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Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

royal priest

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You've misunderstood the Calvinist position regarding the sinner's position in Christ. All men are born as spiritualy dead in their iniquities, except Jesus of course. Then God spiritually resurrects the elect, enabling them to respond to the Gospel in a saving manner.
This enablement comes from the Spirit's activity upon the heart imparting the fruits of love, peace, gentleness, humilty, etc. When this saving work within the sinner is begun, God will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. It cannot be lost since Jesus will not lose any if those which the Father has given to him.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Johnny4ChristJesus,
[3) No, I don't see that sinners are bound to sin, ]

It is good we have some points that we see similarly...now lets focus a bit closer where we may differ.
What bondage was Jesus speaking of in jn8?

What do these verses speak of ,to your understanding??

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,
neither indeed can be.??? what does this mean?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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I appreciate the time you spent sharing your perception.

(1) I don't believe that God surrendered His sovereignty over earth to man. But, that you believe that, means you believe the Sovereign God has self-limited Himself (by delegating and not fixing what isn't done right). You told me that you didn't believe He self-limited? Extending Mercy and Grace would also be self-limiting choices God makes.

(2) There is nothing in Scripture that supports that ALL God's judgments are corrective in nature, either. Furthermore, God's judgments and judgment are different things in Scripture. He even talks differently about correction/discipline--which He does for all legitimate sons (Heb 12:5-11, Prov 3:11-12)--and judgment, which He ties in with His wrath and gives unbelievers.
(a) "But he that endures unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24:13) From what?
(b) "Except these days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matt 24:22) Saved from what, if all flesh are being saved?
(c) "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away, so shall also the coming of man be...." (Matt 24:39) Why did Jesus compare His future coming to the flood in Noah's day?
(d) Revelation 20:10-15 is the judgement that I believe Jesus is referring to people being saved from.

(3) Verses that talk about judgment being punishment: 2 Pet 2, Rev 20:10-15, for example.
(4) Paul offers one possible reason for God's judgment in Rom 9:21-24:
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

(5) I have spoken over and again about it being God's Sovereign choice to let a man make his own choice. If God hadn't sovereignly allowed us to make our own choices, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Within that context, God desires those willing to worship in spirit and truth (John 4) more than He desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) He would like for all to choose Him; but, it would defeat the purpose if He forced people. I do believe that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (But for those of us saved, we will declare Him both Lord and Savior).

We clearly don't agree. You are entitled to your opinions, including your belief that I am in error. God can show me if I am. He already has before and He can do it again.

(6) What happens if someone is blotted out of the Lamb's book of life or if Jesus denies you before the Father or if someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit or if someone takes the mark of the beast and worships the beast?

(7) So, do you think everyone will be saved after a significant period of punishment in an effort to burn a better choice out of those who chose wrong the many times they had the opportunity in this life? What corrective teaching does the lake of fire offer or is the concept that the fear now becomes real and they don't want to be sent back?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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I'm not a calvinist. I'm a believer in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the only begotten Son of God.

God enables ALL to respond to the Gospel in a saving manner. No one will be able to say they didn't have a legitimate chance to choose God. And, when God, who knows the hearts, knows one is genuinely making a choice for Him, He makes them born again. And, that changes everything.
 
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royal priest

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I'm not a calvinist.
I realize that. I was correcting your assumption of what I said here:
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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I realize that. I was correcting your assumption of what I said here:

And it was your quote that I was challenging. When satan challenged Jesus, he used Scripture, too. He just twisted its purpose.

I certainly agree with what Jesus said in John 15. So, together, let's believe it all.

v1: Jesus is the true Vine and His Father is the Vine Dresser.
v2: Every branch in Jesus that does not produce fruit, the Vine Dresser takes away. And, every branch in Jesus that does produce fruit, the Vine Dresser prunes, so it will bring forth more fruit.
v4: We are to abide in Jesus, and Jesus in us. As a branch cannot produce fruit of itself without abiding/remaining in [attached to] the vine, neither can we, unless we abide/remain in Him.
v5: Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches. If we abide in Him, and He in us, we will bring forth much fruit: for without Him we can do nothing.
v6: If a man abides not in Jesus, that man is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
v7: If we abide in Him, and His Words abide in us, we shall ask what we will, and it shall be done unto us.
v8: Herein is His Father glorified, that we bear much fruit; so shall we be His disciples.
v9: As the Father loved Jesus, so Jesus has loved us; [He instructs us to] abide/remain in His love.
v10: If we keep His commandments, we will abide in His love; even as He has kept His Father's commandments and remained in His love.

So, if we believe it all, it is possible to have once been a branch that doesn't remain/abide in the Vine. To be one that doesn't abide clearly suggests that we were, at one point, genuinely, attached to the vine. How can one be withered, cut off, and burned, if one was never attached in the first place?

Jesus, Himself, very clearly says this is in our control: "If we keep His commandments, we will abide in His love; even as He kept His Father's commandments and abided in His love."

God certainly makes the difference. But, when God does what man cannot: "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13); and gives to us a new heart, a new nature, and the mind of Christ, how dare us say we are still worthless sinners who are no better than unbelievers? Paul says the opposite. He says we are temples of the living God (1 Cor 3:16, 2 Cor 6:14-16). Peter and Revelation report that we are kings and priests to our God (Rev 1:6, Rev 5:10, 1 Pet 2:5,9). When you think of yourself as a sinner who can't help himself but sin, after God has paid the price for you and told you "be perfect as I am perfect" and given you His Holy Spirit--so that you can (1) know you are His AND (2) walk in the spirit, not after the flesh--how do you think He receives that? If the devil is behind your fleshly desires, who is getting exalted still, if you are still, after regeneration, no better than the unbeliever? When people take the mindset you shared, it is no wonder why people lament that today's church looks no different than the world! But, in your opinion, did the church of Acts really look no different than the world? The church of Acts looked very different than what we see today and they looked very different than the rest of the world back then.
 
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royal priest

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The branch that whithers was never truly ingrafted to begin with. It's profession of faith was a mere pretense.
To say that I am not better than an unbeliever is an admission of what I am in and of my own self. The godly life is the result of God's work within the dead sinner, having made him alive in Jesus Christ.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I agree with what you said except there is one small mistake you said when God knows one is genuine. He has always known friend.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Take into account who Jesus was talking to at the time. He was talking only to His 11 faithful apostles excluding Judas. He is speaking to them and about them. This is a warning to them. Notice how many times to them the word “you”. This is an indication that this message applies to them as well as all true believers. Anyone who is not a true believer is not grafted into the vine in the first place. That’s why Jesus says abide (Greek word ménō) meaning remain or stay. A person cannot remain or stay in Him if they are not currently in Him. This message teaches us two things. A true believer can fall from grace and doing good works is necessary to having a saving faith. I’m sure someone will say that is salvation by works but it isn’t. It is salvation by faith. Consider James 2:14-26. James mentions two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. Notice verse 14.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭

Again in verse 19 & 20

“Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20‬

James is not explaining that works result in salvation. He is explaining that faith will produce works and works are proof of our faith. An absence of works is proof of an absence of faith.

Also consider Matthew 24:31-46 the parable of the sheep & goats.

According to what Jesus said what is the definition characteristic that separates the sheep from the goats?

““Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-43‬

I highlighted the word “for” Greek word
gár. The definition is a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification. Simply translated meaning because. The goats were not condemned because they didn’t do good works. They were condemned because they didn’t have faith. If they had faith they would’ve been compelled by the Holy Spirit to do good works.

Look at John 10:27-28. Jesus explains the characteristics of His sheep.

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬

The word follow is present tense. His sheep must continue to follow to remain His sheep. Now that is not to say that a person can’t fall away and not be saved. Of course if someone repents and turns back to God they can be grafted back into the vine and once again be His sheep. I could quote more scriptures but I think that should be sufficient. I don’t like to make my posts too long.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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The branch that whithers was never truly ingrafted to begin with. It's profession of faith was a mere pretense.

I understand that you have to believe that, given your theological tradition. Just understand, also, that isn't what Jesus said, as shared verse-by-verse in the previous post #507. He said nothing about the branch that becomes withered never really being connected to the vine. He said that branch didn't remain connected. He even explained how one continues to abide (remains connected) in Him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Take into account who Jesus was talking to at the time. He was talking only to His 11 faithful apostles excluding Judas. He is speaking to them and about them. This is a warning to them. Notice how many times to them the word “you”. This is an indication that this message applies to them as well as all true believers. Anyone who is not a true believer is not grafted into the vine in the first place. That’s why Jesus says abide (Greek word ménō) meaning remain or stay. A person cannot remain or stay in Him if they are not currently in Him. This message teaches us two things. A true believer can fall from grace and doing good works is necessary to having a saving faith. I’m sure someone will say that is salvation by works but it isn’t. It is salvation by faith. Consider James 2:14-26. James mentions two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. Notice verse 14.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭

Again in verse 19 & 20

“Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20‬

James is not explaining that works result in salvation. He is explaining that faith will produce works and works are proof of our faith. An absence of works is proof of an absence of faith.

Also consider Matthew 24:31-46 the parable of the sheep & goats.

According to what Jesus said what is the definition characteristic that separates the sheep from the goats?

““Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-43‬

I highlighted the word “for” Greek word
gár. The definition is a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification. Simply translated meaning because. The goats were not condemned because they didn’t do good works. They were condemned because they didn’t have faith. If they had faith they would’ve been compelled by the Holy Spirit to do good works.

Look at John 10:27-28. Jesus explains the characteristics of His sheep.

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬

The word follow is present tense. His sheep must continue to follow to remain His sheep. Now that is not to say that a person can’t fall away and not be saved. Of course if someone repents and turns back to God they can be grafted back into the vine and once again be His sheep.

Some great points there brother. He who seeks shall find and to He who knocks the door will be opened. So many are seeking and knocking yet so few are Calvinists. How can we be the ones who are victorious if we never had any choice in the matter? How could Jonah get on a boat headed away from Nineveh if he didn’t have a choice? Why spread the gospel to the world if those who are not chosen by God cannot be saved? How could God love the world and send His Son so that the world could be saved if He only chose a select group to be saved and chose the rest to burn in the lake of fire? Calvinism just doesn’t add up.
 
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Pneuma3

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Who says God is not fixing the problem? Scripture tells us Gods will is not being done on earth as it is in Heaven, and the kingdoms of this world are not yet the kingdoms of Christ. Thus Gods will is NOT yet being done in the earth, but we know it will be because Gods will, will be done on earth as it is in Heaven and we know this because God is sovereign, cannot miss His mark, is steadfast and faithful to do all He set out to do. Thus the salvation of the world is assured.


Sure there is Johnny.
Is.26:9

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Note, that it says judgments, plurals. So which judgment of God do you believe will not teach the inhabitants of the world righteousness?

We are saved from the wrath of God, the ministration of DEATH, the power of the LAW.

 
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Pneuma3

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(3) Verses that talk about judgment being punishment: 2 Pet 2, Rev 20:10-15, for example.
(4) Paul offers one possible reason for God's judgment in Rom 9:21-24:



OUT of the same lump is the vessels fitted to destruction and the vessels of honour.
Our old man is the vessel fitted to destruction and our inner or new man is the vessel of honour.

Those verses are not talking about the destruction of man, but the destruction of the man that we were.


We agree much on the free will aspect Johnny so I think we can move past that part for the time being.

Yes we will worship Him in spirit and in truth, you see that as only applying to some, I see it as applying to all each in their own order for as the scriptures saith Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN.

The difference is you believe every knee shall bow and tongue confess, some by compulsion and others unto the Glory of God the Father. As I already addressed this showing that every knee bowing is done in religious veneration and the confession is done in praise and honour I will leave it at that. Hopefully you will take the time to consider it.

LOOK unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved.

(6) What happens if someone is blotted out of the Lamb's book of life or if Jesus denies you before the Father or if someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit or if someone takes the mark of the beast and worships the beast?

Can someones who is not saved be said to be in the lambs book of life?
This is all dealing with Christians and has nothing to do with the unbeliever or those who no not Christ.

Read Romans 11 as Paul explains the casting off of God and the reconciliation.


According to scripture the Judgment of the world is via the cross.
When the cross is at work in us we (that is our old man) screams out in torment as he is being destroyed.

I laid this out in greater detail here, but from the lack of response not many or possible none see it the way I do.

the great white throne
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think we agree on a lot, based on what you wrote here. I'm still re-considering a few issues like whether one can willfully walk away and return, in light of what is said in Hebrews 6 and 10.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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If God's will is going to be done on earth as we know it, why does Scripture say that the old heaven and old earth are burned up (2 Pet 3:10-13, Rev 21:1)?

God is Sovereign and cannot miss the mark. He defines the mark. Desires are not "the mark/standard," they are desires. When faced with competing desires, choices are made. As demonstrated in Scripture, God cares more about having people who will choose to worship Him in spirit and truth than He does about saving everyone from His wrath, even though both are His desires. You can't truly have free will if none can choose against. If you don't have free will, you can't worship in spirit and truth. You can only worship automatically without thinking or deciding, because it is programmed in.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think we agree on a lot, based on what you wrote here. I'm still re-considering a few issues like whether one can willfully walk away and return, in light of what is said in Hebrews 6 and 10.

In regards to Hebrews 6:4 personally I believe the author is saying that it is impossible for us as believers to bring someone who has been enlightened and partaken of the Holy Spirit back into repentance because there is no more evidence we can produce that the Holy Spirit has not already shown that person that would make them reconsider. I should say I believe this is only a possible meaning. I’m not saying this is what it says but I do see other scriptures that say if we confess He is faithful to forgive. I believe a person can always come back into repentance if they want to. I think the parable of the lost sheep is one example and also the prodigal son.
 
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BNR32FAN

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God desires our love and fellowship. Love is a gift given freely. Without free will our devotion to Him would not be true love because it is not by our choice that we give it. You can’t program your computer to love you. It will only execute the programming that has been installed having no choice in the matter.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I’d like to compose a small list of many things that refute Calvinism.

God loves the world not only a select group. John 3:16

Double predestination contradicts God’s love and makes God responsible for all who will burn in the lake of fire and makes God responsible for all sin.

God sent Jesus so the world could be saved not a select group. John 3:17

God wants everyone to repent and be saved 2 Peter 3:9 1 Timothy 2:3-4

God’s chosen still have free will to rebel against God. Jonah, The Israelites, Peter’s denial, Thomas’ doubt, and pretty much every man who ever lived. Jesus excluded of course.

The Bible says several times that those who remain faithful and endure to the end have overcome and are victorious. We cannot be victorious or overcome anything if we have no choice. Revelation 3:21 Revelation 21:7 Revelation 2:7-11

John 15:1-10 refutes eternal security. Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles (Judas excluded) to remain in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from Him and thrown into the fire.

Jesus says many will turn away from Him. Matthew 24:10

These are just a few of many examples.
 
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Pneuma3

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Johnny did God send Jesus to save the WORLD?

If you believe God sent Jesus to save the WORLD and God does not save the WORLD then God missed His mark therefore God sinned.

The only way you can get past that is if you believe God did not send Jesus to save the WORLD, but that brings up a whole different argument. Does WORLD mean WORLD or just some.
 
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