saved by grace or by works

[Doug Brents]

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV

Romans 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV

No reference is made here regarding Abraham's obedience continributing to his being accounted as righteous (beinb justified).

Not in those verses, no.

But in James 2:20-24, “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

This passage compliments and adds clarity to the ones you quoted, in that it clarifies what faith is, and it’s relationship with action. If there is no action, then faith is dead, useless, and worthless.

 

[Doug Brents]

I already stated my view to you here saved by grace or by works

So I disagree with your view "What Paul wrote agrees with what Peter wrote agrees with what Mark, and Luke, and James etc. wrote."

If you accept that different parts of the Bible are addressed to

• Different groups of people
• at different points of time.

you cannot conclude that.

Not at all. There are many places that are written to the saved, but not to the lost, and there are passages that are for the lost, but not the saved, etc. But there must be compelling evidence to show that something said then applies to the first century but not the twenty first. And there is nothing of that sort in any of the passages we have been discussing.

Also, as I said, there is no contradiction in Scripture. There is not one way to salvation for one group, and another way to salvation for another group. There is only the single, narrow path to salvation, and the broad path (all other paths) that leads to Hell (destruction).

 

[Guojing]

Also, as I said, there is no contradiction in Scripture. There is not one way to salvation for one group, and another way to salvation for another group. There is only the single, narrow path to salvation, and the broad path (all other paths) that leads to Hell (destruction).

I agree with you there is no contradiction in scripture.

But it does not then follow that "What Paul wrote agrees with what Peter wrote agrees with what Mark, and Luke, and James etc. wrote.""

Once you accept that God has different instructions to different audience at different points of time, they can write different instructions, and yet there is no contradiction

 

[Guojing]

Is it your position that these different authors, superintended by the Holy Spirit, wrote of different ways/means of salvation?

Salvation boils down to obeying what God instructed, in faith.

It is only "but now", that God commanded us to have faith apart from works of any kind (Romans 4:5)

That command was different for Noah, different for Abraham, different from Abel etc, as Hebrews 11 indicated. All of them had to do a work of some kind, to show their faith.

For example, if Noah did not obey God instruction to build an ark, he would not have been saved.

If Abraham was unwilling to move out from his present home and go to a new land that God told him to go, likewise he would not have been saved.

If Abel did not offer the correct sacrifice, he would not have been saved.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

It wasn't a different reaction, it was all done in faith, without faith it is impossible to please God. All the actions were done in faith according to what was asked of them. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, belief in God (faith) was demonstrated by their action. James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree with you there is no contradiction in scripture.

But it does not then follow that "What Paul wrote agrees with what Peter wrote agrees with what Mark, and Luke, and James etc. wrote.""

Once you accept that God has different instructions to different audience at different points of time, they can write different instructions, and yet there is no contradiction

I’m sorry, but that is not at all correct.

As I said, there are places where the text is explicit that it is talking to one group of people and not another. For example, 1 John 1:7 - “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” This passage is clearly to those who have already been saved. It is a promise that as long as we are continually walking in the Light (striving to live for God, sacrificing self daily, and turning away from darkness) we will be continually cleansed of the sins we do commit when we stumble. This does not apply to those who have never been saved because they have not yet come in contact with the blood of Christ in the first place.

But there must be clear evidence in the text, or good reasoning from other Scriptures, that indicate that the passage only pertains to a certain group. Otherwise, we must act as if every Scripture applies to us as well as to those in the first century to whom it was originally addressed.

An example of this is the “Great Commission” found in Mark 16 and in Matt 28. This was addressed directly to the Apostles and the other disciples who witnessed Jesus’ ascension into Heaven. But it applies equally to us today. Why? According to Acts 8:4, when the disciples in Jerusalem were persecuted, they scattered throughout the world, and preached the Gospel wherever they went. This included the disciples who were there when Jesus ascended into Heaven, but it also included all those others who were converted on Pentecost and after. So by example and by the direct command itself, this instruction applies to all Christians in all times in all places.

And the Holy Spirit through Mark’s version of the Great Commission said that whoever “believes and is baptized will be saved”. In so doing, the Holy Spirit, through Jesus’ own words, irrevocably linked baptism with salvation from that moment on.

 

[Soyeong]

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV

Romans 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV

No reference is made here regarding Abraham's obedience continributing to his being accounted as righteous (beinb justified).

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:4-5). However, Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

There are also many other verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him or connects our belief with our disobedience. For example, in James 2:18 he said that he would show his faith by his works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith an example of works. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience is referred to as breaking faith.

So the way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so when do what is righteous in obedience to God's law, we are expressing the belief that God is righteous, or in other words, we are believing in Him. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, in Psalms 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth, in John 1:14, the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, and in John 14:6, Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life, so he was claiming to be the living embodiment of God's law, which is evidenced by the fact that he lived in sinless obedience to it. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the personification of God's nature expressed by God's law, or the physical manifestation of God's law, so obedience to the law of which he is the living embodiment is the way to have faith in him.

 

[msortwell]

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17)

Belief can certainly be understood to produce the two different results. But that is very different from logically deducing that one result (obedience) contributes to the other result (justification) in any way. With genuine belief (faith), both things will occur (justification and good works), but that does not substantiate that good works contribute, in any way, to justification.

 

[Guojing]

It wasn't a different reaction, it was all done in faith, without faith it is impossible to please God. All the actions were done in faith according to what was asked of them. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, belief in God (faith) was demonstrated by their action. James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I didn’t say different reaction, I said different commands from God on what to do.

God did not tell Abraham to build an ark.
God did not tell Abel to leave his home and go another place
And so on.

God has one specific command for us to do, that is found in Romans 4:5. If we obey that, we show faith, just like all of them

 

[Guojing]

I’m sorry, but that is not at all correct.

As I said, there are places where the text is explicit that it is talking to one group of people and not another. For example, 1 John 1:7 - “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” This passage is clearly to those who have already been saved. It is a promise that as long as we are continually walking in the Light (striving to live for God, sacrificing self daily, and turning away from darkness) we will be continually cleansed of the sins we do commit when we stumble. This does not apply to those who have never been saved because they have not yet come in contact with the blood of Christ in the first place.

But there must be clear evidence in the text, or good reasoning from other Scriptures, that indicate that the passage only pertains to a certain group. Otherwise, we must act as if every Scripture applies to us as well as to those in the first century to whom it was originally addressed.

An example of this is the “Great Commission” found in Mark 16 and in Matt 28. This was addressed directly to the Apostles and the other disciples who witnessed Jesus’ ascension into Heaven. But it applies equally to us today. Why? According to Acts 8:4, when the disciples in Jerusalem were persecuted, they scattered throughout the world, and preached the Gospel wherever they went. This included the disciples who were there when Jesus ascended into Heaven, but it also included all those others who were converted on Pentecost and after. So by example and by the direct command itself, this instruction applies to all Christians in all times in all places.

And the Holy Spirit through Mark’s version of the Great Commission said that whoever “believes and is baptized will be saved”. In so doing, the Holy Spirit, through Jesus’ own words, irrevocably linked baptism with salvation from that moment on.

That why I asked, in the original question to you,

what if you found out that Mark 16:16 is not written as instructions to

• You
• for this period of time?

You may not realized that now, that is fine. All of us take some time to accept new info.

But in the future, if you happen to understand where I am coming from, you will view things differently

 

[Doug Brents]

You may not realized that now, that is fine. All of us take some time to accept new info.

But in the future, if you happen to understand where I am coming from, you will view things differently

Oh, I know exactly where you are coming from, and I understand what you are saying.

I agree that there are some things written to particular groups. And some things are written to particular times. But the passages I have cited are universal. They don’t apply to one group but not another; they apply to everyone, of all times, in all places.

 

[Guojing]

Oh, I know exactly where you are coming from, and I understand what you are saying.

I agree that there are some things written to particular groups. And some things are written to particular times. But the passages I have cited are universal. They don’t apply to one group but not another; they apply to everyone, of all times, in all places.

If someone told me the same thing a few years ago, I would also conclude like you.

Give it some time. =)

 

[ralliann]

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV

Romans 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV

No reference is made here regarding Abraham's obedience continributing to his being accounted as righteous (beinb justified).

What james says is implied in Paul's statement.

"Was strengthened in faith", faith has works.
What was he convinced that God was able to perform?

Hebrews also tells of this.

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham clearly told the men HIM AND ISAAC would be back... like Hebrews says

Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

 

[Doug Brents]

If someone told me the same thing a few years ago, I would also conclude like you.

Give it some time. =)

Ok, as I said, there must be compelling evidence that the passage applys to one group but not another: what evidence do you see that any of the passages I cited or quoted don’t apply to us today?

 

[Soyeong]

Belief can certainly be understood to produce the two different results. But that is very different from logically deducing that one result (obedience) contributes to the other result (justification) in any way. With genuine belief (faith), both things will occur (justification and good works), but that does not substantiate that good works contribute, in any way, to justification.

There can be any number of reasons for doing good works other than for the purpose of contributing to earning our justification as a wage, so the fact that there are many verses that speak against trying to do that does not mean that there aren't correct reasons for why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law (Romans 2:13). Likewise, here are more verses that chose that choosing obedience is required for justification/righteous/salvation/eternal life: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, Titus 2:11-14, Ephesians 2:10, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:7, and Luke 10:25-28. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), living in obedience to God's law is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. Again, James 2:21 directly states that Abraham was justified by his works.

 

[msortwell]

There can be any number of reasons for doing good works other than for the purpose of contributing to earning our justification as a wage, so the fact that there are many verses that speak against trying to do that does not mean that there aren't correct reasons for why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law (Romans 2:13). Likewise, here are more verses that chose that choosing obedience is required for justification/righteous/salvation/eternal life: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, Titus 2:11-14, Ephesians 2:10, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:7, and Luke 10:25-28. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), living in obedience to God's law is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. Again, James 2:21 directly states that Abraham was justified by his works.

EVERYONE is required to obey God’s moral law - the believing AND the unbelieving. That doesn’t change when one comes to trust in Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Ok, as I said, there must be compelling evidence that the passage applys to one group but not another: what evidence do you see that any of the passages I cited or quoted don’t apply to us today?

Well for one thing, no one preach Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"

They changed the term everything to mean not everything, because its impossible to teach anyone now to obey everything Jesus taught Israel to obey in the book of Matthew, not even counting those commands by Jesus found in Luke, Mark and John.

So no one is obeying the Great Commission today, no matter how much they deny that.

 

[Soyeong]

EVERYONE is required to obey God’s moral law - the believing AND the unbelieving. That doesn’t change when one comes to trust in Christ.

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws and there is no example in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral.

 

[msortwell]

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws and there is no example in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral.

The term "moral law" is a useful term to distinguish between the 10 commandments (moral law) and the civil, the ceremonial/religious laws, and the laws governing the priesthood. Each grouping of laws was codified within the Mosiac Covenant (MC). The civil, the ceremonial/religious laws, and the laws governing the priesthood were unique to the MC, but the 10 commandments merely codified laws that God's people (and all of humanity to some exent) understood, as evidenced by the pre-MC Sriptures documenting various sins and the worship practices of men. In as much as the moral laws predated the MC and are reitereated in the NT under the New Covenant, the moral laws (10 commandments) remain in effect - unlike the remaining MC laws.

 

[Soyeong]

The term "moral law" is a useful term to distinguish between the 10 commandments (moral law) and the civil, the ceremonial/religious laws, and the laws governing the priesthood. Each grouping of laws was codified within the Mosiac Covenant (MC). The civil, the ceremonial/religious laws, and the laws governing the priesthood were unique to the MC, but the 10 commandments merely codified laws that God's people (and all of humanity to some exent) understood, as evidenced by the pre-MC Sriptures documenting various sins and the worship practices of men. In as much as the moral laws predated the MC and are reitereated in the NT under the New Covenant, the moral laws (10 commandments) remain in effect - unlike the remaining MC laws.

The way that people choose to categorize God's laws varies from person to person, such as some people considering the laws like those against rape, incest, homosexual sex, kidnapping, favoritism, and the greatest two commandments to be moral laws even though they aren't listed as part of the Ten Commandments. If your understanding of the list of laws that are moral laws is not identical to that of the authors of the Bible, then you are misunderstanding them by interpreting them as referring to the concept of moral law that you created, so in order to correctly understand the Bible you would need to show that you have derived your list of which laws are moral from the Bible, however, then Bible never specifies that the Ten Commandments or any of God's other commandments are moral laws as opposed to other laws and it never even refers to the category of moral law. The category of moral law implies that it is moral to disobey the laws that are not in that category, but there are no examples where the Bible considers disobedience to any of God's laws to be moral, nor do I see any justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God.

I could categorize God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey it, such as the law against theft being a hand law, but if I were to interpret a verse as referring to a category that I had created without establishing that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in the same manner, and then create my own doctrine out of the categories that I had created, such as saying that we should only follow hand laws, then I would be making the same sort of error that you are making.

Likewise, the Bible never refers lists which laws are civil or ceremonial and never refers to those as being categories of law. Laws in regard to marriage can arguably be considered to be in regard to moral, civil, and ceremonial issues, just as the law against theft can arguably be considered to be a hand law, so I'm not saying that we don't have the freedom to determine whether the laws in regard to marriage best belong in the category of moral, civil, or ceremonial law, but that we should not interpret the authors of the Bible as speaking about categories that we have created especially in order to create our own doctrine, like we should only follow the laws that we have decided are moral laws. Again, morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws, and if someone claims that God has commanded laws that we ought not to obey, then they are claiming to have greater moral knowledge than God. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, which is also referred to as the Mosaic Law.