Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Saint Steven]

This passage is talking about the rejection of Christ by the elect, or the nation of Israel. This verse in particular is a reference to their disobedience and this period of time when God has grafted in the gentiles to be partakers of His great mercy and grace through the finished work of Christ. In a coming period God will restore the Israelite's according to this passage and others. This is not a reference of universal forgiveness for the entirety of mankind. Gentiles are warned in this passage to not become high minded of the fact God as grafted us in to His kingdom as with the elect, or the Jewish people if we turn from His course we too can become cut off.

This one is more direct. And states it twice so we can't miss it.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ray Prinzing has written, "We have known what it is to take the downward journey, picking up the debris of the flesh and self, until we come to the bottom, a filthy pool. But there is another river, much more invisible, spiritualized, we might say, and that is the one which forms by the DRAWING OF THE SON, lifting us up out of the 'dead sea' and raising us again into the heavenlies, to bring us back to the height of the mount of God. Of this glorious river we read, 'There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God' (Ps. 46:4). Some are still on the low road, taking the downward path in self, sin, wayward rebellion. And some, praise God, are already being irresistibly drawn upward, to take that HIGH WAY back to Father's house.

"What is true in the cycles of our own life, is also true concerning God's dealings with His whole creation. That which was turned away from Him, to run an erratic and wild course of self-will, shall eventually come meekly and submissively back to its Source, our Creator. Thus we need this perspective, to view from the vantage point of God's great purpose to BECOME ALL IN ALL, for without this purpose there would be no rhyme nor reason to any unfolding event. We often say that the 'way UP is DOWN,' bit to always have to go down, without a way up, would bring forth a hopeless frustration that would surely end in defeat. But, in God's law of circularity, there is a place in our going down process, God knows when and where, we come to a curve and begin that upward way"-- end quote.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

The rest of your post was already addressed in this thread.
You left out part of BDAG's entry on aionion, including this portion.
"1. pert. to a long period of time,
ClementofA said:
long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10)."

False. I never leave out anything when I quote BDAG in full.

Here's the Lidell Scott lexicon entry:
"Liddell, Scott Jones Lexicon of Classical GreekG166
• αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Heb_9:12 : —
1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28; αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Rom_16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον.. ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Gen_9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Mat_25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2Ti_1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2Co_4:18.
2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.
3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.
4. Adv. -ίως eternally νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.
5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88."

As I said which you seem to have ignored, this is classical Greek there were many changes including the meaning of words between Classical and Koine Greek.. Evidently you ignored that, it doesn't fit your agenda. But even this classical Greek lexicon shows that "eternally" and "perpetually" were definitions of "aionios."

Here's Moulton & Milligan's summary from the same page:
"In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, as in Catullus’ poignant lines—
...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."

Classical Greek.

No scholar in the past 10,000 years agrees with your aion/ios/olam always mean "eternal" except when used in hyperbole theory.

The EOB version appears to agree with me.
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

= = = = = = = = = =

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aioniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In the EOB Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, uses αιωνιου/aioniou],” in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf​

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
There is absolutely nothing you can say, no credible evidence you can provide which contradicts this. You can copy/paste the opinions of a dozen UR "scholars" and the only thing they can do is quote examples where "aionios" refers to something which is not eternal.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Irrelevant. Kosmos which means world is used 14 times, in the NT, to refer to something which is not the entire planet. This shows that just because a word is used for something else it does not change the inherent meaning of the word.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

No matter how many times you say this it is meaningless without credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Evidence which you do not and never will have.

 

[ClementofA]

False. I never leave out anything when I quote BDAG in full.

You're just repeating what i already answered:

False. I never leave out anything when I quote BDAG in full.

No, true because you didn't quote BDAG in full.

As I said which you seem to have ignored, this is classical Greek there were many changes including the meaning of words between Classical and Koine Greek..

The NT & OT references in Lidell were not classical Greek.

Classical Greek.

No, references in Milligan to Scripture & 200 AD etc are not classical Greek:

Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

The EOB version appears to agree with me.

Disagrees with you re Rev.20:10 & all the many similar references.

...

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
​

It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

KOLASIS:
Are You of Israel?




​

 

[Der Alte]

...

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.
(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end....

I quoted from the EOB version which is endorsed by the Eastern Greek Orthodox church translated by native Greek speaking scholars and you think your unsupported opinion is supposed to refute them?
Just quoting a different translation does NOT prove anything.
To refute the EOB requires a lettered scholar with verifiable teaching, researching, writing etc. credentials who show specifically how any word(s) in the OB is/are not translated correctly.
Anybody can say "Nuh uh it is mistranslated." Let me know if you ever reach that point.

 

[ClementofA]

I quoted from the EOB version which is endorsed by the Eastern Greek Orthodox church translated by native Greek speaking scholars and you think your unsupported opinion is supposed to refute them?
Just quoting a different translation does NOT prove anything.
To refute the EOB requires a lettered scholar with verifiable teaching, researching, writing etc. credentials who show specifically how any word(s) in the OB is/are not translated correctly.
Anybody can say "Nuh uh it is mistranslated." Let me know if you ever reach that point.

Simply citing an authority like the EOB against my reasoned argument is like appealing to the Pope. IOW EOB is your pope in this argument. I've offered intelligent reasons & logic for the views i posted. You countered with (1) pope & (2) nothing but ignoring all of my reasoned, intelligent points. So you are guilty of this fallacy:

"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."

Two can play at that game, if you wish to reduce things to that low level:

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages.
It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

 

[Saint Steven]

We read in Isa. 40:22, "God sits upon the circle of the earth." While the word for "circle" in the Hebrew denotes the sphericity of the earth, it may also indicate the cycles of nature. These cycles are the continual goings and comings of the seasons, days, months, years, etc., which were ordained of God in the beginning. Everything in nature moves in cycles: winter and summer, seedtime and harvest; generation after generation, all show the might and wisdom of God. Even electricity must have a circuit. A battery has a positive and a negative to complete the circuit. SO IT IS WITH GOD’S WORK. In the spiritual realm God is the positive, and Satan is the negative. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that man, the highest of God's creation, came out of God, was then lowered into the world of vanity, darkness, and death, but will return to God, thus completing the cycle, not in part, but in full. Even Jesus came out of God, and descended into the depths of man's fall, then arose and returned to God.

The King James version of Rom. 11:36 begins, "For of Him..." This word "of" comes from the Greek word "ek" literally meaning OUT OF. This clearly places God as the one Source of all things, and hence the Amplified's beautiful rendering, "For all things originate with Him and come from Him." Col. 1: 16 says, "For it was IN HIM that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities" (Amplified).

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Shrewd Manager]

We read in Isa. 40:22, "God sits upon the circle of the earth." While the word for "circle" in the Hebrew denotes the sphericity of the earth,

Sidebar! Unfortunately Steve, Brother Eby has it seems unwittingly blundered into an arena to which intensive scrutiny has been given over the last few years. You guessed it, it's the Biblical flat earth.

With great respect to all present, Isa 40:22 does not support the sphericity of the earth, at best it is ambiguous, as a 2D circle is also a circle, and probably moreso, than a 3D sphere or 'oblate pearoid' (as the wolves would have it now). Try stretching out a tent over a ball. Further, the word used for circle 'chug' is different from the word Isaiah uses for 'ball' just a few chapters earlier, which would be more suitable if he wanted to invoke a sphere.

So you can take that particular claim of support for the fake spinning waterball earth (the only scripture that even comes close!), roll it up into ball and sling it into a distant country. (see Isaiah 22:18).

Now back to rubbishing fake theology in the form you-know-what.

 

[Saint Steven]

The law of circularity requires that EVEN AS ALL THINGS BEGAN IN CHRIST, ALL SHALL END IN CHRIST. "I am ALPHA and OMEGA, the beginning and the end, the first and the last," says the Lord (Rev. 22:13). Only the glorious mind of Christ can reveal to our hearts what that means! Through a glass darkly I can see that He was the FIRST - "before all things." Can I also believe that HE IS THE LAST? If He is the BEGINNING, can my feeble mind dare to comprehend what it signifies when He says that He is also the END? All that existed IN CHRIST before the ages began, shall RETURN INTO HIM AGAIN that He may be the FIRST and the LAST, the BEGINNING and the END. All that came out of Him, lowered into the realm of the negative, completes its circuit and returns once more to its former estate - IN GOD! The first Adam had power to take ALL with him into death, without their knowledge, or consent: therefore, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, gathers up the same number in His redemptive work and man who came out of God shall return, that the circle may be unbroken.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The law of circularity requires that EVEN AS ALL THINGS BEGAN IN CHRIST, ALL SHALL END IN CHRIST. "I am ALPHA and OMEGA, the beginning and the end, the first and the last," says the Lord (Rev. 22:13). Only the glorious mind of Christ can reveal to our hearts what that means! Through a glass darkly I can see that He was the FIRST - "before all things." Can I also believe that HE IS THE LAST? If He is the BEGINNING, can my feeble mind dare to comprehend what it signifies when He says that He is also the END? All that existed IN CHRIST before the ages began, shall RETURN INTO HIM AGAIN that He may be the FIRST and the LAST, the BEGINNING and the END. All that came out of Him, lowered into the realm of the negative, completes its circuit and returns once more to its former estate - IN GOD! The first Adam had power to take ALL with him into death, without their knowledge, or consent: therefore, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, gathers up the same number in His redemptive work and man who came out of God shall return, that the circle may be unbroken.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Aka Exitus et Reditus or as all things proceed from God, so to Him all shall return.

I want that tattoo...on a t-shirt.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The very laws of physics and mathematics establish with indisputable certainty the absolute inevitability of the creation's return back to God. Psalm nineteen was long a source of amusement to Bible critics. In speaking of the sun, the Psalmist says: "His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat there of' (Ps. 19:6). It was claimed that the writer of this verse, obviously believed in the ancient notion of the sun's revolving about the earth. This charge is most unjust, since we still use words and phrases of the same sort, simply because from our natural viewpoint the sun does rise in the morning, move across the sky, and set in the evening. The whole science of nautical and engineering astronomy is based on the assumption, made purely for convenience, that the earth is the center of a great celestial sphere, moving along the surface of which in ordered paths are the sun, moon, planets and stars. And as far as any practical usage is concerned, this is so. On this assumption, courses can be plotted, positions determined, and scores of other applications made.

Very few are prepared to accept Biblical cosmology (flat non-rotating and enclosed earth) at face value. Now ppl are starting to wake up to the fact that the devil can actually deceive them in some pretty significant ways, I'd hope they'll turn again and drop the pretense of knowledge cast by the sorceries of modern (actually Babylonian) cosmology.

Believe ye when the HS speaks of heavenly things, so why not believe his reports of earthly things? It's better to trust in God than put your faith in man.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There are clear and understandable passages of scripture which declare that although all are offered salvation and it is available not all will partake to their detriment and eventual punishment.

But is that the end of the story? I read 'And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all.' (Rev 22:21). And flipping back a few verses, we see the nations and kings of the earth bringing their honour and glory to the throne (Rev 21:24-26) and the leaves of the tree of life for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2b). The renewal of all things (Rev 21:6). The removal of the curse (Rev 22:3).

Sounds like the revelation of good news to me, the consummation of prophecy and glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. I certainly hope the angels weren't gilding the lily with that one. What do you think?

 

[Der Alte]

But is that the end of the story? I read 'And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all.' (Rev 22:21). And flipping back a few verses, we see the nations and kings of the earth bringing their honour and glory to the throne (Rev 21:24-26) and the leaves of the tree of life for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2b). The renewal of all things (Rev 21:6). The removal of the curse (Rev 22:3).
Sounds like the revelation of good news to me, the consummation of prophecy and glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. I certainly hope the angels weren't gilding the lily with that one. What do you think?

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as we see here.
This is the old heterodox verse switcheroo. We start with Rev 22:21, then jump back to Rev 21:24-26, then back Rev 22:2b, then back to Rev 21:6 and finally back to Rev 22:3.
First let's look at Revelation 21:4-8

Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of sinful people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”
…..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall inherit NOT all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.
Now let us look at Rev 22.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

Two more verses- The End.

 

[Der Alte]

Sidebar! Unfortunately Steve, Brother Eby has it seems unwittingly blundered into an arena to which intensive scrutiny has been given over the last few years. You guessed it, it's the Biblical flat earth.
With great respect to all present, Isa 40:22 does not support the sphericity of the earth, at best it is ambiguous, as a 2D circle is also a circle, and probably moreso, than a 3D sphere or 'oblate pearoid' (as the wolves would have it now). Try stretching out a tent over a ball. Further, the word used for circle 'chug' is different from the word Isaiah uses for 'ball' just a few chapters earlier, which would be more suitable if he wanted to invoke a sphere.
So you can take that particular claim of support for the fake spinning waterball earth (the only scripture that even comes close!), roll it up into ball and sling it into a distant country. (see Isaiah 22:18).
Now back to rubbishing fake theology in the form you-know-what.

I guess all the astronauts who have seen, reported and filmed a spherical earth were all deluded.

 

[ClementofA]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as we see here.

Which recalls what you did here, twice:

Rubbish! You didn't say those exact words but you said the same thing

Only in your imagination of the fake quote of me you posted. Which BTW you failed to link to any post of mine with the context of my actual quote, so who knows what the context said since you purposely left it out. As you do again here:

"Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. So because Jesus didn't say all this when He said "I never knew you" that to you means someday those He said "I never knew you" will be saved regardless?

Where does this say "Jesus will save all mankind even the unrighteous after death?

Are those who openly reject(ed) Jesus still considered His people?
Luke 19:26-27
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Where did that say anyone will NEVER be saved, but sadisticlly tortured throughout endless eons?

It's incredibly - lame - for a Jesus you think will monstrously fry people for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

If that were His belief, why is it entirely absent from Scripture? Why is Scripture instead - full - of lame warnings like the above, ALL of which are perfectly harmonious with the many passages that support universalism. By quoting Lk.19:26-27 you only shoot your own dogma in the foot...yet again.


Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Then of course we have.

Matthew 7:21-22
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

You would have us believe that verse 21 does not say
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;"
But instead means,
"everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven righteous and unrighteous alike."

Did you miss verse 22 of the context which is speaking of what will happen on a certain "day", not eternal destinies? Nothing there states they cannot be saved at some point in the future beyond that "day".

By the same kind of logic you would have us believe that no one will be saved because all have been unrighteous & 1 Cor.6:9 says:

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

Remember this:

.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.


Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

Which recalls what you did here, twice:...

It is nonsense. It was nonsense. It will always be nonsense. As I said before all the UR-ites eat this stuff up but it does not answer anything. It is unsupported opinion, illogical arguments. It does not provide any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence.
Since you think your argument is valid i.e. if Jesus meant "eternal" He would have said "endless" etc. Here is my version. If Jesus had intended to say all mankind would be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death He would have clearly, unequivocally said so at least once. But alas He did not.

 

[ClementofA]

Since you think your argument is valid i.e. if Jesus meant "eternal" He would have said "endless" etc. Here is my version. If Jesus had intended to say all mankind would be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death He would have clearly, unequivocally said so at least once. But alas He did not.

If Scripture or Jesus had never clearly stated His view of universalism as truth, what is the loss? OTOH if endless tortures are true & Scripture/Jesus doesn't state it clearly, then the people are not warned & will not many more will go to endless tortures? Yes or no? Otherwise what point would there be in the warnings about endless tortures? Would they not, then, be useless warnings & the debates on the subject pointless?

 

[Saint Steven]

To quote Ray Prinzing once more: "When we understand the glorious truth that our God is both the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, then we realize that no matter how vast the cycle and circuit, the end is secure, for all things return unto Him again. To read only a portion of God's Word, the facts are too few to rightly calculate the CURVE of God's plan. And while HE does, gloriously, illumine a specific verse or sentence to speak to our hearts for that day, we also need the full sweep of the Book to gain an overall view of His purpose, and then understand the tremendous victory which is ours in Christ"-- end quote.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

To quote Ray Prinzing once more: "When we understand the glorious truth that our God is both the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, then we realize that no matter how vast the cycle and circuit, the end is secure, for all things return unto Him again. To read only a portion of God's Word, the facts are too few to rightly calculate the CURVE of God's plan. And while HE does, gloriously, illumine a specific verse or sentence to speak to our hearts for that day, we also need the full sweep of the Book to gain an overall view of His purpose, and then understand the tremendous victory which is ours in Christ"-- end quote.
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby

I guess the books the gospel of Saint Eby and 1st and 2nd Prinzing are only in the literal version UR Bible, of course.

 

[Saint Steven]

Long millenniums ago Adam was banished from the Paradise of God and its life-giving tree. But God has provided a way by which His banished may return! Some glad morning, when the unfolding plan of God is complete, all who once stood "in Adam" in the Garden will again be gathered together and their eyes will behold with endless joy that heaven blest Eden in which walked Adam, the son of God. But even now there is a remnant, the election of grace, the firstfruits of His redemption WHO IN SPIRIT HAVE ENTERED THOSE ONCE-CLOSED PORTALS AND HAVE PARTAKEN OF THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF LIFE! In the power of the Christ, the last Adam, though the firstfruits of Christ's redemption still move about in a world which is under the curse, where the traces of sin are visible on all hands, these have found their way, by faith, to the bosom of the Father, and are NOW AT HOME AGAIN IN GOD! The mighty transformation that has come and is coming to our lives shall be experienced ultimately by ALL MEN, God's own law of circularity secures it, and none can resist it, praise His glorious name!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1