Saved by Faith or grace?

[LoveofTruth]

to all:

But we know that there is none righteous no not one
The only righteousness we can have is in Christ and then he is made unto us righteousness.

Therefore we can say the Lord is our righteousness.

So to have faith imputed or reckoned as righteousness is from God's perspective and His work on the cross and His work in us. All our own righteousness is as filthy rags. But as we believe God and have faith in His word he counts that or reckons that or imputes that as righteousness and for righteousness.

Part of the problem in understanding this is that there is an inward work in the heart. This is where God desires truth in the inward part and in the hidden part. This is the secrets of men and God searches the heart. How we receive or reject the seed that is sown in the heart God knows and he can see if we do receive His word and believe in the heart, and with the heart man believes unto righteousness. So when Abraham believed God this took place inwardly first. This is the part we don't see and some of the text don't comment on this, although that is the reality.

 

[Bible2+]

LoveofTruth said in post #1:

But in scripture we read that we are saved by grace through faith

That's right. And also works.

For note that while initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's right. And also works.

For note that while initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

and what works are those?

no person can merit grace by a work he does, or have a man perform some sacrament and give Him grace by a work he does. The works are of God, the work He did without us on the cross and the work he does in us at the new birth and during our walk in the Spirit and our daily faith as we abide in Christ.

This is a verse many seem to have missed

Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

and this section

"20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen

 

[LoveofTruth]

Really going around the barn on this one. We are saved by Gods unmerited favor through faith. So we need to get over it. We dont deserve this grace its given. And one HAS TO have faith to believe John 3:16. As I see it.

Grace is not just a unmerited favour from God, but it is His actual influence in the heart through Christ and the reflection in our lives. Paul speaks of the "word of His grace" that is able to build us up. He tells the Colossians to Let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly, and through this they are able to teach and admonish one another. paul says our words should be alway with grace. He said at another time "I say, by the grace given unto me..."

So this grace is God's spiritual working in our hearts and we live and move in this grace in the Spirit as we abide in Christ. If we do not talk of grace this way as well as unmerited favour. Then grace becomes only something on God's part that he does without us. But the grace of God works in us as well, and the gift he gives is by grace.

Here is another few verses about this grace

"
1 Peter 4:10
As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

there are many more

This is a wonderful mystery and our fellowship is in the mystery of Christ. But some cannot be spoken to spiritually, meat is for those who have their spiritual senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Some miss all spiritual truth and are distracted to the carnal aspects or the basic principles.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you are implying that God makes some humans and his rebel son Satan makes other humans, then let’s just agree to disagree and go our separate ways.

Thanks

men can also be involved in this making others a child of hell

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Acts 13:10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy ofall righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?


I must say that I am strongly against the Urantia book, I pray for you that you would see the truth of it as I did many many years ago and be free.

When I see your post that is the first thing I am weary of, that book you mention.

 

[Wordkeeper]

But we know that there is none righteous no not one
The only righteousness we can have is in Christ and then he is made unto us righteousness.

Therefore we can say the Lord is our righteousness.

So to have faith imputed or reckoned as righteousness is from Gods perspective and His work on the cross and His work in us . all our own righteousness is as filthy rags. But as we believe God and have faith in His word he counts that or reckons that or imputes that as righteousness and for righteousness.

Part of the problem in understanding this is that there is an inward work in the heart. This is where God desires truth in the inward part and in the hidden part. This is the secrets of men and God searches the heart. How we receive or reject the seed that is sown in the heart God knows and he can see if we do receive His word and believe in the heart, and with the heart man believes unto righteousness. So when Abraham believed God this took place inwardly first. This is the part we don't see and some of the text don't comment on this, although that is the reality

When Paul writes that there is no one righteous, it was to correct the Gentiles, who thought God had cut off Israel because she had become less righteous than the Gentiles, leading to boasting.

Not so said Paul, because all had missed God's mark. Even Israel was chosen by leniency, not needing to meet a standard.

Grace is if you go to a dinner wearing a t shirt when the invitation said black tie, and the host is gracious, lenient, and says, "Don't worry, please come in" instead of throwing you out.

 

[Colter]

men can also be involved in this making others a child of hell

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Acts 13:10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy ofall righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?


I must say that I am strongly against the Urantia book, I pray for you that you would see the truth of it as I did many many years ago and be free.

When I see your post that is the first thing I am weary of, that book you mention.

All new truth is at first hated! Had you been a Jew during Jesus' day, would you have hated his Liberal teachings as well? Would you have used the doctrine of the inspiration of the scripture to resist his truth from penetrating your heart? Would you have been one of the legalistic quibbler with him like you are with me? Has religion learned nothing from what it did to the Son of God in name of a false sence of sacredness about its man made scriptures?

It's in the beginning of the bible:

"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

Satan was just a deluded liar, he didn't create anything except confusion.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Grace is if you go to a dinner wearing a t shirt when the invitation said black tie, and the host is gracious, lenient, and says, "Don't worry, please come in" instead of throwing you out.

And I saw this to think about

Matthew 22 - 10. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12. And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “
When we put on Christ and are baptized into him then he is in us and we in him.

 

[Tony Hyman]

The way I understand it ,is that by "grace" i.e because the Lord chooses to give it,we also receive "faith" as a "gift" in terms of Eph 2:8.In other words "faith" is not something we choose to generate from ourselves (subjectively) it is objectively given by God due to His loving kindness and mercy.
Our deeds or conduct should be a demonstration to other brother and sisters in Christ as well as other non-believers that we represent the Body of Christ as children of God's family "the Spirit of sonship...16.The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."(Rom.8:15-16).

Sorry if this sounds rather elitist,but our behavior(deeds) should should reflect the fact that we are "children of God's family"(above) as an an example to the world that our Christlike deeds are all to the glory of God and not ourselves.

 

[fhansen]

Not really. You can't ask me the question.

It's like asking someone if his automobile is in perfect tune. He wouldn't know if he does not know how it works, what is expected of it.

If the Holy Spirit opens up Zcripture to you so that you know how God has made men, and what is the "tuned" condition, then you know what is expected.

For example, Paul says that when he sins, it is not he who sins, but sin within him. Jewish scholars call this yetzer hara, the carnal inclination. Carnal inclination is not bad, it ensures survival of a species. Most creatures would stop existing if eating was not pleasurable.

So when we start salivating over the delicious steak which is brought to the next table, it isn't coveting. It's how the body is built. The first result of the enlightening of the Holy Spirit: no unnecessary guilt.

The Church recognizes this state in fallen man as "concupiscence". We sin when our desires exceed nature's demands, when we turn wants into needs. Natural appetites for steaks or sex or pleasure in general, or for security: money, possessions, etc, or for power, are good. But when they become lusts, ends in themselves, they become harmful to ourselves or others (1 John 2:16). Guilt for natural inclinations is false guilt; guilt for coveting more than I need, and acting upon that covetousness, is something we're rightfully accountable for.

Anyway, faith is certainly not an excuse to escape our obligation to be righteous. But the New Covenant gives us a new avenue towards righteousness, towards authentic righteousness, and this begins, on our part, with faith in response to grace. Either way you've said nothing to lead me to believe me that you can't necessarily be one who fools themselves, not that I necessarily think you have. I've given good, albeit brief, reasons for why I might have a level of assurance without being rashly over-confident.

 

[truefiction1]

The way I understand it ,is that by "grace" i.e because the Lord chooses to give it,we also receive "faith" as a "gift" in terms of Eph 2:8.In other words "faith" is not something we choose to generate from ourselves (subjectively) it is objectively given by God due to His loving kindness and mercy.
Our deeds or conduct should be a demonstration to other brother and sisters in Christ as well as other non-believers that we represent the Body of Christ as children of God's family "the Spirit of sonship...16.The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."(Rom.8:15-16).

Sorry if this sounds rather elitist,but our behavior(deeds) should should reflect the fact that we are "children of God's family"(above) as an an example to the world that our Christlike deeds are all to the glory of God and not ourselves.

According to Orthodoxy, "grace" is not "favor". Grace is God Himself (in the form of His uncreated energies). Faith is both a gift of the Holy Spirit and the means by which the Holy Spirit can save a person by dwelling in them. Salvation is when a man's spirit connects with God's Spirit, Who gives Life to the man. It happens when a person's will to be one with God actively unites with God's will to be one with the person. This, on a human person's part, is called "repentance". True repentance "bears fruits of repentance". These are the works that flow out of a person's desire for oneness with God. These are the works of God, flowing through those who desire to be one with God, into the world. Wherever we see good works of Love, we are seeing the Glory of God being channeled through His people, with whom He has become One.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The Church recognizes this state in fallen man as "concupiscence". We sin when our desires exceed nature's demands, when we turn wants into needs. Natural appetites for steaks or sex or pleasure in general, or for security: money, possessions, etc, or for power, are good. But when they become lusts, ends in themselves, they become harmful to ourselves or others (1 John 2:16). Guilt for natural inclinations is false guilt; guilt for coveting more than I need, and acting upon that covetousness, is something we're rightfully accountable for.

Anyway, faith is certainly not an excuse to escape our obligation to be righteous. But the New Covenant gives us a new avenue towards righteousness, towards authentic righteousness, and this begins, on our part, with faith in response to grace. Either way you've said nothing to lead me to believe me that you can't necessarily be one who fools themselves. I've given good, albeit brief, reasons for why I might have a level of assurance without being rashly over-confident.

The point is that you claimed the Holy Spirit acted in this way :

I've been compelled or moved to help someone in some way, and virtues such as faith, hope, and love, (the basic defining virtues of man's justice) increase in me as I do.

There is no proof that what you described is unequivocally a transformation initiated by the Holy Spirit as non believers have also been moved to great deeds of philanthropy without the benefit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Also concupiscence does not explain why you continue to have bad thoughts or do bad things.

The difference in my experience is that i no longer measure transformation in terms of altruistic or moral change or lack (its not me that sinned, getting bad thoughts or feelings, it's sin within me) but rather measure it by remaining in Christ, having his words abide in me, being loyal, keeping the faith, because faith is rewarded with grace, favor, and grace is sufficient for what God has created me for.

This is the enlightenment that the Holy Spirit leads into, confirmed by many passages in Scripture. Whilst on the other hand nowhere does any experience of grace sanctifying a believer ever get mentioned.

The evidence you describe will never prepare you for what God has created man for.

Hint: it's not sufficient and it's not for entry into heaven.

 

[Wordkeeper]

And I saw this to think about

Matthew 22 - 10. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12. And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “
When we put on Christ and are baptized into him then he is in us and we in him.

That is when the Israelites went into the desert claiming they would be unconditionally loyal to God and failed. God was not pleased with them and swore they would never enter His rest.

The grace we are talking about is when God chose Israel even when she did not meet the standards of being chosen. He had mercy on whom He wished to have mercy. It was sad that Israel did not rise to the occasion and make use of the opportunity God gave her.

These are very serious issues, which if your church members who are in error when they do not understand, will lead to great loss on their part. The unprepared guest was not Jewish. But he made the same mistake as Israel. If the natural branches can be cut off...

Simon the Sorcerer was baptized, invited to the wedding feast, the feast of oversufficiency of righteousness. Too bad his baptism didn't save him.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The way I understand it ,is that by "grace" i.e because the Lord chooses to give it,we also receive "faith" as a "gift" in terms of Eph 2:8.In other words "faith" is not something we choose to generate from ourselves (subjectively) it is objectively given by God due to His loving kindness and mercy.
Our deeds or conduct should be a demonstration to other brother and sisters in Christ as well as other non-believers that we represent the Body of Christ as children of God's family "the Spirit of sonship...16.The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."(Rom.8:15-16).

Sorry if this sounds rather elitist,but our behavior(deeds) should should reflect the fact that we are "children of God's family"(above) as an an example to the world that our Christlike deeds are all to the glory of God and not ourselves.

This is very abstract and probably unsunstantiated. In plain terms it means that God gives certain people faith and faith leads to salvation. We often explain that the people who refused a free gift just weren't given the ability to believe. Actually, people don't believe because nothing in the real world operates like that.

The gospel isn't that God loved the world so much that he gave his only son so that whoever believed in him would not perish but have eternal life.

The gospel is that God loved the world so much that he gave his only son so that whoever believed in him, had his words remain in him, would not perish, but have eternal life. Faith is wrongly translated as belief. In the Ancient Near East, it was understood as being loyal.

 

[Wordkeeper]

According to Orthodoxy, "grace" is not "favor". Grace is God Himself (in the form of His uncreated energies). Faith is both a gift of the Holy Spirit and the means by which the Holy Spirit can save a person by dwelling in them. Salvation is when a man's spirit connects with God's Spirit, Who gives Life to the man. It happens when a person's will to be one with God actively unites with God's will to be one with the person. This, on a human person's part, is called "repentance". True repentance "bears fruits of repentance". These are the works that flow out of a person's desire for oneness with God. These are the works of God, flowing through those who desire to be one with God, into the world. Wherever we see good works of Love, we are seeing the Glory of God being channeled through His people, with whom He has become One.

So the people who have given millions to charity have the Holy Spirit running through them?

 

[truefiction1]

That is when the Israelites went into the desert claiming they would be unconditionally loyal to God and failed. God was not pleased with them and swore they would never enter His rest.

The grace we are talking about is when God chose Israel even when she did not meet the standards of being chosen. He had mercy on whom He wished to have mercy. It was sad that Israel did not rise to the occasion and make use of the opportunity God gave her.

These are very serious issues, which if your church members who are in error when they do not understand, will lead to great loss on their part. The unprepared guest was not Jewish. But he made the same mistake as Israel. If the natural branches can be cut off...

Simon the Sorcerer was baptized, invited to the wedding feast, the feast of oversufficiency of righteousness. Too bad his baptism didn't save him.

The "grace we are talking about" is "GOD HIMSELF" (in the form of His uncreated energies), not a "thing" called "favor". God "has mercy on whom He has mercy"

This is very abstract and probably unsunstantiated. In plain terms it means that God gives certain people faith and faith leads to salvation. We often explain that the people who refused a free gift just weren't given the ability to believe. Actually, people don't believe because nothing in the real world operates like that.

The gospel isn't that God loved the world so much that he gave his only son so that whoever believed in him would not perish but have eternal life.

The gospel is that God loved the world so much that he gave his only son so that whoever believed in him, had his words remain in him, would not perish, but have eternal life. Faith is wrongly translated as belief. In the Ancient Near East, it was understood as being loyal.

We agree. In the ancient Church there is no understanding of faith existing separately from works of faith. Faith is either "Living and transformative" or it is demonic faith (mere belief), wherein even they (demons) believe -- and tremble.

 

[truefiction1]

So the people who have given millions to charity have the Holy Spirit running through them?

I'm not up to speed on what you two are discussing, but it's likely that the Holy Spirit is with every human person to some degree -- much more so in some than in others.

 

[truefiction1]

Romans 2:13-15 is a passage of Scripture that comes to mind when we consider whether or not the Holy Spirit may be with even non-believers, to some extent.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The "grace we are talking about" is "GOD HIMSELF" (in the form of His uncreated energies), not a "thing" called "favor". God "has mercy on whom He has mercy"

Try to substitute your meaning in the text which says:

You have been saved by grace through faith and it is a gift from God lest any should boast

I've gone into the Greek to explain that "it" qualifies "salvation", a "grace through faith" (favor through loyalty) salvation, in other threads.

We agree. In the ancient Church there is no understanding of faith existing separately from works of faith. Faith is either "Living and transformative" or it is demonic faith (mere belief), wherein even they (demons) believe -- and tremble.

Good. N T Wright loves the Orthodox Liturgy. It's better than a sermon, if you understand the symbolism.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Romans 2:13-15 is a passage of Scripture that comes to mind when we consider whether or not the Holy Spirit may be with even non-believers, to some extent.

Pretty unlikely:

Ephesians 2:11-16
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups intoone and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thusestablishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity...