I think you're being a bit hypocritical when you say that we must follow ALL scripture when you yourself refuse to obey such plainly spelled out rules.

And why don't you kill people who work on Sundays when your own holy book tells you too?

As i said above... New covenant... renews old laws... and consequences. So we arent being a hypocrit, you just arent study scripture right. As i said... truelly learn scripture before using it. Now you are showing ignorance to something you supposedly studied.


Then what's your problem? No one can be good in the way you describe, so isn't it a little hypocritical for you to bag out atheists for something you're guilty of yourself?

We are sinners too, only we are saved by Grace. We havent created ourselves as God's, but have humbly given our lives to one who spared ours. We all deserve death, but Jesus pardoned us before God. We "bag out" as you put it because we are concerned about your sould. Internaty is for ever, friend. Wont you feel better knowin that you could be somewhere better than here, with a God who loves you. He is as supreme judge... it is His purity and holiness that justifies Him sending us to death. We sinned... penalty of sin is death. By the holy blood of the LAMB are we not to be condemned to death (spiritual). Is is pointed to all men to die and then the judgement. Dont let this opportunity pass to see the truth you longed for. Repent, accept what He has done, and live this life for Him. That is what makes us different from an atheist. I am a Sinner saved by Grace (jesus). God Bless Friend!
 
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sageoffools

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Fodera, Let me encourage you to read the book "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis. Although this book does not really discuss religion from a science perspective I personally have never read or heard anyone argue so well for Christianity based solely on reason and logic. Secondly, please remember that it is easy to find what you are looking for, if you look long enough. Evolutionists seem to keep finding "proof" of evolution because they twist their findings to mean what they want them to mean. You say that your faith is being tested by "science" but I wonder, how much have you actually studied either the science of the Bible, or the science of the world. As you begin to look at evolutionary science in depth, you will begin to see the inconsistencies and flaws that evolutionary scientists overlook. You will also see that evolutionary science "facts" keep changing. Scientists claim this is because of the evolution of their understanding when really it is because their "facts" are wrong, they have to keep changing "science" to fit their beliefs. (E.g. the recent news story detailing the finding of the ape fossil that "pushed the date of the human ape split back 10-15 million years") Additionally, as you study the science of the Bible you will find that the Bible has never changed its standing on science and yet has never been proven wrong, it has only been theorized as being wrong. Let me just share one quote from one of the researchers that was working on the project that investigated this ape fossil "The human fossil record goes back 6 to 7 million years, but we know nothing about how the human line actually emerged from apes" For humans that have been studying and standing on evolution as fact for many decades this is not a very confident statement.
Do not be disuaded in your search by those that condemn your quest for answers. Even John the Baptist, while he was in prision questioned whether Jesus was the true Messiah. Keep searching, but truly search with your mind open to God.
 
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Basket

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I think that if there's anyone twisting facts, it's the people who spread the information, not the ones doing the research. Here is one of the more reliable news reports.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/aug/23/evolution

The original Nature article is here, but you can only view the abstract (unless you happen to have a subscription, which I don't).

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v448/n7156/abs/nature06113.html

Okay, this is my own explanation here:

Great apes are the apes which include orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans. By comparing the differences in genetic makeup, scientists have been able to guestimate at how long ago the different species diverged.

Evolutionary divergence is when two populations of the same species separate (often geographically) and their genomes (the overall genetic makeup of the population) change to the point that they cannot or will not interbreed anymore. At that point the two groups are considered two separate species.

Anyway, orangutans split off from the rest of the great apes first, then gorillas, and then finally chimps and humans. Here's a diagram that illustrates that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hominidae.PNG

Hominidae is the family name of great apes. Pongo is orangutans, Pan is chimps.

Now, as the Guardian article says:
"Geneticists have previously put the date at which the human and chimpanzee lineage split from gorillas at around 7m years ago, with humans and chimps diverging more recently, at 5m years ago."

And in the previous sentence it says what the new finding suggests:
"The finding, if confirmed, will redraw the evolutionary tree of primates, suggesting that humans and chimpanzees must have split from their gorilla-like ancestors 3m years earlier than thought."

There you have it. From what I understand, there have been very few fossils found from this geologic layer / time period, and so far they've been basing what they know off of the genetic differences stuff.


Okay, I found an article from National Geographic, so I'll add information from it into the mix.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/08/070822-fossil-ape.html

Here are some select quotes that give new info.

For years scientists have been unable to find fossils of direct ancestors of modern great apes in Africa dating back to between 8 million and 14 million years ago.

But the fossil record of great apes—including gorillas, chimpanzees, and bonobos—is abundant in Asia and Europe during this time.

Experts had speculated that the common ancestor of all apes and humans had left Africa and split off into separate species.

Among the new species was the ancestor of African apes and humans, which returned to Africa sometime around seven million years ago. Molecular analyses of fossils from Europe and later African species seemed to back up this hypothesis.

The recent fossil discovery, however, means that ancient gorilla-like apes lived in Africa as far back as ten million years ago.

(the article discusses reasons why it might not be a gorilla ancestor, then...)

Nonetheless, the experts say, the find does seem poised to overturn old ideas that were based on the lack of a fossil record rather than on solid evidence.

"We just can't use the absence of evidence as an evidence of absence," said Yohannes Haile-Selassie, a paleontologist with the Cleveland Museum of Natural History.

It's possible Suwa and his colleagues will accumulate more fossils that might support the theory of an earlier evolutionary split between apes and humans, Haile-Selassie said.

Hopefully it should give you an idea of what's going on behind the scenes. Certain aspects of scientific theories are more unreliable than others, especially where evidence is limited. This happens to be one of those cases. The conclusion so far is that we don't know whether it is a gorilla ancestor that has already split off from the family tree. I guess we'll have to just wait and see.

*finally done writing, yay*
 
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ephraimanesti

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Hopefully it should give you an idea of what's going on behind the scenes. Certain aspects of scientific theories are more unreliable than others, especially where evidence is limited. This happens to be one of those cases. The conclusion so far is that we don't know whether it is a gorilla ancestor that has already split off from the family tree. I guess we'll have to just wait and see.

*finally done writing, yay*

BUT, what does all this interesting but irrelevant trivia have to do with the question of whether or not Jesus Christ is our Lord, God, and Savior, and whether or not we have surrendered our lives to Him?

ephaim
 
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Basket

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BUT, what does all this interesting but irrelevant trivia have to do with the question of whether or not Jesus Christ is our Lord, God, and Savior, and whether or not we have surrendered our lives to Him?

ephaim

Hum... I suppose it is irrelevant. I've been overly talkative lately.
 
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