Schism

[Hermit76]

It seems that many, if not most, Catholics that I meet seem to feel that Rome and Orthodoxy are really close to each other. They seem to think unification is going to happen soon. At the same time most Orthodox seem to feel, as do I, that the division is very great and unification is not possible soon.

How do I respectfully let them in on our position? Is there really any point in going there?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It seems that many, if not most, Catholics that I meet seem to feel that Rome and Orthodoxy are really close to each other. They seem to think unification is going to happen soon. At the same time most Orthodox seem to feel, as do I, that the division is very great and unification is not possible soon.

How do I respectfully let them in on our position? Is there really any point in going there?

Tell them.
You're absolutely correct, a reconciliation is far into the future if it ever happens.
You can and should however love separated brethren even if they don't share certain beliefs with you.

 

[mark kennedy]

It seems that many, if not most, Catholics that I meet seem to feel that Rome and Orthodoxy are really close to each other. They seem to think unification is going to happen soon. At the same time most Orthodox seem to feel, as do I, that the division is very great and unification is not possible soon.

How do I respectfully let them in on our position? Is there really any point in going there?

With some differences the Orthodox and Catholics got along famously for about a thousand years. It seems to me the schism came down to ecclesiastical authority. I couldn't tell an Orthodox or Catholic cleric how they should proceed to unification but one thing I've always thought, there isn't a dimes worth of difference in Christians theologically. As a Protestant I've always enjoyed exploring Catholic theology but there is just something about Eastern Orthodoxy that just loses me.

We should always strive for unity without compromise. The most important thing you would have to consider is what is gained and what is lost. But the unity of the faith among the various sects, movements and especially those two great traditions is well worth the effort but who knows how.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[~Anastasia~]

I myself have tried telling them. You find all kinds.

Some like us are firm in their convictions, recognize our distinctions, and frankly don't want reunification - unless Orthodox were to become Catholic. And that's essentially our position. Reunification is possible ... if they return to Orthodoxy.

Some seem to NEED to think that we are the same. I have found in that case, every time, it wasn't helpful to try to tell them. Maybe I'm just not skilled at handling the discussion, in which case I have no suggestion.

The others don't seem to fall firmly into either of those two camps. Those are sometimes more open to honest and respectful dialogue, in which case I'd say just be open with them. Some seem less concerned about theology, but I don't run into very many of these in this kind of discussion, and I get the sense they simply dismiss whatever I say anyway.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

The stupidest are those who try to enforce the 'two lungs' terminology of JPii over a orthodox believers head.

The entire idea of JPii is false even in a Catholic context so how in earth are they believing to convince you guys to believe in it?

Puzzling...

 

[~Anastasia~]

I've actually been very interested in something I think I am slowly coming to recognize. And please don't misunderstand the first half of what I'm about to say.

When explored to their foundations, I am often surprised actually at how similar Catholics are to us on many doctrines. The difference tends to come up when those foundations are built upon. I think there truly is a great gulf between "Eastern" and "Western" thought and processes. Philosophy alone shouldn't be anything that should separate us. That would be a terrible sin, I fear.

However ... something seems to have happened when you add together the more legal mindset, and the tendency to rationalize the way through doctrine, such that the end result sometimes looks wildly different to us.

In some cases it IS wildly different - such as the idea of the Theotokos being Meduatrix of all (or even any) graces, which to us puts her in control of the very Energies of God, which is simply impossible.

But in other cases, I think maybe the core is acceptable to both of us. It seems that Catholics cannot help but expand on that though, which can mean change. I'm not saying that as condemnation, though. Protestantism inherited this tendency - it is "doing good theology" to them. It was an extremely difficult tendency to arrest in myself. And further, I could see no reason why I should, as a mere inquirer. So that makes me feel a little less inadequate that I fail to explain that mindset to either Catholics or Protestants.

It is part of the very breath of Orthodoxy, but I cannot explain it. And it took me many months to begin to grasp. I doubt I completely understand now - if I did, maybe I could explain it.

But I can see our common foundation. I can also sometimes see the way divergence happens. Forgive me ... it's something that endlessly interests me, which at least is turned to benefit since it helps me talk to people who are interested to learn about us, pretty much whatever their background may be.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The stupidest are those who try to enforce the 'two lungs' terminology of JPii over a orthodox believers head.

The entire idea of JPii is false even in a Catholic context so how in earth are they believing to convince you guys to believe in it?

Puzzling...

I don't see how Orthodoxy can accept the "two lungs" thing. Maybe it goes unchallenged sometimes for the sake of keeping peace?

 

[ArmyMatt]

just be honest and loving, speak the truth in love and don't worry so much. heresy is heresy and the loving thing is to let those in heresy know it.

be firm, but not mean and you'll be fine

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I don't see how Orthodoxy can accept the "two lungs" thing. Maybe it goes unchallenged sometimes for the sake of keeping peace?

Which is why you don't and rightly so.

Perhaps?
Not all wars are worth being fought, sometimes you nod politely and press the mental ignore button all the same.

 

[Hermit76]

The background to this question manifests in a friendship I have made. I teach public school in rural East Tennessee. The county boasts around 90% Baptists. There is this Catholic guy who is part of a Catholic order. He comes to the school once a week and greets the students. He identifies as a missionary. We have had several conversations and I really like the guy. He is a friend that predates my Orthodoxy. He just seems to be overly sure of connections that aren't there. That being said, he understands my Orthodoxy more than anyone else in the entire county. Perhaps I could just point out that the differences were so real to me that I passed on a local Catholic parish to travel weekly over an hour to my Orthodox parish. I really wanted to be Catholic, it would have been much easier, but alas...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Perhaps I could just point out that the differences were so real to me that I passed on a local Catholic parish to travel weekly over an hour to my Orthodox parish.

sounds like a good place to start to me

 

[Maryslittleflower]

I've actually been very interested in something I think I am slowly coming to recognize. And please don't misunderstand the first half of what I'm about to say.

When explored to their foundations, I am often surprised actually at how similar Catholics are to us on many doctrines. The difference tends to come up when those foundations are built upon. I think there truly is a great gulf between "Eastern" and "Western" thought and processes. Philosophy alone shouldn't be anything that should separate us. That would be a terrible sin, I fear.

However ... something seems to have happened when you add together the more legal mindset, and the tendency to rationalize the way through doctrine, such that the end result sometimes looks wildly different to us.

In some cases it IS wildly different - such as the idea of the Theotokos being Meduatrix of all (or even any) graces, which to us puts her in control of the very Energies of God, which is simply impossible.

But in other cases, I think maybe the core is acceptable to both of us. It seems that Catholics cannot help but expand on that though, which can mean change. I'm not saying that as condemnation, though. Protestantism inherited this tendency - it is "doing good theology" to them. It was an extremely difficult tendency to arrest in myself. And further, I could see no reason why I should, as a mere inquirer. So that makes me feel a little less inadequate that I fail to explain that mindset to either Catholics or Protestants.

It is part of the very breath of Orthodoxy, but I cannot explain it. And it took me many months to begin to grasp. I doubt I completely understand now - if I did, maybe I could explain it.

But I can see our common foundation. I can also sometimes see the way divergence happens. Forgive me ... it's something that endlessly interests me, which at least is turned to benefit since it helps me talk to people who are interested to learn about us, pretty much whatever their background may be.

A comment from a Catholic if that's ok...

we certainly don't believe that Our Blessed Mother controls God.. by calling her Mediatrix, we refer to her like being the "neck" in the Body of Christ, and He is the Head. All comes from Him, through her. Her will is totally in line with His, that's why her prayers are answered.

I do think that there is a lot in common between Orthodox and Catholics and some differences, that are important to discuss too. I believe the Schism would heal eventually but it would take much grace.

We both believe that doctrine doesn't actually change, but in Catholicism maybe we approach that differently with declaring dogmas, but that really only happens when there's a need and usually when there's an opposition to an idea that's already believed...

I hope my post sounds more like a response and not a debate!

 

[ArmyMatt]

All comes from Him, through her.

which is the problem, that for us is impossible and heretical

I do think that there is a lot in common between Orthodox and Catholics and some differences, that are important to discuss too. I believe the Schism would heal eventually but it would take much grace.

except we disagree on God, sacraments, Mary, the saints, heaven, hell, salvation, the Fall, grace, salvation...so basically, everything aside from some political beliefs.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The background to this question manifests in a friendship I have made. I teach public school in rural East Tennessee. The county boasts around 90% Baptists. There is this Catholic guy who is part of a Catholic order. He comes to the school once a week and greets the students. He identifies as a missionary. We have had several conversations and I really like the guy. He is a friend that predates my Orthodoxy. He just seems to be overly sure of connections that aren't there. That being said, he understands my Orthodoxy more than anyone else in the entire county. Perhaps I could just point out that the differences were so real to me that I passed on a local Catholic parish to travel weekly over an hour to my Orthodox parish. I really wanted to be Catholic, it would have been much easier, but alas...

I can certainly appreciate the position you are in and your friendship with this person.

I think your suggestion about how the differences affected your choice is a good idea. Prayers for you!

 

[~Anastasia~]

A comment from a Catholic if that's ok...

we certainly don't believe that Our Blessed Mother controls God.. by calling her Mediatrix, we refer to her like being the "neck" in the Body of Christ, and He is the Head. All comes from Him, through her. Her will is totally in line with His, that's why her prayers are answered.

I do think that there is a lot in common between Orthodox and Catholics and some differences, that are important to discuss too. I believe the Schism would heal eventually but it would take much grace.

We both believe that doctrine doesn't actually change, but in Catholicism maybe we approach that differently with declaring dogmas, but that really only happens when there's a need and usually when there's an opposition to an idea that's already believed...

I hope my post sounds more like a response and not a debate!

Hello Maryslittleflower, and welcome to TAW.

I wouldn't want to turn it into debate either, and I understand what you are saying ... but just for an example, we have a completely different understanding of what "grace" is so that we would really be talking past one another.

We regard grace as the very Energies of God - which is essentially that part of God Himself that is knowable. It is impossible for the Virgin Mary to mediate God Himself in any way. She can of course pray for us, and we are thankful for that, but to suggest her as Mediatrix implies that she actually sends/controls God ... which can't even be contemplated. This is why we reject merits, and so on. Those points of theology that separate us are the result of some things being a very different foundation.

The relationship of our two theologies, differences and similarities, is interesting, but it is also exceeding complex. Having begun from the same root, the ways in which Catholicism has "developed" have turned some things on their head, which makes me surprised as a result when I find things we actually aren't so far off in, but those are where Catholics tend to keep the foundation of greater importance in the overall doctrine.

But if one wants to understand, it would require examining each doctrine one at a time, comparing it, tracing the "development" by Catholics, and understanding how various other beliefs that we share or don't to varying degrees play into each one. It's exceedingly complex.

I mean none of this as insult.

 

[PittBullMom]

I personally was never taught the details of the schism and had little to zero knowledge of the eastern church. I honestly thought that it was for foreign people only. Not a clue. Only info I had was that a pope decided he was the successor to Peter, put a crown on his head and that was that in a nutshell. Everything revolved around Peter with keys to heaven and earth. I'm assuming most Catholics are waiting for the world to agree.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I personally was never taught the details of the schism and had little to zero knowledge of the eastern church. I honestly thought that it was for foreign people only. Not a clue. Only info I had was that a pope decided he was the successor to Peter, put a crown on his head and that was that in a nutshell. Everything revolved around Peter with keys to heaven and earth. I'm assuming most Catholics are waiting for the world to agree.

It is pretty complex, though there are summaries. An overview of Church history is a good thing for anyone to understand, but unless you have a particular reason or interest, there are also much more edifying and beneficial things to devote time and study towards.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

which is the problem, that for us is impossible and heretical.

Mary is mother of the church, you believe that too I guess? If you believe that I guess you can agree that as such Mary is indeed a synonym of the church, at least in some contexts. As such it's the same as saying that all grace comes through mother church.

In Catholic theology this makes perfect sense. The woman and the Dragon - Mary/ the church getting persecuted by the Dragon/ Satan and his demons.

There are more scriptural parallels I'm sure.
Please let me know if you don't consider the orthodox church your mother and use different terminology.

except we disagree on God, sacraments, Mary, the saints, heaven, hell, salvation, the Fall, grace, salvation...so basically, everything aside from some political beliefs.

Those are symptoms. We disagree mainly about the papacy and the hamartiology. All but the hamartiology is related to the papacy. The papacy issue is the umbrella.


That's not to say you don't have good theological reasons for denying the modern day papacy cause you do.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Mary is mother of the church, you believe that too I guess? If you believe that I guess you can agree that as such Mary is indeed a synonym of the church, at least in some contexts. As such it's the same as saying that all grace comes through mother church.

In Catholic theology this makes perfect sense. The woman and the Dragon - Mary/ the church getting persecuted by the Dragon/ Satan and his demons.

There are more scriptural parallels I'm sure.
Please let me know if you don't consider the orthodox church your mother and use different terminology.

no we do believe in that symbolism that Mary is our Mother. we do not, however, make the jump then and say she is the Mediatrix of all graces.

Those are symptoms. We disagree mainly about the papacy and the hamartiology. All but the hamartiology is related to the papacy. The papacy issue is the umbrella.


That's not to say you don't have good theological reasons for denying the modern day papacy cause you do.

no, those are not symptoms. we diasagree about Who God is. so even if, as an example, Rome renounced their papal claims, that would still be a massive stumbling block. the symptoms would be Rome's philosophic and speculative approach, not her many heresies.

the idea of the Pope began the split, but Rome over the years has continued to drift away from her Apostlic roots

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

no we do believe in that symbolism that Mary is our Mother. we do not, however, make the jump then and say she is the Mediatrix of all graces.

It's the church that is, but the church is intimately related to Mary.

no, those are not symptoms. we diasagree about Who God is. so even if, as an example, Rome renounced their papal claims, that would still be a massive stumbling block. the symptoms would be Rome's philosophic and speculative approach, not her many heresies.

the idea of the Pope began the split, but Rome over the years has continued to drift away from her Apostlic roots

Duh, that's my point.
The papacy has given birth to the list you're mentioning. They have all been developed through the papal office that your ecclesiology refuse to grant authority.

Papacy is the umbrella.