Science is bothering me.

[Octeron]

i think you have it backwards--ONLY God can prove answers; science can only pose questions.

ephraim

This is an intriguing statement. I apologise if I am being slow, but could you please explain more clearly what you mean by this?

 

[ephraimanesti]

This is an intriguing statement. I apologise if I am being slow, but could you please explain more clearly what you mean by this?

Well, actually it is not really "an intriguing statement"--it is a stupid typo on my part.

It should have read:
i think you have it backwards--ONLY God can provide answers; science can only pose questions.

MY BAD!
ephraim

 

[R3quiem]

Just because it goes against some of your beliefs, this is a ridiculous thing to say. I would say religion gets in the way much more.

If you didn't catch the sarcasm, I apologize.

 

[R3quiem]

ephraim, do you preach in real life? The way you type all this out, with such long posts and in such vivid words, it seems like you've said these things before. Either way, thanks for such a detailed reply.

Firstly, might i point out to you without being offensive that your "picking the one that involves the most love and mercy, and forgiveness of one's enemies" does not necessarily make it true.

I didn't pick that way just because that's how I want it, I pick that way because when I read the Bible, that's how I view God. If he wants us to be merciful and forgiving, then I believe that he himself does the same, and more so than us.

"TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING; IN ALL YOUR WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, AND HE WILL MAKE YOUR PATHS STRAIGHT. DO NOT BE WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES; FEAR THE LORD AND SHUN EVIL" (Proverbs 3:5-7)

This is a tricky subject. If he makes all of out paths straight who believe in him, then there wouldn't be a zillion different Christian denominations. Everyone who reads the Bible tries to understand what God's message is.

Now, as mentioned previously, Scripture states, "INDEED, WHEN GENTILES, WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THINGS REQUIRED BY THE LAW, THEY ARE A LAW FOR THEMSELVES, EVEN THOUGH THEY DO NOT HAVE THE LAW, SINCE THEY SHOW THAT THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCES ALSO BEARING WITNESS, AND THEIR THOUGHTS NOW ACCUSING, NOW EVEN DEFENDING THEM." (Romans 2:14-15)

This says to me that there are other ways of arriving at a total Love of God and neighbor than Christianity--if Christianity isn't an available option. (Please not that we are no talking about atheists of others who have heard the Gospel and willfully rejected it--even though they may appear "loving" and "good" by worldly criteria.) In this regard, Scripture also states, "HE IS THE ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, AND NOT ONLY FOR OURS BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." (I John 2:2)

I guess this would bring up the question as to what "having the law" means. This is where we disagree. If someone is told the law, does he have it? I don't think so. I think someone "has the law" when he has accepted the law, not just when he has heard it. I don't think any amount of discussing it will make us agree on this issue- both of us have read the Bible and applied our own understanding of it (even though like you pointed out the proverbs warned against our own understanding, everyone uses it). I'm not saying I'm definitely right, but when I read the Bible, that's how I understand it, just as how when you read the Bible, you understand it a different way. Just like how the tons of different denominations read the Bible, and understand it a different way.

 

[Tiberius]

But it is an even risker proposition getting information from an atheist/agnostic Website in that the agenda there is a desperate--if laughable--attempt to prove that the Bible must be false.

I could say the same thing about sites like AiG and ICR, just from the opposite viewpoint. And let's not forget that there are several such sites out there that clearly state that they are starting on the basis of the Bible being true. Can you show me even one atheistic website that claims that it starts from the assumption that the Bible is false?

As mentioned in a previous post, science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, and it is by faith that we either believe or disbelieve. However, as Pascal's Wager points out, it makes infinitely more sense to choose, in faith, to believe in God than to choose to disbelieve in His existence. If you believe and are wrong, you have lost nothing but have, in reality, gained a satisfying and fulfilling life full of love and blessings; if you disbelieve and are wrong, you have lost EVERYTHING--no meaningfull life beyond that of an evolved animal [/B](which is how atheists see themselves) now, with eternal darkness to follow.

Pascal's Wager, very well. Let's look at each option in turn, shall we?

***

Option 1: If there's no God and you believe, then you lose nothing.

If God doesn't exist, what has the believer lost? They have lost all the time that they spent in Church being told they were sinners bound for hell, when they could have been out in the real world making that real world a better place to live. They have also lost the truth, by believing something that is false.

***

Option 2: If there is a God and you believe, you get into heaven.

If God does exist, what has the believer lost? Nothing - provided it is YOUR God! If it's a different God, however, and you've been worshipping the wrong God all your life, then not only will the real God be annoyed that you haven't believed in him, he'll also be annoyed that you've believed in a false God! And considering that there have been around 2500 Gods worshipped by people across the world throughout history, odds are pretty slim you picked the right God. Or did you examine every God and every religion before making your choice?

***

Option 3: If there's no God and you don't believe, again you lose nothing.

If God doesn't exist, what has the unbeliever lost? Nothing. This is the only instance where the person in question loses nothing.

***

Option 4: If there is a God and you don't believe, then you go to hell.

If God does exist, what does the unbeliever lose? His soul - IF God is a petty small minded being who cares nothing for how good a person is and cares only for what the person believes. But is this really how the God of the Bible judges people? No, not according to the Bible itself:

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

So you can see that the atheist, despite not believing, will lose NOTHING provided that he is a good person.

***

A recap of the main problems with Pascal's Wager...

1. It does not tell us WHICH God to believe in.
2. Secondly, it is not a proof of God, nor is it even evidence. It's just an argument to entice people to believe out of fear. A person who accepts Pascal's Wager will only believe out of fear, and will be doing it merely to save their own butts. That's not really belief, it's a cheap form of insurance. Surely God will see through it and won't be too happy with those who profess belief for such selfish reasons, right?

So, it doesn't matter if God exists or doesn't exist, not when it comes down to my eternal soul. Because any just God will judge me for who I am, and not what I believe, and, as I try to live a good life, I have nothing to worry about.

By the way, did you know that Pascal's Wager can also be used to get people to believe in Santa Clause?

• If there's no Santa Clause and you believe, then you lose nothing.
• If there is a Santa Clause and you believe, you get presents.
• If there's no Santa Clause and you don't believe, again you lose nothing.
• If there is a Santa Clause and you don't believe, then you get lumps of coal.

So, the odds are more in your favour if you believe in Santa Clause.

Atheists, of all God's creatures, are to be pitied!​

Wow, this is one of the most condescending things I have ever seen posted by anyone. You'd be pretty insulted if I said that Christians above all other people deserve the most pity. Why not come out and insult us to our faces instead of hiding it behind platitudes like this? Why not say, "Pity atheists because they do not believe what we believe and they are poor ignorant people who don't take our story so seriously."

Learn some manners, will you? And treat others with respect instead of making underhanded remarks about how pathetic you think atheists are. This condescending attitude is one of the reasons why so many people have trouble with Christians.

I understand how you feel.
Science is so adamant about there not being a God.

Incorrect. Science does not claim that God isn't real. it just claims that so far, we haven't found anything we need a God to explain. Can you show one experiment performed by a legitimate scientist which claims to have disproved God?

-Science is meant to measure the measurable.
Science cannot measure God because He cannot be measured.
Neither do they measure God because they assume He is not there.

And as such, God is not scientific because he is not falsifiable. Science must be falsifiable, or else it is not science.

Neither Evolution nor Creation can be scientifically proven for they cannot be reproduced in a laboratory.

Science requires that observations can be replicated. The observations on which evolution is based, including comparative anatomy, genetics, and fossils, are replicable. In many cases, you can repeat the observations yourself. Repeatable experiments, including experiments about mutations and natural selection in the laboratory and in the field, also support evolution.

But we do know the Bible is true because of the many many fulfilled prophecies.

There is no way to know that the prophesies were fulfilled.

We know that Jesus Christ was and is God.

Then we must ask ourselves why God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to fogive people for the crimes of others.

We know He loves us by what He did for us.

Such as killing people by drowning, one of the most terrifying ways to die. A loving God who loved people so much that he killed most of them in a way to ensure that their final moments were filled with terror.

Jesus spoke about Adam and Eve as being real people.
He spoke about Genesis as if it was true.
If anyone would know the truth, it would be Jesus.

Even though the genesis accounts contradict known fact and a God should have known better.

Do not believe the words of people who don't WANT to believe there is a God.

In other words, don't listen to people who might change your mind, because you've convinced yourself that you are correct and you don't want to think about it anymore.

If they did believe in God, then they would be guilty before Him,
and they would have to be accountable to Him,
and they are not willing to admit that.

Then we are faced with a God who is so petty as to send kind and decent people to hell for simply having the wrong beliefs.

Oh, and I am more than happy to be accountable before God, if he exists. I think that God would respect an honest search for the truth via testable and verifiable means rather than mindless adherence to words written by men who lived in a culture that ceased to exist thousands of years before any of us were ever born.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

I think that God would respect an honest search for the truth

We can hope

 

[ephraimanesti]

I guess this would bring up the question as to what "having the law" means. This is where we disagree. If someone is told the law, does he have it? I don't think so. I think someone "has the law" when he has accepted the law, not just when he has heard it. I don't think any amount of discussing it will make us agree on this issue- both of us have read the Bible and applied our own understanding of it (even though like you pointed out the proverbs warned against our own understanding, everyone uses it). I'm not saying I'm definitely right, but when I read the Bible, that's how I understand it, just as how when you read the Bible, you understand it a different way. Just like how the tons of different denominations read the Bible, and understand it a different way.

MY BROTHER,

You have lost me. i don't disagree with your statement above, but neither do i see where in fits in what we have been discussing regarding possible means God might use to save those who are not Christians.

HELP!

ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

I could say the same thing about sites like AiG and ICR, just from the opposite viewpoint. And let's not forget that there are several such sites out there that clearly state that they are starting on the basis of the Bible being true. Can you show me even one atheistic website that claims that it starts from the assumption that the Bible is false?

In all honesty, i avoid them like the plague--so no, i cannot. However, when wandering over to the atheist side of the fence for some stimulating conversation, this appears to be the basic assumption upon which our conversations hinge. Like parrots they continually croak: "PROVE IT, PROVE IT, PROVE IT" and then refuse all offered proof as "subjective."

Pascal's Wager, very well. Let's look at each option in turn, shall we?

Option 1: If there's no God and you believe, then you lose nothing.

If God doesn't exist, what has the believer lost? They have lost all the time that they spent in Church being told they were sinners bound for hell, when they could have been out in the real world making that real world a better place to live.

Well, let's see--atheists have given us The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, The Peoples' Republic of China, legalized abortion, the removal of prayers from the schools and any mention of God or Godly values from the Public Forum, they have undermined all the Godly principles upon which this Country was founded, etc. Not my idea of making the world a better place.

i, on the other hand, among other things, spend happy hours each week in Church surrounded by people whom i love and who love me, i have been freed of alcoholism and drug addiction, and i have been transformed from a mindless preditory animal into something resembling a human being. You are right, though, that there are some sacrifices to be made--i can't commit adultery, i can watch the legalized inappropriate contentography produced by Larry Flynt and other atheists, i can't kill unborn children for a living, etc. Still, i think i made a good tradeoff.

Option 2: If there is a God and you believe, you get into heaven.

If God does exist, what has the believer lost? Nothing - provided it is YOUR God! If it's a different God, however, and you've been worshipping the wrong God all your life, then not only will the real God be annoyed that you haven't believed in him, he'll also be annoyed that you've believed in a false God! And considering that there have been around 2500 Gods worshipped by people across the world throughout history, odds are pretty slim you picked the right God. Or did you examine every God and every religion before making your choice?

Yes, as a matter of fact i spent about 40 years of my life examining every god and every religion before making my choice. i chose the only one which was able to PROVE itself to me by its workings in my life and the wonderful changes it has wrought--workings and changes which it promised and delivered upon, something no other religion was able to do. JESUS CHRIST PROVED HIMSELF OVER AND OVER TO ME THAT HE IS EXACTLY WHO HE CLAIMS TO BE.

Option 3: If there's no God and you don't believe, again you lose nothing.
If God doesn't exist, what has the unbeliever lost? Nothing. This is the only instance where the person in question loses nothing.

The statement itself is true enough. Unfortunately, however, the premise it is based upon--"that there is no God"--is false.

Option 4: If there is a God and you don't believe, then you go to hell.

If God does exist, what does the unbeliever lose? His soul - IF God is a petty small minded being who cares nothing for how good a person is and cares only for what the person believes. But is this really how the God of the Bible judges people? No, not according to the Bible itself:

So you can see that the atheist, despite not believing, will lose NOTHING provided that he is a good person.

Unfortunately, with all those quotes regarding works which you have ripped out of context, you neglected our Lord's teaching on what the work is which God accepts:

"THEN THEY ASKED HIM, 'WHAT MUST WE DO TO DO THE WORKS GOD REQUIRES?'

"JESUS ANSWERED, 'THE WORK OF GOD IS THIS: TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT.' " (John 6:28, 29)

So, it doesn't matter if God exists or doesn't exist, not when it comes down to my eternal soul. Because any just God will judge me for who I am, and not what I believe, and, as I try to live a good life, I have nothing to worry about.

In the first place, there is no real possibility of an atheist living a "good" life because, having turned their back on God Who is the source and author of all GOOD, they would in the first place have no clue as to what a "good life"--a life pleasing to God--would be and, secondly, without God's Power, ministered through the Holy Spirit, there is no way the goal of being"good"--according to God's definition--could be reached even if it were known.

Scripture tells us that "God alone is good." (Luke 10:19) The only way we can become "good" is by having God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us. This indwelling is, of course, not available to those who do not even believe in God in the first place, and therefore they can never be "good" in any meaningful spiritual sense of the word.

Wow, this is one of the most condescending things I have ever seen posted by anyone. You'd be pretty insulted if I said that Christians above all other people deserve the most pity.

Why in the world would i be insulted--knowing the statement was false? Actually, it would just strengthen my sense of pity for them in their darkness, disbelief, and lack of contact with reality.

i do not think it condescending to be concerned over those who, through willful ignorance of the TRUTH, have placed their eternal happiness in serious jeopardy.

Perhaps you can answer a question for me: In the atheist logo or symbol the brain area is blackened in and dark. Why is that?

ephraim

 

[Tiberius]

In all honesty, i avoid them like the plague--so no, i cannot. However, when wandering over to the atheist side of the fence for some stimulating conversation, this appears to be the basic assumption upon which our conversations hinge. Like parrots they continually croak: "PROVE IT, PROVE IT, PROVE IT" and then refuse all offered proof as "subjective."

Ah, so when you said, "But it is an even risker proposition getting information from an atheist/agnostic Website in that the agenda there is a desperate--if laughable--attempt to prove that the Bible must be false" you knew this how? You were guessing perhaps? Oh, naughty, you're not using a strawman argument, are you?

Well, let's see--atheists have given us The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, The Peoples' Republic of China, legalized abortion, the removal of prayers from the schools and any mention of God or Godly values from the Public Forum, they have undermined all the Godly principles upon which this Country was founded, etc. Not my idea of making the world a better place.

Why do you blame communism on atheism? You can understand the differnece between a political opinion and a religious one, can't you?

As for legalised abortion, I don't see how that has any effect on the life of someone who believes abortion is wrong. If Susan has an abortion, how does that effect you?

And let's not forget all the atrocities that have been committed in the name of the Christian God. How many atrocities can you name that are directly attributable to atheism (please provide unbiased sources to support your claims).

i, on the other hand, among other things, spend happy hours each week in Church surrounded by people whom i love and who love me, i have been freed of alcoholism and drug addiction, and i have been transformed from a mindless preditory animal into something resembling a human being. You are right, though, that there are some sacrifices to be made--i can't commit adultery, i can watch the legalized inappropriate contentography produced by Larry Flynt and other atheists, i can't kill unborn children for a living, etc. Still, i think i made a good tradeoff.

And spending happy hours with people you love, being free of drugs and alcohol are impossible for non-religious people?

And if you think that you'd be a "mindless preditory animal" without religion, you must have a pretty low opinion of yourself.

Why can you only get these things from religion?

Yes, as a matter of fact i spent about 40 years of my life examining every god and every religion before making my choice. i chose the only one which was able to PROVE itself to me by its workings in my life and the wonderful changes it has wrought--workings and changes which it promised and delivered upon, something no other religion was able to do. JESUS CHRIST PROVED HIMSELF OVER AND OVER TO ME THAT HE IS EXACTLY WHO HE CLAIMS TO BE.

Wow, you sound just as convinced as any number of Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc... What makes them wrong and you right? Argument from personal experience isn't a very good way to prove your point. How do you make sure you are right?

The statement itself is true enough. Unfortunately, however, the premise it is based upon--"that there is no God"--is false.

And yet you can't show me why. Unsupported claims sway me very little.

Unfortunately, with all those quotes regarding works which you have ripped out of context, you neglected our Lord's teaching on what the work is which God accepts: "THEN THEY ASKED HIM, 'WHAT MUST WE DO TO DO THE WORKS GOD REQUIRES?'

"JESUS ANSWERED, 'THE WORK OF GOD IS THIS: TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT.' "(John 6:28, 29)

And that sounds like faith to me. This is just an example of how the many contradicting viewpoints in the Bible can be used by people to support the position they wish to support.

In the first place, there is no real possibility of an atheist living a "good" life because, having turned their back on God Who is the source and author of all GOOD, they would in the first place have no clue as to what a "good life"--a life pleasing to God--would be

Wow, without even knowing me you've already judged me as a bad person.

How wonderfully kind of you.

Read that bit in the Bible about "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Then apply it.

and, secondly, without God's Power, ministered through the Holy Spirit, there is no way the goal of being"good"--according to God's definition--could be reached even if it were known.

A common advertising technique: "Our product is the only way you can get what you want!"

Scripture tells us that "God alone is good." (Luke 10:19) The only way we can become "good" is by having God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us. This indwelling is, of course, not available to those who do not even believe in God in the first place, and therefore they can never be "good" in any meaningful spiritual sense of the word.

Yeah, that works wonderful - provided you already believe. However, I do not, so you'll find that quoting Bible passages to me is about as effective as me quoting paragraphs from The Silmarillion to you. In other words, it has no effect.

Why in the world would i be insulted--knowing the statement was false? Actually, it would just strengthen my sense of pity for them in their darkness, disbelief, and lack of contact with reality.

i do not think it condescending to be concerned over those who, through willful ignorance of the TRUTH, have placed their eternal happiness in serious jeopardy.

Knowledge that the statement is false does not remove the insult. You have spoken lies about me, and that is enough to cause insult. And your low opinion of me and all atheists that you form without even bothering to know who we are tells us a great deal about what sort of person you are. And if Christianity results in that, then you've driven me even further from it.

Perhaps you can answer a question for me: In the atheist logo or symbol the brain area is blackened in and dark. Why is that?

Again, the thinly veiled insults! You're one of the rudest people I've ever met.

 

[Basket]

You're not exactly being polite yourself, you know, Tiberius? Even if it's a reaction to his posts, you should try to keep your cool.

 

[ephraimanesti]

MY FRIEND,

Ah, so when you said, "But it is an even risker proposition getting information from an atheist/agnostic Website in that the agenda there is a desperate--if laughable--attempt to prove that the Bible must be false" you knew this how? You were guessing perhaps? Oh, naughty, you're not using a strawman argument, are you?

Not exactly, but i am guilty of using second-hand information. During occasional wanderings in the atheist debate Forum--MISSION: Apologetics--i have encountered much "information" gleaned from Websites providing heavily skewed, inaccurate, and rather humerous (if the issue weren't so all-important) information regarding the Bible and its believers. i did check the sites to verify that they existed, but i spent no time reading their offerings. MY BAD!

Why do you blame communism on atheism? You can understand the differnece between a political opinion and a religious one, can't you?

My friend--come on now. All of the original formulators and utilizers of communism--Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Engels, Mao, etc.--were atheists, were they not? In all countries where communists were able to gain control, was not one of the first acts of the communist government to abolish and persecute--with intent to destroy--all religious practices, especially Christian?

Has not the experiences of those under communist rule taught us what the consequence to a society is of turning from God? And yet the atheists in this country and elsewhere in the West have embarked on the same path--and the results will be exactly the same as the experiences of Russia, China, Vietman, etc. Man without God is just another animal--highly evolved, perhaps, but an animal for all that! (Correct me if i am wrong and have misunderstood the atheist messiah Darwin.)

As for legalised abortion, I don't see how that has any effect on the life of someone who believes abortion is wrong. If Susan has an abortion, how does that effect you?

It affects me because the slaughter of innocent children by the millions is happening in MY country, in part financed by MY tax dollars, and i am, in a sense, just as guilty as the executioner (i can't say "doctor") who wields the scapel. Have you ever seen what an unborn child looks like after a "suction abortion"--i have, and it effected me, and continues to effect me, to the point of tears!
i do not regret that i lack an atheistic sense of dispassion in this matter!

And let's not forget all the atrocities that have been committed in the name of the Christian God. How many atrocities can you name that are directly attributable to atheism (please provide unbiased sources to support your claims).

The millions upon millions who died in Russia, China, North Korea, etc. for a start. Check your history books for verification or try Google for facts and figures. A rough estimate appears to be 100 million plus or minus.

There have indeed been atrocities and deaths "IN THE NAME OF THE CHRISTIAN GOD" throughout history--the "Crusades" and the "Inquisition" being major examples--but these atrocities and deaths were committed in direct disobedience to the wishes, commandments, and example of the Christian God. Our Lord taught--and demonstrated by His life--that Christians are to love their enemies, not retaliate against those who harm them, not commit murder for any reason or under any pretense, etc. Those who commited the sinful acts to which you refer do not, therefore, qualify to wear the name "Christian" because they have disqualified themselves by their unChristian actions. "Christian" means "Christ-like", and anyone thinking, speaking, or acting in ways opposed to those of Jesus Christ--WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? is a valid measuring tool--in non-Christian, no matter what they profess to be. They will be those of whom our Lord spoke, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT ONLY HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,' did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' THEN I WILL TELL THEM PLAINLY, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU. AWAY FROM ME, YOU EVILDOERS!' " (Matthew 7:21)

And spending happy hours with people you love, being free of drugs and alcohol are impossible for non-religious people?

That was not the question--you implied that Christians are somehow "deprived" of a full life experience by the moral code by which they live, and i was attempting to show that far from losing any happiness in life, a Christian experiences life to the fullest, as our Lord promised, "EVERYONE WHO HAS LEFT HOUSES OR BROTHERS OR SISTERS OR FATHER OR MOTHER OR CHILDREN OR FIELDS FOR MY SAKE WILL RECEIVE A HUNDRED TIMES AS MUCH AND ALSO WILL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE." (Matthew 19:29) and "I HAVE COME THAT THEY MAY HAVE LIFE, AND HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY." (John 10:10) i have found that these promises, and is true of all of God's other promises, have been proven true.

And if you think that you'd be a "mindless preditory animal" without religion, you must have a pretty low opinion of yourself.

i have seen what humans--myself included--without God are like and what they are capable of doing--so YES, i do indeed have a pretty low opinion of myself--and all human beings--without God.

Again, you might refer to Communist Russia, China, North Korea, to see what a society without God is like, rather than smugly thinking, as you reap the moral benefits of living in the remanents of a formerly God-directed nation, that everything is cool, God is not necessary, and human beings are admirable creatures.

Why can you only get these things from religion?

Because we were created by God, ONLY GOD is capable of directing our lives so that we realize the potential with which He has endowed us. Christianity is God's blueprint for our lives--our "Owners Manual" if you will.

To keep things in perspective, you might compare Jesus' two commandments--"LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, AND SPIRIT, AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" with Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" proclamation.

Wow, you sound just as convinced as any number of Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc... What makes them wrong and you right? Argument from personal experience isn't a very good way to prove your point. How do you make sure you are right?

My friend, i have mentioned several times that i have proved over and over that my Lord Jesus Christ is, indeed, who He claims to be and have proved, over and over again, that He delivers on His promises. i have investigated--over the course of my life--all the religions you mention and a bunch more, and found them all to be dead ends. i surrendered to Christianity on the basis of its TRUTH proven by its POWER, and nothing else.

And yet you can't show me why. Unsupported claims sway me very little.

The existence of God cannot be proved except by personal experience. i can't "show you" anything--it is up to you to follow the finger and see the moon.

And that sounds like faith to me. This is just an example of how the many contradicting viewpoints in the Bible can be used by people to support the position they wish to support.

BINGO! Yes, FAITH IS THE BASIS OF EVERYTHING. The only people who get caught in the trap of using out-of-context Scriptural texts are those with an agenda. Christians have no such agenda--their only desire being to grow in knowledge of the TRUTH, not to refute it or escape from it.

ALL CHRISTIANS AGREE ON THE BASICS OF OUR FAITH. It is true there are 1001 different denominations based on the emphasis of some Bible verses over others, but these differences do not affect our common accepts of the basic truths of our faith as spelled out in the Nicene Creed:

The Nicene Creed
​

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Everything else is just frosting on the cake, so to speak.

Wow, without even knowing me you've already judged me as a bad person.

How wonderfully kind of you.

Read that bit in the Bible about "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Then apply it.[/quote]

Nowhere have i said or implied that you are "a bad person" in the sense of being "evil" nor do i believe this. My point was that it is impossible to be "good" in God's eyes apart from following what He has commanded us to do in order to become truly "GOOD"--i.e., living lives guided and powered by His indwelling Holy Spirit, seeking to regain the image and likeness of His Son in which we were created.

A common advertising technique: "Our product is the only way you can get what you want!"

Yes, and in this case it is supremely and eternally true.

Yeah, that works wonderful - provided you already believe. However, I do not, so you'll find that quoting Bible passages to me is about as effective as me quoting paragraphs from The Silmarillion to you. In other words, it has no effect.

i understand and accept the truth of this statement. This is why i avoid debates in the MISSION: General Apologetics Forum where our discussion would normally be taking place. Perhaps you are lost?

Knowledge that the statement is false does not remove the insult. You have spoken lies about me, and that is enough to cause insult. And your low opinion of me and all atheists that you form without even bothering to know who we are tells us a great deal about what sort of person you are. And if Christianity results in that, then you've driven me even further from it.

i do not have a low opinion of atheists--i HAVE A LOW OPINION OF ATHEISM. Atheists are the beloved creations of our Heavenly Father every bit as much as Christians are--they are just trapped in darkness and have not yet discovered the existence of the LIGHT. This doesn't make them "bad" or the other words you feel you are being insulted by--it just makes them deprived of the TRUTH.

Again, the thinly veiled insults! You're one of the rudest people I've ever met.

Yes, i can see why you feel that.

ephraim

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Basket speaks rightly

Tiberius, just settle down, and perhaps he will. If he does not, then prove you are the better person.

Ephraim c'mon man, "...I say unto you, love your enemies"

 

[ephraimanesti]

Basket speaks rightly

Tiberius, just settle down, and perhaps he will. If he does not, then prove you are the better person.

Ephraim c'mon man, "...I say unto you, love your enemies"

MY FRIEND,

i do not in any way, shape, or form consider Tiberius an enemy! He is a beloved child of God just as i am, and therefore we are brothers.

If i did not love him i would not waste time responding to his Posts. i see myself years ago in a lot of what he has to say.

Large fonts, capitalization, and colored type should not be construed as being anything more than they are--a harmless affectation which aids my thinking process. i will grant you, however, that i am not a master of tact.

ephraim

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Well, whether or not he is an "enemy" is a pov thing really

In my eyes, he presents conflict, and is therefore an enemy. I then love my enemy by respecting his ways.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Well, whether or not he is an "enemy" is a pov thing really

MY BROTHER,

i have no idea what a "pov thing" might be.

In my eyes, he presents conflict, and is therefore an enemy.

i wouldn't necessarily agree that "conflict" creates "enemies"--or vice versa--especially in the case of people like our friend Tiberius. He is opinionated, articulate, reasonably well mannered (at least when compared with me), and responsive. He is in no way an enemy but a brother of the same Father who has wandered out of the Light and into the darkness, probably through no fault of his own--perhaps a prodigal son who has not gotten hungry yet.

"AS IRON SHARPENS IRON, SO ONE MAN SHARPENS ANOTHER." (Proverbs 27:17) Discussions with those of opposing views force me to understand myself and my views and beliefs better and to articulate them more clearly. i assume this is true for Tiberius, who seems more intelligent than to just be arguing for the sake of arguing.

I then love my enemy by respecting his ways.

Well, in the case of atheists--it you really love them you will NOT respect his/her beliefs but will confront the falsity of them in every way possible and at every opportunity. An atheist's beliefs--or rather LACK of Belief--will, as you know, lead them into eternal unhappiness, and you wouldn't want that to happen to anyone you love and care about--JESUS CERTAINLY DIDN'T.

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[R3quiem]

MY BROTHER,

i have no idea what a "pov thing" might be.

I assume it stands for "point of view". When considering who your enemy is, it all comes down to point of view.

i wouldn't necessarily agree that "conflict" creates "enemies"--or vice versa--especially in the case of people like our friend Tiberius. He is opinionated, articulate, reasonably well mannered (at least when compared with me), and responsive. He is in no way an enemy but a brother of the same Father who has wandered out of the Light and into the darkness, probably through no fault of his own--perhaps a prodigal son who has not gotten hungry yet.

"AS IRON SHARPENS IRON, SO ONE MAN SHARPENS ANOTHER." (Proverbs 27:17) Discussions with those of opposing views force me to understand myself and my views and beliefs better and to articulate them more clearly. i assume this is true for Tiberius, who seems more intelligent than to just be arguing for the sake of arguing.

I agree- just because someone has a different point of view than you- that doesn't necessarily make them an "enemy".

I would consider someone to be an enemy only when they mean harm to me or things I care about.

 

[ephraimanesti]

I assume it stands for "point of view". When considering who your enemy is, it all comes down to point of view.

AH! Thanks for the info and, yes, "enemy" is indeed a point of view. Jesus, of course, had none--not even those who crucified Him.

I agree- just because someone has a different point of view than you- that doesn't necessarily make them an "enemy".

Would that your view had prevailed in 1054--then we would still be one Church as our Lord intended!

I would consider someone to be an enemy only when they mean harm to me or things I care about.

Again--Jesus had not enemies, and Scripture states that we must, "LET THE SAME MIND BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS." (Philippians 2:5)

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Well, obviously we have different deffenitions of "enemy"

When I say I love my enemies, (and I define enemies as those who in any way conflict with me) I mean that I respect them in that before combat, I may shake their hand, I do not pull dirty tricks, and in the end when my opponent is on the ground, instead of finishing him I offer him my hand.

 

[Tiberius]

My friend--come on now. All of the original formulators and utilizers of communism--Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Engels, Mao, etc.--were atheists, were they not? In all countries where communists were able to gain control, was not one of the first acts of the communist government to abolish and persecute--with intent to destroy--all religious practices, especially Christian?

Still, the government systems they created were as a result of their desire for power, not neccessarily their religious view. You also seem to be saying that atheism and communism are the same thing.

Has not the experiences of those under communist rule taught us what the consequence to a society is of turning from God? And yet the atheists in this country and elsewhere in the West have embarked on the same path--and the results will be exactly the same as the experiences of Russia, China, Vietman, etc. Man without God is just another animal--highly evolved, perhaps, but an animal for all that! [/B](Correct me if i am wrong and have misunderstood the atheist messiah Darwin.)

First of all, darwin has never been considered an "atheist messiah".

Secondly, what about all those countries that are not based on Christianity?

It affects me because the slaughter of innocent children by the millions is happening in MY country, in part financed by MY[/B] tax dollars, and i am, in a sense, just as guilty as the executioner (i can't say "doctor") who wields the scapel. Have you ever seen what an unborn child looks like after a "suction abortion"--i have, and it effected me, and continues to effect me, to the point of tears!
[/COLOR][/SIZE]i do not regret that i lack an atheistic sense of dispassion in this matter!

Still, you seem to be claiming that you have the right to make others operate according to your moral beliefs.

By the way, once you pay tax, it is no longer your money.

The millions upon millions who died in Russia, China, North Korea, etc. for a start. Check your history books for verification or try Google for facts and figures. A rough estimate appears to be 100 million plus or minus.

But can you show that atheism was directly responsible for those deaths?

There have indeed been atrocities and deaths "IN THE NAME OF THE CHRISTIAN GOD" throughout history--the "Crusades" and the "Inquisition" being major examples--but these atrocities and deaths were committed in direct disobedience to the wishes, commandments, and example of the Christian God.

And yet you verbally attack your enemies (the doctors who perform abortions) and call them executioners.

And let's not forget that as misguided as the perpetrators of the atrocities who committed those things in the name of God were, they still felt they were doing what God wanted. Their religious beliefs were a direct cause of their actions. So far, you've not been able to show me one instance where someone has said, "I do this in the name of atheism", yet there are many instances where people have done terrible things crying, "I do this in the name of God."

That was not the question--you implied that Christians are somehow "deprived" of a full life experience by the moral code by which they live, and i was attempting to show that far from losing any happiness in life, a Christian experiences life to the fullest, as our Lord promised, "EVERYONE WHO HAS LEFT HOUSES OR BROTHERS OR SISTERS OR FATHER OR MOTHER OR CHILDREN OR FIELDS FOR MY SAKE WILL RECEIVE A HUNDRED TIMES AS MUCH AND ALSO WILL INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE." [/B](Matthew 19:29) and "I HAVE COME THAT THEY MAY HAVE LIFE, AND HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY." (John 10:10) i have found that these promises, and is true of all of God's other promises, have been proven true.

Correction, I was trying to show that going to church isn't the only way to get that experience. I was also showing that church can make many people feel bad as well, I know of gay people who are told by their own religion that they are terrible people, and some even kill themselves.

i have seen what humans--myself included--without God are like and what they are capable of doing--so YES, i do indeed have a pretty low opinion of myself--and all human beings--without God.

So, knowing that I am an atheist, what does that tell you about me? That I'm selfish? I don't help others?

A question for you: if you were to see people on the street, see how they treated others and all that, would you be able to tell which people were atheists and which were christians just by watching how they act? If so, why is that? And if not, how do you explain the similarities between the Christian way of behaving and the Atheist way if people are so bad without God?

Again, you might refer to Communist Russia, China, North Korea, to see what a society without God is like, rather than smugly thinking, as you reap the moral benefits of living in the remanents of a formerly God-directed nation, that everything is cool, God is not necessary, and human beings are admirable creatures.

As I have said before, you are still to explain how the things that happened in those places were a direct result of their atheistic viewpoints. And even then, how can you not say that perhaps these things are not the result of a position of power combined with a distorted atheistic viewpoint, just as you attribute the Crusades with a position of power combined with a distorted Christian viewpoint?

Because we were created by God, ONLY GOD is capable of directing our lives so that we realize the potential with which He has endowed us. Christianity is God's blueprint for our lives--our "Owners Manual" if you will.

I'm sorry, but this is assuming the very thing you wish to prove. Circular logic.

To keep things in perspective, you might compare Jesus' two commandments--"LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, AND SPIRIT, AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" with Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" proclamation.

Darwin's survival of the fittest was not neccessarily referring to individuals. He was speaking of fittest groups as well, and the ability for people to help other people does make human society fitter.

My friend, i have mentioned several times that i have proved over and over that my Lord Jesus Christ is, indeed, who He claims to be and have proved, over and over again, that He delivers on His promises. i have investigated--over the course of my life--all the religions you mention and a bunch more, and found them all to be dead ends. i surrendered to Christianity on the basis of its TRUTH proven by its POWER, and nothing else.

I'm sorry, but you have not proved it. You may have experienced things which have convinced you, but there is no way I can be convinced by your experiences.

The existence of God cannot be proved except by personal experience. i can't "show you" anything--it is up to you to follow the finger and see the moon.

And therein lies the trouble. there's no testing mechanisms to verify that proof.

BINGO! Yes, FAITH IS THE BASIS OF EVERYTHING. The only people who get caught in the trap of using out-of-context Scriptural texts are those with an agenda. Christians have no such agenda--their only desire being to grow in knowledge of the TRUTH, not to refute it or escape from it.

Many Christians do pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe.

Nowhere have i said or implied that you are "a bad person" in the sense of being "evil" nor do i believe this.

You said: "there is no real possibility of an atheist living a "good" life"

We must have different views on what the opposite of Good is.

My point was that it is impossible to be "good" in God's eyes apart from following what He has commanded us to do in order to become truly "GOOD"--i.e., living lives guided and powered by His indwelling Holy Spirit, seeking to regain the image and likeness of His Son in which we were created.

Ah, so when you said that non-believers couldn't live a "good life", you were just saying that they weren't believers.

Yes, and in this case it is supremely and eternally true.

Still, if it is "just" advertising, then it may not be true, no matter how often the advertisement claims it is.

i understand and accept the truth of this statement. This is why i avoid debates in the MISSION: General Apologetics Forum where our discussion would normally be taking place. Perhaps you are lost?

I would suggest moving this discussion over there, however, I get the feeling from this that you would decline.

i do not have a low opinion of atheists--i HAVE A LOW OPINION OF ATHEISM. Atheists are the beloved creations of our Heavenly Father every bit as much as Christians are--they are just trapped in darkness and have not yet discovered the existence of the LIGHT. This doesn't make them "bad" or the other words you feel you are being insulted by--it just makes them deprived of the TRUTH.

I can assure you that there are people of other religions who would say the same thing about Christians. When you understand why those people are wrong, you'll understand why i think you are wrong.

 

[R3quiem]

Still, the government systems they created were as a result of their desire for power, not neccessarily their religious view. You also seem to be saying that atheism and communism are the same thing.

They are not the same thing, but whenever communism arises, it seems to always be paired with atheism. There can be atheism without communism obviously, but I can't think of a communist state that had a religious majority.

Secondly, what about all those countries that are not based on Christianity?

Well, so far, Christianity seems to be a decent religion to base a country around. The majority of the developed countries have a Christian majority over other religions. Most of Europe, North America, and Australia is made up of Christians and Non-religious people, with a much smaller percentage of other religions. There are exceptions of course- Dubai for example with it's impressive civil engineering projects. Buddhist areas also seem to do extremely well, not materially of course but morally- I'd say more moral than Christian countries.

You said: "there is no real possibility of an atheist living a "good" life"

We must have different views on what the opposite of Good is.

Ah, so when you said that non-believers couldn't live a "good life", you were just saying that they weren't believers.

I think he was referring to the definition of "good" that Jesus used, and according to him nobody is good except God. Atheists can certainly be "good" by human standards, just like Christians.