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Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

ClementofA

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Translation does not mean adding words that are not in the original Greek.

Again your translation is not pertinent to the quote.

The word "aionios" occurs in the N.T. sixty nine times of that it is translated as world only 3 times.
Do those three times determine the meaning or the 66?

The word aionion (eonian) does not mean "world". The word for "world" in the ancient Koine Greek is the word KOSMOS.

According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary eonian is a variant spelling of aeonian. Another variant is aeonic. They all mean, according to Webster's definition, "lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time". Webster's adds "Origin and Etymology of aeonian...from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic". Definition of EONIAN

Another dictionary says re eonian "Of, relating to, or constituting an eon" & "eonian - of or relating to a geological eon (longer than an era) aeonian. 2. eonian - continuing forever or indefinitely..." eonian

"lasting for an indefinitely long period of time"

Definition of eonian
eonian | Definition of eonian by Webster's Online Dictionary

"Of, relating to, or constituting an eon"

http://www.memidex.com/eonian+pertaining-adjective

"Of or pertaining to an eon"

What does EONIAN mean?

Could most modern translations be in error?
 
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Saint Steven

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THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY

The Bible, which is full of the missionary spirit, does not teach that there are several ways of salvation, one way by faith, another by works, another by ignorance, and another by innocence. Neither does it teach the God-dishonoring doctrine of fatalism. While it shows every other door of hope closed against the race, it throws wide open the one, only door, and proclaims that whosoever will may enter into life; and it shows that all who do not now see or appreciate the blessed privilege of entering shall in due time be brought to a full knowledge and appreciation. The ONLY WAY, by which any and all of the condemned race may come to God, is not by meritorious works, neither by ignorance, nor by innocence, but by a living faith in the precious blood of Christ, which takes away the sin of the world (I Pet. 1:19; Jn. 1:29). This is the Gospel, the good tidings of great joy, "which shall be unto all people."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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FineLinen

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1. True
2. False John 8:44, John 1:12
3. True
4. Maybe true, depending on what point you are trying to make.
5. False
6. True But that is not everything! John 6: 37, 39
7. False
8. True, but all prays are not answered yes!

Noli: You are in dire need of a new vision of the God of Glory.

In response to your sorry answer to question #8 consider this....

“I exhort, therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men.”

Would God inspire the hearts of his saints to pray for the salvation of all mankind, if he knew they would not all be saved?
 
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Der Alte

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Wrong! Just saying nuh-uh my guy has a better translation i.e. quoting a different interpretation/version is NOT proof of anything except the opinions of the single author.
The EOB is an Orthodox translation of the Bible. Unlike other versions, the EOB provides over 200 pages of introductory material and appendices, including articles by the late Protopresbyter George Florovsky and Miltiades Konstantinou of the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. [Greek] The main purpose of the EOB is to provide an accurate and easy-to-read English text of the Bible that is suitable for use by Orthodox Christian communities and individuals, while providing an outstanding text for scholars....
The New Testament (completed and available) is based on the official ecclesiastical text published in 1904 by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (again documenting all significant variants to the Critical Text, Majority Text and Textus Receptus). It also provides extensive footnotes and appendices dealing with significant verses such as Matthew 16:18; John 1:1,18; John 15:26. The Patriarchal Text was selected on Mount Athos from among a large number of reliable ecclesiastical manuscripts and appears to be identical or similar to Minuscule 1495 (KR subgroup).
As I have said "aionios" is translated "eternal" 63 times and "world" 3 times in the NT. The "eternal" translations cannot be proved to be anything but eternal.
So what is the logical meaning of "aionios?"
Here is a "proof" argument rather than "I have a better interpretation" argument.
Jesus used the word "aionios" 29 times. He never used it to refer to anything mundane which is definitely not eternal.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In these 2 verses Jesus, perhaps unintentionally, defines "aionios" as "eternal" by saying "eternal life"is a life that does not perish.
I can provide 22 more verses with similar proofs. Can your guys do that, proving that "aionios" means a finite age?


 
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ClementofA

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Wrong! Just saying nuh-uh my guy has a better translation i.e. quoting a different interpretation/version is NOT proof of anything except the opinions of the single author.

Just saying that & ignoring what i said does not disprove what i said.

Evidently you are missing the point, as i was - not - claiming "proof of anything", but rather posted alternate reasonable explanations to Mt.25:46 being a "proof text" vs universalism:

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?


That doesn't even address, let alone refute what i posted above.

"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley



As I have said "aionios" is translated "eternal" 63 times and "world" 3 times in the NT. The "eternal" translations cannot be proved to be anything but eternal.

Perhaps you should pay attention to your own remark above: "Wrong! Just saying nuh-uh my guy has a better translation i.e. quoting a different interpretation/version is NOT proof of anything except the opinions of the single author."
Evidently you don't follow your own advice. Ever hear the saying: "Do as i say, not as i do".

Secondly, the New Testament wasn't written in English. And there are hundreds of versions in English, most of which do not do what you said. They disagree much with each other. And you didn't even identify the translation you are referring to.

So what is the logical meaning of "aionios?"
Here is a "proof" argument rather than "I have a better interpretation" argument.
Jesus used the word "aionios" 29 times. He never used it to refer to anything mundane which is definitely not eternal.

That is no proof and has been shown to be a failure as a proof at the following post which you have never addressed, though it has been repeatedly posted to you:

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?


I can provide 22 more verses with similar proofs. Can your guys do that, proving that "aionios" means a finite age?

All your weak so-called proofs have been addresed before & shown to be wanting (e.g. see url above). And as for your question, there are examples (unlike yours) - absolutely - proving aion, aionion, olam and ad to be of a finite duration:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
Evidently you are missing the point, as i was - not - claiming "proof of anything", but rather posted alternate reasonable explanations to Mt.25:46 being a "proof text" vs universalism:
A "reasonable [biased UR] explanation" is only convincing to UR-ites with their assumptions/presuppositions.
An irrelevant generalization without scholarly support. And some UR "scholar" giving his/her unsupported opinion is no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall.
What part of my post was an appeal to authority? Your repeated reference to "two reasonable explanations" is a classic example of this fallacy. You quote to unnamed writers as authoritative. What if anything qualifies the writers to make definitive translations of Greek?

Secondly, the New Testament wasn't written in English. And there are hundreds of versions in English, most of which do not do what you said. They disagree much with each other. And you didn't even identify the translation you are referring to.
The translation I was quoting EOB. The rest is irrelevant. I don't rely on versions.
And as for your question, there are examples (unlike yours) - absolutely - proving aion, aionion, olam and ad to be of a finite duration:
Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek
:
Nonsense! Prove it. I don't mean "aionios" referring to something which is not "eternal." I mean "aionios" with an accompanying description that "aionios" is less than "eternal." I can't find one.
Once again I am not aware of anyone with such infinite knowledge they can determine which word(s) Jesus should or should not have used in any given situation. That is nothing but unsupported biased opinion.
 
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nolidad

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Well God commanded it so I do it! If they are all to be saved anyway- why would He even bother having us prayi in teh first place? Those prayers are just as futile as they are gonna get saved one way or another!

And my vision of the glory of God is just fine thank you! I bind my visions to what the revealed Word of God says! Protects all the saints from doctrine of demons and false light from the angel of light!
 
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nolidad

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If only they would realize that their premises and hypotheses of UR stand on such sdhaky and false linguistic scholarship!

From Fine Linen who said aionions can also mean quality of life
to C of A who thinks that aionios in the same sentence can mean a short time in one part and eternity in the second part of the same sentence!

They also do not like to research how Greek words developed (like English words) i.e Kolasis meaning corrective punishment! Even when I showed them they just can't accept it!
 
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nolidad

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Dear Saint Paul: Please be advised our own resident Noli says the Will of all wills is "horse pucky". Perhaps you should revise your words lol?

"Who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.." YLT

Twisting my words in front of me is really foolish on your part. That is not what I said and you will be held accountable for false witness!

That passage is best translated as desire based on teh verb and the rest of all the passages about who does and does not get saved!

Seems to me you think that the super majority of people cannot be drawn to God by His unfathomable love for them. So you think He is going to put them on a kebob stick and let them fry until they have had enough .

I guess when you can read my words correctly you can graduate to reading the Bible correctly as well! Just a thought!
 
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ClementofA

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A "reasonable (biased UR) explanation" is only convincing to UR-ites with their assumptions/presuppositions.

That's certainly false, considering that many - or perhaps the very great vast majority - of the Christian advocates of universalism or hopeful universalism today once believed as you did or as the endless annihating folks do.

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

An irrelevant generalization without scholarly support.

How is it irrelevant?

Scholarly support for how adjectives function? Is that remark to be taken seriously?

Or just another - desperate - say anything, make up your own pet theories not supported by anyone in the past 5000 years - to oppose universalism?

What part of my post was an appeal to authority?

Seriously? Recently you've been repeatedly touting EOB as your pope of all English Bible versions, (like KJV only is perfect Word of God guys) as if it's every statement is infallibly ex cathedra. Anything that differs from it is laconically dismissed without even considering its merit or addressing its points.

Your repeated reference to "two reasonable explanations" is a classic example of this fallacy.

That's an appeal to reason, not authority, & you've not addressed it with a reason based response. Only papal type authoritarianism.

You quote to unnamed writers as authoritative. What if anything qualifies the writers to make definitive translations of Greek?


Such as?

The translation I was quoting EOB. The rest is irrelevant. I don't rely on versions.

Huh? The EOB is a version, an English version. Not Koine Greek.

And where does EOB translate aionion as "world" 3 times in the NT?

Why did you omit at least two translations of aionion in the EOB, namely:

Titus 1:2 "before the age begun"
Philemon 15 "forever"

And if the EOB is so great, why does it consistently render doubled uses of aion in phrases as "ages of ages" instead of the misleading self contradictory "forever and ever" nonsense you've always supported? Are you now converted to agreeeing with EOB on this? Or do you remain faithful to your previous remarks & consider the EOB translations of aion to be wrong?


Nonsense! Prove it. I don't mean "aionios" referring to something which is not "eternal." I mean "aionios" with an accompanying description that "aionios" is less than "eternal." I can't find one.



Like anything on these lists you've probably never even read:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Or something like this, where i - proved - what you were requesting:

Irrelevant. If you want to prove that then go through the OT and show verses where "olam" is defined by other words or phrases as I did.

A verse or verses which define/describe olam or ad as eternal/eternity with another adjective, noun or phrase. .

To use your type of reasoning, in Psa.77:5 olam/aionia is opposite "old[qedem]/ancient=744/Gk. Old & ancient are not eternal, but finite. Therefore Olam/aionia are defined/described as finite.

Similarly in Deut.32:7 olam/aion is opposite generations of generations past which are finite. So olam/aion are finite.

Likewise in Isa.51:9 olam is opposite "of old" which is finite. And aion is opposite the "early time"/"days" past, which is finite.

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old,[qedem] the generations of long ago[owlam-im]. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time, as the ancient[αἰῶνος/165] generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

ἐξεγείρου ἐξεγείρου Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔνδυσαι τὴν ἰσχὺν τοῦ βραχίονός σου ἐξεγείρου ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ ἡμέρας ὡς γενεὰαἰῶνος οὐ σὺ εἶ

"...as in [the] beginning of days[2250], as a generation of an eon[165]" (Isa.51:9b, The Apostolic Bible Polygot: Greek English Intelinear [of the LXX], p.968).


Once again I am not aware of anyone with such infinite knowledge they can determine which word(s) Jesus should or should not have used in any given situation. That is nothing but unsupported biased opinion.

No, usage determines meaning. Aionios is often proven to be finite by many examples. Seldom, if ever, in Koine Greek does it indicate endlessness. Therefore it is a poor choice of a word if Jesus intended to use it to express endless punishment. He had multiple other clear & unambiguous words & expressions He could have used if it was His intention to warn about a future endless punishment:

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Furthermore, we see here how your own quotes support that:


If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.


Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?[/QUOTE]
 
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nolidad

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All this is blah,blah,blah blah!

Once again if the sum of those verses you posted were the sum total of the verses that described duration in the lake of fire, that would end it! But it isn't so you have to rely on real sketchy scholarship. If you are to be believed, the Greek speaking word (or greater than 99% of it) is all wrong in the understanding of the words they use based on non Greek speakers and their rambling philosophical opines! Yes Kolasis, aionios, aidios, and timora as well as paideia are still in use today and mean the same as they did in koine greek or common greek!

YOu have gone so far as to accuse the super majority of translators (all credentialed) with either gorss incompentence, ignorance, or things far darker in the most accepted translations.

YOu cannot accept that the hard transliteral translations only carry the harshest of literalism without any thought to how the words are used in everydsay understanding by the authors!

Because the Jews had no Word for eternal they used olam or hidden. It also was used of undefined time! Which one is which? Context and understanding of the subjects! That is why God is eternal (owlam) while a kings reign when he starts is owlam(an undefined time)

But all the phony scholarship you have presented on Mtt. 25:46 to try to defend that aionios for punishment is limted while aionios for life is ternal fails on every level of grammar! And no matter what- we can only understand things by Grammar!
 
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FineLinen

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Well God commanded it so I do it! If they are all to be saved anyway- why would He even bother having us prayi in teh first place? Those prayers are just as futile as they are gonna get saved one way or another!

Perhaps you can disclose why you bother to pray something the Father of all fathers has zero intention of doing? Why Noli, why?

Take 2 (two)

“I exhort, therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men.”

Would God inspire the hearts of his saints to pray for the salvation of all mankind, if He knew they would not all be saved?
 
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FineLinen

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Twisting my words in front of me is really foolish on your part. That is not what I said and you will be held accountable for false witness!
Perhaps you would like to revise your 8 answers to the 8 questions, Noli?

Those 8 answers are enshrined in black & white before us.
 
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FineLinen

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1. True
2. False John 8:44, John 1:12
3. True
4. Maybe true, depending on what point you are trying to make.
5. False
6. True But that is not everything! John 6: 37, 39
7. False
8. True, but all prays are not answered yes!

Welcome back!
 
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ClementofA

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All this is blah,blah,blah blah!

Once again if the sum of those verses you posted were the sum total of the verses that described duration in the lake of fire, that would end it!

So evidently you think other verses - trump - those verses. While i don't.


I'm all ears if you have some evidence to support these unsupported opinions.

YOu have gone so far as to accuse the super majority of translators (all credentialed) with either gorss incompentence, ignorance, or things far darker in the most accepted translations.

What are their biases? Are they endless punishment biased? Then why should it surprise you when they create cloned copies of other versions parroting each other? Poly wanna a cracker?




YOu cannot accept that the hard transliteral translations only carry the harshest of literalism without any thought to how the words are used in everydsay understanding by the authors!

It's enlightening to know what i think! I'll have to refer to you more often! Not only for my thoughts but insights into the minds of those producing all the "hard transliteral translations"!

Because the Jews had no Word for eternal they used olam or hidden.

If nothing else, they had "no end" (Psa.102:27). Though there are probably other Hebrew words or expressions to state endlessness, just as the Greek has quite a few:


If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:


If you think you have evidence to support your views, then i invite you to try to refute the evidence i've posted here:

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
 
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Saint Steven

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Suppose we now look at these things just as God tells us of them, and leave the clearing of His character to Himself. Let us inquire, what has become of this one hundred and sixty billions of people who have lived upon this planet? Whatever may be their present condition, it cannot be their full reward; for Peter says, "The Lord knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (II Pet. 2:9); and He will do so. But the thought that so many of our fellow creatures should at any time be lost from lack of having had the knowledge which is necessary to salvation would be sad indeed to all who have a spark of love or compassion. Then, too, there are numerous Scriptures which it seems impossible to harmonize with all this. Let us see: In the light of the past and the present as the only opportunities, laying aside all hope through a restoration in the coming age and ages, how shall we understand the statements, "God is love," and "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish" (I Din. 4:8; Din. 3:16)? Would it not seem that if God truly loved the world so much He might have made provision, not only that believers might be saved, but that ALL MIGHT HEAR IN ORDER TO BELIEVE?

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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nolidad

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simply? Because He commands it! And also I do not know who will and who will not be saved!
 
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nolidad

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Perhaps you would like to revise your 8 answers to the 8 questions, Noli?

Those 8 answers are enshrined in black & white before us.

I am fine with them.
 
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nolidad

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I have addressed these all before. I guess you just ignored them. Well you can look them up . Why shpould I write them for about the fifth time?
 
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