Scenario, unsaved > saved

[Papepipu]

Has anyone ever changed faiths before?
By this I mean, they can be believing in Christ, but believe in him in a different way.

So if you have, do you believe you were unsaved before you reached the current faith you were in, and if not, then does that mean you think it's okay to believe the other way too? Or are you partial and not sure how to believe?

I have noticed a trend in people I talk to who say "i don't notice a difference between us". Especially with the people I talk to. They believe they have always known God and that He has led him. As for me, I have believed in God for most of my life, yet I didn't know Him. I was completely unsaved and all my prayers never reached him because I did not have the remission of sin regardless of me believing in Christ in some way.

If you changed denominations, weren't you unsaved before and are saved now? Not saying that whatever you are believing in is true, just trying to make a point.

 

[file13]

Has anyone ever changed faiths before?
By this I mean, they can be believing in Christ, but believe in him in a different way.

So if you have, do you believe you were unsaved before you reached the current faith you were in, and if not, then does that mean you think it's okay to believe the other way too? Or are you partial and not sure how to believe?

I was a Buddhist (Nyingma Vajrayana and then Theravada) prior to the Spirit awakening me and bringing me to Christ. Was I "un-saved" prior to this? From a temporal human point of view, perhaps we could say that. But according to Scripture, our salvation was done long ago, because He chose us long ago.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
(Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV)
​

If you changed denominations, weren't you unsaved before and are saved now? Not saying that whatever you are believing in is true, just trying to make a point.

As for the idea that you go in and out of justification (saved one moment, damned the next), I do not believe in "decision theology" or "Daisy theology" (He loves me. He loves me not. He loves me. He loves me not...) nor the notion that Christ covers you with His blood, but that He'll wipe it off based on your later personal performance. I believe that Christ saves sinners, and thus, those who have been saved by grace through faith, will be saved because they have been justified by grace imparted through the work of Jesus Christ. So the idea that changing denominations affects one's salvation is also something I reject because I do not believe that Christ will let His true sheep completely run away. We're not saved by our sect or even by having perfect theology. We're saved by Christ's grace which He chose to give us before we were even born as Scripture says, but which manifests when the Spirit opens our hearts.

So rather than saying "I wasn't saved," I would say "I had not been regenerated by the Spirit" or "I was unregenerate."

Hope this helps and God bless!

 

[Papepipu]

Can't say I agree

If you don't have the Spirit you aren't saved, anyone not regenerated has not been saved.

You were bhuddist before, but are no longer. You were unsaved back then.

Like for instance I used to be somewhat baptist, but I changed. I believe I was unsaved back then, too

 

[file13]

You were bhuddist before, but are no longer. You were unsaved back then.

I understand you objection. But why then does Scripture speak of us being chosen before the foundation of the world as I just cited? Why does God chose Jacob over Esau? When does he chose Jacob over Esau? On what basis does He chose Jacob over Esau?

For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
(Romans 9:9-13 ESV)
​

But of course even if we ignore the foundation of the world issue or how and why God chooses folks, I could also ask you, when did Christ die for you? Did it happen before you were born? So really, didn't He "save you" at Calvary about 2000 years ago?

Do you see what I'm getting at sister? Was it really "finished" as Christ said.

Like for instance I used to be somewhat baptist, but I changed. I believe I was unsaved back then, too

What makes you think you were "unsaved" as a Baptist?

 

[Papepipu]

1 John 2:2
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

I believe he atoned for all the worlds sin 2000 years ago. The debt of sin has been finalized. Now on the other hand I do not believe in 'pre-destination' in that he selects a few people for some reason. We all have the same flesh, and we all have committed every sin within our hearts. God also is not a respecter of persons.

I believe I was unsaved as a Baptist because I believed only in his blood for salvation and kept a multitude of false doctrines. I had sin still back then, where as now I have no sin.

But still, I was unsaved back then because although I believed in Christ blindly, I was not saved. Blind faith is no faith at all.

 

[file13]

1 John 2:2
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

I believe he atoned for all the worlds sin 2000 years ago. The debt of sin has been finalized.

When you say He atoned for everyone 2000 years ago, do you really mean that He made it possible for people to be saved provided they meet certain conditions?

Now on the other hand I do not believe in 'pre-destination' in that he selects a few people for some reason. We all have the same flesh, and we all have committed every sin within our hearts. God also is not a respecter of persons.

I understand and respect your opinion. But I must ask you in light of the Scripture, what do you mean you don't believe in predestination? It's a Biblical concept is it not? If it's a Biblical concept, how can you not believe it?

I believe I was unsaved as a Baptist because I believed only in his blood for salvation and kept a multitude of false doctrines. I had sin still back then, where as now I have no sin.

So you're saying that 2000 years ago Christ made salvation possible, but in fact, didn't really save anyone? I.e. are you saying that Jesus is a potential savior of the world and not a real one?

But still, I was unsaved back then because although I believed in Christ blindly, I was not saved. Blind faith is no faith at all.

Where does grace fit into this view?

 

[Papepipu]

When you say He atoned for everyone 2000 years ago, do you really mean that He made it possible for people to be saved provided they meet certain conditions?
I mean that I believe there is no sin in the world that he has not atoned already through his body and blood. The condition for God to not impute sin onto somebody is whether or not they believe in the Son of God coupled with repentance. So, no sin in the world, I believe in that.


I understand and respect your opinion. But I must ask you in light of the Scripture, what do you mean you don't believe in predestination? It's a Biblical concept is it not? If it's a Biblical concept, how can you not believe it?
I believe God pre-destined everybody to be saved in Christ Jesus, which is why I quoted 1 John 2:2. All peoples can be saved if they believe. I do not believe however that he selected a few people to be saved, as I said he's not a respecter of persons.


So you're saying that 2000 years ago Christ made salvation possible, but in fact, didn't really save anyone? I.e. are you saying that Jesus is a potential savior of the world and not a real one?
If you read my first response in the post then you know I believe the Lord has taken away the sin of the world in a very present tense, 2000 years ago. So from that I have no sin, because he took it all, and then carried it to the cross and died with it all. As there is no remission of sin without blood. So because there is no remission without blood, then how can someone pray for forgiveness of sins for example, wouldn't that imply unbelief? Not understanding the context of scripture and hanging onto known doctrines to interpret scripture will give that view one must ask for forgiveness of sins.


Where does grace fit into this view?
Don't know what you mean, if someone is deceived they will still die

 

[file13]

I mean that I believe there is no sin in the world that he has not atoned already through his body and blood. The condition for God to not impute sin onto somebody is whether or not they believe in the Son of God coupled with repentance. So, no sin in the world, I believe in that.

So Jesus Christ really didn't save anyone on the cross then, rather He just made salvation possible. He is not really the savior of the world, He's just the potential savior, provided you meet His conditions. Is this what you really mean to say?

I believe God pre-destined everybody to be saved in Christ Jesus, which is why I quoted 1 John 2:2. All peoples can be saved if they believe. I do not believe however that he selected a few people to be saved, as I said he's not a respecter of persons.

Huh? How can He predestine anyone to be saved if He dosen't actually save anyone? According to what you've said more then once, Christ dosen't actually save anyone. He simply sets up some conditions that you must meet in order to be saved. So really, he's not saving anyone nor can He save anyone without their help. I.e. Christ saves us with our help, or to put it inversely, we save ourselves with Christ's help. Is this good news?

If you read my first response in the post then you know I believe the Lord has taken away the sin of the world in a very present tense, 2000 years ago. So from that I have no sin, because he took it all, and then carried it to the cross and died with it all. As there is no remission of sin without blood. So because there is no remission without blood, then how can someone pray for forgiveness of sins for example, wouldn't that imply unbelief? Not understanding the context of scripture and hanging onto known doctrines to interpret scripture will give that view one must ask for forgiveness of sins.

Well sister, it's not that I haven't read what you wrote earlier, it's that you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say on one hand He saved people, but then take it back and say that we're not really saved until we do something. But of course, if we're not saved until we do some kind of work, then Christ dosen't save sinners. They save themselves with His help. Again, is this the Gospel? :o

Don't know what you mean, if someone is deceived they will still die

What do you make of this?

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)
​

What part of this suggests that salvation is up to you doing something in order to be saved? Do you think that this could be the "good news" of a savior who really saves helpless sinners?

 

[Papepipu]

I didn't contradict did I? He says to repent and to believe in the gospel for the remission of sins. Those are the concrete requirements. However you have to believe in the truth, too. He atoned for the worlds sin 2000 years ago through His body and His blood. But yes, it is a requirement to repent and to believe in the truth. I didn't contradict at all.

I am not a universalist, as that is not biblical. I do not believe everyone who believes in God in some manner will be saved either. Even though he atoned for all sin, not everyone who says to him "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. It also says John 4:24
"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” So it is a requirement for someone who worships God to have the Spirit and also believe in the truth.

How is this not grace, he has atoned for everyone. It's ones own fault if they are deceived.

 

[file13]

I didn't contradict did I? He says to repent and to believe in the gospel for the remission of sins. Those are the concrete requirements. However you have to believe in the truth, too. He atoned for the worlds sin 2000 years ago through His body and His blood. But yes, it is a requirement to repent and to believe in the truth. I didn't contradict at all.

You said earlier that "I believe he atoned for all the worlds sin 2000 years ago. The debt of sin has been finalized." Again you said "The condition for God to not impute sin onto somebody is whether or not they believe in the Son of God coupled with repentance." But of course, if there's a condition for a debt to be finalized that has not been met temporally, then Christ really didn't wipe away anyone's sins on the cross and really didn't save anyone. So you see what you're inadvertently saying? You're making salvation dependent upon what we believe and do, and thus, Christ saved no one on the cross. He also cannot be a real savior because He dosen't actually save anyone. He is just a potential savior. Do you see why I think you might be involved in some "double think" here?

I am not a universalist, as that is not biblical. I do not believe everyone who believes in God in some manner will be saved either. Even though he atoned for all sin, not everyone who says to him "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. It also says John 4:24
"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” So it is a requirement for someone who worships God to have the Spirit and also believe in the truth.

Me neither sister and praise God for that!

As for the "requirements," the question is, who's works are they? What do you think what I just quoted in Ephesians has to say?

How is this not grace, he has atoned for everyone. It's ones own fault if they are deceived.

:o What!? It's our own fault if we're deceived!? That's not a conscious decision, and if we go by the kind of "decision theology" you seem to be expressing, you're not even making a willful conscious decision based on truth if you're deceived. Are you really saying that folks will be in hell because someone tricked them and God just stood back helplessly waiting for one of His children to hopefully get it in their head that they should correct them while He stands there from the sidelines crying "COME TO ME!"? What kind of weak helpless God is this who damns people because someone tricked them!? What if they never got to hear the real Gospel? Too bad!?

Again sister, I ask you about grace, because I'm not sure what grace has to do with the "good news" you seem to be expressing. It seems to be based on you and what you do. What's good news about a "savior" who dosen't save anyone, but rather setups up conditions for you to meet so that you just might be saved if you work hard enough? Every religion in the world except for Christianity promises that if you just meet these conditions you'll be saved/enlightened/reborn/become rich. What makes a Christian's grace different from say Islam, which says, if you do these things, you'll be saved? What makes Christ's work different, if in the end, it's all up to you?

 

[Nom De Guerre]

Is it not written, except ye be born again you may not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3)? "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:20), and "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." (John 6:53) are shinning examples of how many exceptions that there are in actually receiving the truth of Heaven's Kingdom; even a very famous scripture is often quoted in part and rarely ever fully, which demonstrates just how exceptional having to be is:

John 3:14-21

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Did Yahweh not say these things?

 

[Papepipu]

You're really misunderstanding me

Just because he atoned for everyone, if they dont repent and believe then they cant be saved. It doesnt change the fact that he atoned for everyone

 

[Nanopants]

Has anyone ever changed faiths before?
By this I mean, they can be believing in Christ, but believe in him in a different way.

So if you have, do you believe you were unsaved before you reached the current faith you were in, and if not, then does that mean you think it's okay to believe the other way too? Or are you partial and not sure how to believe?

I have noticed a trend in people I talk to who say "i don't notice a difference between us". Especially with the people I talk to. They believe they have always known God and that He has led him. As for me, I have believed in God for most of my life, yet I didn't know Him. I was completely unsaved and all my prayers never reached him because I did not have the remission of sin regardless of me believing in Christ in some way.

If you changed denominations, weren't you unsaved before and are saved now? Not saying that whatever you are believing in is true, just trying to make a point.

Keep in mind that whosoever believes on Him shall be saved.

Our viewpoints may change over time, but that does not affect the certainty of the promise. The requirement is and always has been faith, and not attainment to some level of understanding.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Has anyone ever changed faiths before?
By this I mean, they can be believing in Christ, but believe in him in a different way.

So if you have, do you believe you were unsaved before you reached the current faith you were in, and if not, then does that mean you think it's okay to believe the other way too? Or are you partial and not sure how to believe?

I have noticed a trend in people I talk to who say "i don't notice a difference between us". Especially with the people I talk to. They believe they have always known God and that He has led him. As for me, I have believed in God for most of my life, yet I didn't know Him. I was completely unsaved and all my prayers never reached him because I did not have the remission of sin regardless of me believing in Christ in some way.

If you changed denominations, weren't you unsaved before and are saved now? Not saying that whatever you are believing in is true, just trying to make a point.

Good question, and not discussed often enough.

I used to be an evangelical, raised in a megachurch. Once I began to study the history and theology of Christianity I became a high church Lutheran.

There's no plowing over the differences. Evangelicalism in America and evangelical catholic Lutheranism are about as far apart in the Protestant spectrum as you can get, and quite frankly, as many of you know, I don't consider authentic Lutheranism to be Protestant anyway. My self-identification is as Western Catholic in Exile, and I think that's how Luther saw himself his whole life.

In any case, with that in mind, I still do believe that I was saved before I became Lutheran. I did not have all the benefits of being saved, like access to formal absolution and weekly communion and the historic liturgy, but as a Lutheran I believe that our salvation ultimately depends upon God's promise worked out through work and sacrament, and therefore my baptism as an evangelical saved me even though I didn't believe at the time that baptism saves.

 

[Papepipu]

Keep in mind that whosoever believes on Him shall be saved.

Our viewpoints may change over time, but that does not affect the certainty of the promise. The requirement is and always has been faith, and not attainment to some level of understanding.

His worshipers have to worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH

 

[Nanopants]

His worshipers have to worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH

That is true, but even if we don't obey, the promise is still a promise. As David said:

If I ascend into heaven, You [are] there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You [are there]. -Ps 139:8

 

[Papepipu]

That is true, but even if we don't obey, the promise is still a promise. As David said:

If I ascend into heaven, You [are] there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You [are there]. -Ps 139:8

a promise to His believers, not just anyone whos deceived

 

[Nanopants]

a promise to His believers, not just anyone whos deceived

Right. Faith is the requirement, but sometimes believers can be deceived.

 

[Frogster]

daaays in or daay aint.





8;9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

I, for one, certainly believe the Lord has granted me a lot of light in my life; and even when I was backslidden He always found a way to pull me closer and sort everything out, however with that being said I also believe that as much as we're grafted in to the tree of life, we can be cut off from it as well (as per Romans 11 or Revelations when it speaks about how even the lukewarm will be cut-off).

The Lord, God, is not a respector of persons; but everlastingly faithful and forever gracious. We, in turn, must be obedient to His salvation through faith and love; loving Him, and loving each other.

There are so many scriptures which explain the necessity of remaining constant with our Love of Him and how those whom do not can, and will, be cast out.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.