Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[eleos1954]

How do you respond to the first sentence of the post you quoted? Here it is again.

"Untold billions of human beings have lived and died without hearing the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

The promise (Jesus) has always been there ... since the beginning of the human race, actually before creation.

The plan of salvation was put in place before creation.

1st Peter 1:20

1 Peter 1:20
He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.

What and how He (Jesus) revealed Himself in very early ancient times in great detail we are not privy to ... we have glimpses and as time goes on more details are revealed through His written word. We have the blessing of and benefits of written history.

We do know it was understood salvation is through Jesus who is God (it was Jesus in the garden). Did Adam & Eve tell their children of their experiences? Yes of course ... and did then their children do the same? Yes of course. and on and on until we have the written word that documents in writing the history of mankind to the extent the Lord provides.

His written word contains what He wants us to know ... not everything we want to know.

I have no doubt what information was provided was sufficient for people to make their choices to believe God/Jesus and follow Him through what knowledge was revealed to them and through the work of the Holy Spirit guiding them. They had a benefit of history .... also remember people lived a very long time back then ... so they did have the benefit of history as well .... and that history was conveyed orally until it was written.

 

[nolidad]

Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?

This question is addressed in the book
The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Here's the opening paragraph.

AMONG all the questions that men have asked, there is one that is of supreme interest and importance. Why are we here? What is our destiny? What lies beyond the grave for the Christian, for the unbeliever? For old, for young? For our fellow citizens, and for the teeming masses in far-away lands serving strange gods? These questions were raised by one of the great poets of all times. I am speaking now of that American genius of letters, Edgar Allen Poe - an incomparable genius, and yet a man whose life was destroyed by unbelief. Millions of people have read his masterpiece, "The Raven," but few, I am afraid, have ever grasped the real spiritual significance of the struggle that was going on in the soul of this man. He asked four very significant questions - questions which every living soul, at one, time or another, must raise to God. First, Is there a God who comforts? Is there a God who can assuage the pain of life? (In this case it is the poignant pain of the loss of a loved one, his beloved Lenore.) Is there "some water from the river of paradise, the water of Nephenthe," which can take away the heartache that is driving him insane? Secondly, he asks, Is there really a Christ? Does He live? Is there a balm in Gilead? Is there One who can smoothe the wrinkled brow and soften the hard heart? Thirdly, he asks, Is there some place, some heaven, some distant Eden or future world where we shall be joined again with our loved ones? And, finally, Is there any hope that the darkness and hopelessness and despair of this life will be lifted? But always he directs his questions to his own unbelief which is personified in that grim and ghastly raven, a picture of doubt and unbelief. A few years after writing those chilling words, Poe became insane. Regaining his sanity, he drank himself to death, and this genius was found dead in the gutter.

Source: Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1


Audio version: By J. Preston Eby Audio – Kingdom Resources

Well you and J Preston Eby forget several things! First Jesus could never fail.

Second, you have no sscripture to show that after death men can repent. Only philosophy.

Third. God Himself put the caveat to be saved---believe!

Fourth you reject all the verses that show that portions of mankind suffer day and night with no rest for ever and ever!

Fifth: Please do not start the phony word games of forever! I proved to fine lined she was desperately wrong!

 

[Saint Steven]

This is not to deny that the world is filled with many evils; that all about us we see that sin and evil and disease and death cling to man. It is not to shut our eyes to those realities, but it is to open our eyes to the realization that God sovereignly overwhelms all these things to bring about His own will. God has created this world. Even though Satan let chaos loose into the midst of the creation, God created Satan and God knew precisely what this angel of destruction would contribute. He knew of the chaos and the sin that would be introduced into the peaceful calm of those Elysium fields. Yet God created him anyway. God knew that with sin would come the perfect judgment of God upon that sin, which means sickness, death, judgment, disillusionment and decay. Yet, God ordained all these things so that He might overcome them for good.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[nolidad]

How do you respond to the first sentence of the post you quoted? Here it is again.

"Untold billions of human beings have lived and died without hearing the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Well maybe you have yet to read this part of the Bible:

Ephesians 2:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

And as for people since the gospel became the message of salvation, but who have never heard to believe?

Romans 10:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

I would love to believe like you and Fine linen that everyone including all the demons will be saved! It would cut down evangelistic work and support of missionaries alot! But then I would have to deny huge swaths of
Scripture

 

[Saint Steven]

The promise (Jesus) has always been there ... since the beginning of the human race, actually before creation.

The plan of salvation was put in place before creation.

1st Peter 1:20

1 Peter 1:20
He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.

What and how He (Jesus) revealed Himself in very early ancient times in great detail we are not privy to ... we have glimpses and as time goes on more details are revealed through His written word. We have the blessing of and benefits of written history.

We do know it was understood salvation is through Jesus who is God (it was Jesus in the garden). Did Adam & Eve tell their children of their experiences? Yes of course ... and did then their children do the same? Yes of course. and on and on until we have the written word that documents in writing the history of mankind to the extent the Lord provides.

His written word contains what He wants us to know ... not everything we want to know.

I have no doubt what information was provided was sufficient for people to make their choices to believe God/Jesus and follow Him through what knowledge was revealed to them and through the work of the Holy Spirit guiding them. They had a benefit of history .... also remember people lived a very long time back then ... so they did have the benefit of history as well .... and that history was conveyed orally until it was written.

This seems like the western worldview Christian delusion to me. That somehow everyone throughout history and today somehow knows about Jesus and has made a conscious decision to either accept or reject him.

 

[martymonster]

Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Christ can be the saviour of the world, and not be the saviour of the world, at the same time.

 

[martymonster]

Also waiting for someone to show me the scripture, that says that Christ died to save us from an eternity in fiery torture.

Braces for influx of verses that have the words Hell, fire, or torment in them.

 

[eleos1954]

This seems like the western worldview Christian delusion to me. That somehow everyone throughout history and today somehow knows about Jesus and has made a conscious decision to either accept or reject him.

Jesus IS God ....

John 6:46
New International Version
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Hebrews 13:8
New International Version
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

John 14:6
New International Version
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

No one .... does that include Adam & Eve? Yes.

That somehow everyone throughout history and today somehow knows about Jesus and has made a conscious decision to either accept or reject him.

Again ... Jesus IS God .... did Adam & Eve make a conscious decision to disobey (reject) God? Yes. Could they have not made that choice? Yes

Are Adam & Eve and others who lived before Christ came in the form of a man or before the written word lost forever? Were they doomed to live lives of complete hopelessness? No. Where is the hope? The hope is in the promise. What specific promises did they know? We aren't privy to the details.

How did Abel know to bring a sacrifice of an animal to the Lord? Was he saved by the animal .... or .... by the blood of Christ - who is God? Or i dunno ... maybe you believe he wasn't saved.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than that of Cain, and through that faith he received the witness that he was righteous, for God approved his gifts, and although he died, he still speaks through his faith.

Is there anyway anyone who has ever lived on earth can enter heaven without being covered by the blood of Christ (who IS God)? No

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

That's a false dilemma. There's a third option.

 

[Der Alte]

Also waiting for someone to show me the scripture, that says that Christ died to save us from an eternity in fiery torture.
Braces for influx of verses that have the words Hell, fire, or torment in them.

Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.

 

[Der Alte]

Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Christ can be the saviour of the world, and not be the saviour of the world, at the same time.

My Bible has 31,172 verses. Evidently yours only has one.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day,* Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
*-judgement day​

What happens after judgement day and "I never knew you?" Where is that verse that says "Hey guys I changed my mind I do know you, come on in?"

 

[martymonster]

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

That's a false dilemma. There's a third option.

Please do tell?

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus IS God ....

John 6:46
New International Version
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Hebrews 13:8
New International Version
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

John 14:6
New International Version
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

No one .... does that include Adam & Eve? Yes.



Again ... Jesus IS God .... did Adam & Eve make a conscious decision to disobey (reject) God? Yes. Could they have not made that choice? Yes

Are Adam & Eve and others who lived before Christ came in the form of a man or before the written word lost forever? Were they doomed to live lives of complete hopelessness? No. Where is the hope? The hope is in the promise. What specific promises did they know? We aren't privy to the details.

How did Abel know to bring a sacrifice of an animal to the Lord? Was he saved by the animal .... or .... by the blood of Christ - who is God? Or i dunno ... maybe you believe he wasn't saved.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than that of Cain, and through that faith he received the witness that he was righteous, for God approved his gifts, and although he died, he still speaks through his faith.

Is there anyway anyone who has ever lived on earth can enter heaven without being covered by the blood of Christ (who IS God)? No

Of the countless billions who have, or will, live and die, what percentage would you estimate will end up in a forever burning hell?

 

[fhansen]

Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?

This question is addressed in the book
The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Here's the opening paragraph.

AMONG all the questions that men have asked, there is one that is of supreme interest and importance. Why are we here? What is our destiny? What lies beyond the grave for the Christian, for the unbeliever? For old, for young? For our fellow citizens, and for the teeming masses in far-away lands serving strange gods? These questions were raised by one of the great poets of all times. I am speaking now of that American genius of letters, Edgar Allen Poe - an incomparable genius, and yet a man whose life was destroyed by unbelief. Millions of people have read his masterpiece, "The Raven," but few, I am afraid, have ever grasped the real spiritual significance of the struggle that was going on in the soul of this man. He asked four very significant questions - questions which every living soul, at one, time or another, must raise to God. First, Is there a God who comforts? Is there a God who can assuage the pain of life? (In this case it is the poignant pain of the loss of a loved one, his beloved Lenore.) Is there "some water from the river of paradise, the water of Nephenthe," which can take away the heartache that is driving him insane? Secondly, he asks, Is there really a Christ? Does He live? Is there a balm in Gilead? Is there One who can smoothe the wrinkled brow and soften the hard heart? Thirdly, he asks, Is there some place, some heaven, some distant Eden or future world where we shall be joined again with our loved ones? And, finally, Is there any hope that the darkness and hopelessness and despair of this life will be lifted? But always he directs his questions to his own unbelief which is personified in that grim and ghastly raven, a picture of doubt and unbelief. A few years after writing those chilling words, Poe became insane. Regaining his sanity, he drank himself to death, and this genius was found dead in the gutter.

Source: Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1


Audio version: By J. Preston Eby Audio – Kingdom Resources

Those are all honest questions-imperative ones, in fact, if a person hasn't asked them yet! And the answer is yes, we don't have to live in despair. The God of love is real and can give us that assurance, including the assurance of the reality of eternal life for ourselves and others. If we want, if we don't prefer to wallow in our despair. And it's funny but pride, itself, can compel us to continue wallowing. Otherwise the answer is there, hanging on the cross if we dare to depart from the crowd long enough to behold it and contemplate for a moment what it means to tell us, about God and about ourselves. He begins to give us the grace from there-the grace to believe. Because that belief is our salvation as it opens the door to God and the life He has in store for us.

 

[eleos1954]

Of the countless billions who have, or will, live and die, what percentage would you estimate will end up in a forever burning hell?

well ... first of all I don't believe God is a torturer for eternity .... He is just and does invoke His wrath ... but for eternity? no ... I believe "hell" is the grave and when one dies they wait there "dormant" (described biblically as sleep) until they are resurrected ... with the 1st being that of the saved. (both views are supported biblically) I know of the different interpretations ... I agree to disagree with them.

As far as those who do not receive eternal life .... have no idea of a percentage ... but the bible states there will be multitudes (many) saved and multitudes (many) lost.

His Word also states it will be like in the days of Noah .... if that is an example then more lost than saved ... sadly.

 

[Der Alte]

Of the countless billions who have, or will, live and die, what percentage would you estimate will end up in a forever burning hell?

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[bTbRo]

not one single verse of scripture.

Why is this a problem with you?

 

[bTbRo]

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Where is the strait gate located on earth?

 

[Saint Steven]

well ... first of all I don't believe God is a torturer for eternity .... He is just and does invoke His wrath ... but for eternity? no ... I believe "hell" is the grave and when one dies they wait there "dormant" (described biblically as sleep) until they are resurrected ... with the 1st being that of the saved. (both views are supported biblically) I know of the different interpretations ... I agree to disagree with them.

As far as those who do not receive eternal life .... have no idea of a percentage ... but the bible states there will be multitudes (many) saved and multitudes (many) lost.

His Word also states it will be like in the days of Noah .... if that is an example then more lost than saved ... sadly.

So, you are an Annihilationist then?

 

[Saint Steven]

Central to the whole plan of God is Jesus Christ and His greater glory, but even more amazing is the realization that God has planned for us to share His glory and to work out for us our good as well. God has a perfect plan. My friends, I want you to understand one thing. This plan needs no human support! In Madrid, Spain, there exists the Escorial, one of the greatest cathedrals ever built by man. For centuries the kings of Spain have been buried there. When that magnificent structure was under construction, the architect designed a vast arch, perhaps bigger than anything that had been built before. However, that arch was so flat at the top that the reigning king was frightened by the prospect of the tremendous weight of the roof collapsing on his head. He commanded the architect to build a column from the floor all the way to the center of that arch to hold it up. The architect protested vehemently that it was not needed, but the king insisted and, over the laments of the architect, the column was built. The king worshipped contentedly in the vast structure, having seen to it himself that the ceiling would not fall. The years went by, the church stood, and the king finally died. Only then did the architect reveal that between the top of the column and the bottom of the arch there was a quarter of an inch of space. In all these hundreds of years that have passed the arch has not sunk so much as a quarter of an inch. Today a board is still passed over the column and under the arch for all to see. So it is with the plan of God - that over-arching plan that encompasses all of reality and all of life. It needs no human support to hold it up. God is the LORD OF ALL and He is working out His purposes in our lives, in all of the world, and through the whole universe.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1