"Saved" and Baptism in vein?

[JoshTraceur]

Hello all! My name is Josh and I'm 17 years old! This is my first time posting on these forums and I just want to say it's nice to meet all of you and although I am Agnostic I still respect your belief.

I have always had a rough childhood. I have been abused physically and mentally. I have grown up in a bad home where fighting was always routine between my "parents." Now, I was kicked out of my house and live with my friend! I don't know where life is going to take me now.

I never went to church before until around September in '09. I went off and on with some buddies who really wanted me to convert! They were really kind with it and didn't bother to pressure me at all! They're still my friends to this day.

On April 4th, 2010 I felt a huge sense of pressure on me and was "saved" in front of the whole church. I knew what had happened, and I was experiencing some kind of anxiety attack. I feel bad about leading them on like that. Soon after I was baptized when I knew I didn't really need to be. I lead the "Christian" style for a while, but it soon collapsed when I realized I never really knew God. I really wish I could find out if God was real and if he loved me, but I just don't think he loves me, nor am I completely sure if he exists.

Anyway, I post on some other Christian forums every now and then but nobody has ever directly answered my question on this: Was my baptism and being "saved" in vein? If I ever am able to find God and find out he cares for me, would I have to get baptized again? Thanks and have a great day everyone!

 

[razeontherock]

Welcome to CF! By your own words, your Baptism did nothing. More importantly, by your own words your Salvation experience wasn't heartfelt, real, nor did it accomplish anything.

When I was 16 I asked Jesus into my heart as Lord and Savior, and immediately the whole area where I was got light. (This is unusual) That was in 1981 and I obviously knew He is very real, but it took me Decades to learn that God loves me. So knowing He is real is separate and distinct from knowing He loves you. I am still growing in my capacity to experience and be aware of God's love, and that has improved quite a bit just recently!

So my point here is for you to realize that the things you seek can take time. That's not popular. Also, a very big part of God's reality in the life of a believer is our own actions, and Baptism is a "vision" of our part in the whole thing. Once you truly experience Christ's life-changing presence in your life and understand what Baptism is all about, then it makes sense. But it is never essential for Salvation; we're not saved by what we do.

OTOH, how do you know your experience on 4/4/10 wasn't accepted by God?

 

[JoshTraceur]

Welcome to CF! By your own words, your Baptism did nothing. More importantly, by your own words your Salvation experience wasn't heartfelt, real, nor did it accomplish anything.

Hi, Raze! Very nice to meet you and thanks for the welcome! I don't think it meant anything either, but I'm not sure!

When I was 16 I asked Jesus into my heart as Lord and Savior, and immediately the whole area where I was got light. (This is unusual) That was in 1981 and I obviously knew He is very real, but it took me Decades to learn that God loves me. So knowing He is real is separate and distinct from knowing He loves you. I am still growing in my capacity to experience and be aware of God's love, and that has improved quite a bit just recently!

That's an interesting story! I have heard some things about this when people told me I was needing to "grow" as a Christian.

So my point here is for you to realize that the things you seek can take time. That's not popular. Also, a very big part of God's reality in the life of a believer is our own actions, and Baptism is a "vision" of our part in the whole thing. Once you truly experience Christ's life-changing presence in your life and understand what Baptism is all about, then it makes sense. But it is never essential for Salvation; we're not saved by what we do.

I think I understand what Baptism and salvation is about, though! Maybe not the personal feeling though

OTOH, how do you know your experience on 4/4/10 wasn't accepted by God?

I was very confused on this at first. On that night my buddies really did something special for me. They bought me this type of Christian bracelet even though I am not Christian, and it meant a whole lot to me! I constantly felt the need to make it up to them! I always felt very odd being in church and not being Christian. I loved going though and seeing what other people believed and why! I also really enjoyed the people there ! On that Easter night I felt the preacher putting a lot of pressure "on that one person who needs to find salvation." In the end, I'm not sure if it was an actual anxiety attack or not, but I knew my heart wasn't all in it.

I really would LOVE to believe in God! To feel a relationship with someone like that would just be... too amazing for me! I just am not sure if he's out there and if he is, he doesn't care about me.

 

[aiki]

Anyway, I post on some other Christian forums every now and then but nobody has ever directly answered my question on this: Was my baptism and being "saved" in vein?

Yup. If you just went through the motions of conversion out of sense of pressure from those around you, I would say that you weren't truly saved. It must have been some pretty serious pressure to provoke you to be baptized as well!

There are those here who will tell you that even an unintended, ignorant, faithless "conversion" counts with God, but there's nothing to base that on except their opinion. Don't believe it. You are still in desperate need of a Saviour.

If I ever am able to find God and find out he cares for me, would I have to get baptized again? Thanks and have a great day everyone!

Well, the first time you were baptized it was completely fake, wasn't it? I mean, you hadn't had a true conversion by your own admission, so the point of being baptized was completely lost.

The Bible says that God cared enough for you to become flesh and die for you on a cross. Is there something more He could do to show you He loves you? What's more loving than dying for you?

May God reveal Himself to you.

Selah.

 

[JoshTraceur]

Yup. If you just went through the motions of conversion out of sense of pressure from those around you, I would say that you weren't truly saved. It must have been some pretty serious pressure to provoke you to be baptized as well!

There are those here who will tell you that even an unintended, ignorant, faithless "conversion" counts with God, but there's nothing to base that on except their opinion. Don't believe it. You are still in desperate need of a Saviour.

It certainly was some serious pressure. After you go to church for a long time being Agnostic and everyone wanting you to convert, then you actually buckle underneath pressure IN FRONT OF ALL OF THEM... it's like a no-turning back point. I'm also a very nervous guy and I know I shouldn't have went through with the baptism! Bad idea, I know ! Okay so I see that I still need a savior... interesting.

Well, the first time you were baptized it was completely fake, wasn't it? I mean, you hadn't had a true conversion by your own admission, so the point of being baptized was completely lost.

The Bible says that God cared enough for you to become flesh and die for you on a cross. Is there something more He could do to show you He loves you? What's more loving than dying for you?

May God reveal Himself to you.

Selah.

You see, I don't know too much about the Bible, but I believe it says something like "One Baptism, one way." Not "One Baptism FOR REAL, one way". That is why I still feel a bit stuck. Do you know how hard it would be to fess up to my pastor about this? It would be way too embarrassing.

I see what you mean about God showing his love for me. But honestly, I am not sure if I have ever felt him, or maybe I am too blind. Some people would say the devil has his grasps on me, but I'm not sure how much I believe that either. I find myself to be a good person, I really do, I just can't seem to accept Christianity although deep down inside I really want to

 

[salida]

NO, this wasn't in vein. Its a new beginning for you.

Get some inspirational friends that love God by their actions, read the bible and pray daily. Its a life long lifestyle and you will know God more and more. Feel free to email me.

Christian concept: www.livingwaters.com/good/
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com. And you can read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel a former athiest. Christiananswers.net, www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/

 

[razeontherock]

I agree w/ Salida that God is definitely working in your life! I won't pretend to know exactly what He has wrought so far, but I can tell you the important thing is co-operating with Him. Even when we have unanswered questions. A couple things that stick out to me:

Some people would say the devil has his grasps on me, but I'm not sure how much I believe that either. I find myself to be a good person

THIS. This is the "biggie." This will stop God dead in His tracks, preventing Him from accomplishing His will. If that's not what you want, the only choice seems to be to agree with Him that "there is no one that is good, we alike have all gone astray." And "we all fall short of the glory of God."

True humility before God is not being aware of our worst faults and saying "ok, I guess I could improve." That results in false humility, and will never bring about the real experience you want. You still made a beginning, you just need to take the next step and bring yourself to TRUE humility before God. Have your very best in mind, and compare yourself to God.

THAT is humility. Doing this on a starry night helps. So does being way out in the ocean. Consider His vastness, recognizing when we say 'God' we're simply referring to the power that put the Universe there. Science has nothing to say it doesn't exist; scientists very much know it took power to put it all there.

Just as obvious is the fact that our own goodness is dwarfed by God's. That's a humbling realization! Wanna know a really good thing to pray for? That you come upon this realization w/o having to lose everything the way I did. I truly got so low the only way to look was up. It wasn't pretty.

Okay so I see that I still need a savior... interesting.

That would go with the above. You do really need to recognize your own need for a Savior, before 'accepting Christ' becomes meaningful.

everyone wanting you to convert, then you actually buckle underneath pressure IN FRONT OF ALL OF THEM... it's like a no-turning back point.

Do you know how hard it would be to fess up to my Pastor about this? It would be way too embarrassing.

This is REALLY important! "If you deny Me before men, I also will deny you before my Father." OTOH, if you goto your Pastor saying "look, I want to have a real relationship with God, but this thing just doesn't seem to be in gear yet;" putting that in your own words and being real with him - - -

how could you possibly get anything other than a positive response? You could wind up being the most "on fire" kid there! And don't worry about the other kids, they're not your Judge. Seeking a closer walk is what the Christian life is largely about, until He puts us in a specific form of service.

If you understood Salvation and Baptism when you were Baptized, it really just becomes a question of living it. Be aware that what you describe is very typical of being under attack by the enemy, which normally happens when you take a step closer to God. You very much did that! What you were calling an 'anxiety attack' may also have been the presence of God, convicting you of your sins, showing you your need for a Savior. And all you experienced was the anxiety attack.

Now go back and get the rest; Christ in you, your only hope of (any real kind of) Glory.

I see what you mean about God showing his love for me. But honestly, I am not sure if I have ever felt him, or maybe I am too blind.

Salvation isn't a feeling, and it's not about a feeling. Asking God to open your eyes to who HE is is a very powerful prayer! God loves to do that.

Next, do you really see Jesus dying as God showing His Love for you? That's a toughie for me; the idea comes from a culture that's foreign to me. Where I saw God's Love most clearly is in His word. You should know you're not going to get what you're looking for w/o reading the Bible as much as possible. When you come across something you think would be helpful, pray for that. Things like God opening your eyes; Spiritual things.

When you read God saying he will do certain things, stick your name in there and read it again. I suggest starting in the Gospel of John because it starts "in the beginning," and reading straight through the New Testament. Once you get past Acts, you'll come across many things you can both pray for and stick your name in and it'll be appropriate.

 

[aiki]

You see, I don't know too much about the Bible, but I believe it says something like "One Baptism, one way." Not "One Baptism FOR REAL, one way".

I'm not really sure what you mean here...

That is why I still feel a bit stuck. Do you know how hard it would be to fess up to my pastor about this? It would be way too embarrassing.

Yeah, its easier just to go on deceiving him...

I see what you mean about God showing his love for me. But honestly, I am not sure if I have ever felt him, or maybe I am too blind.

Felt God? Hmmm...I'm not sure what you mean...Do you need to "feel" the President of the United States in order to believe he exists?

Some people would say the devil has his grasps on me, but I'm not sure how much I believe that either.

He has his hooks into most everyone in one way or another. Its his "thing." But it'd be rather a problem for him if everyone knew he did, though, wouldn't it? Deceiving folks is also his "thing." You're a whole lot easier to manipulate and tempt when you don't believe he even exists.

I find myself to be a good person, I really do, I just can't seem to accept Christianity although deep down inside I really want to

You're good? Really? Ever told a lie? Ever done anything selfish, or lazy, or careless? Ever used the Lord's name in vain? Ever lusted after something? Ever hated someone? If you have, just what, then, do you mean by "good"? Do good people hate, lie, covet, etc.? Are you good compared to Mother Theresa? How about Jesus Christ? Are you as good as he was? Or is your standard of comparison on the lower end of the scale? You know, axe murderers, rapists, Hitler? Are these the guys you compare yourself to in order to convince yourself that you're good? When you say "I'm good," do you really mean "Not as bad as those really rotten people"?

The real question is: Are you as good as God? He's the true standard of what is good and what isn't. Against this standard of comparison, even Mother Theresa looks pretty shabby.

Selah.

 

[JoshTraceur]

I'm not really sure what you mean here...

Hehe sorry I just had woken up when I replied to this. What I was imlpying was that I read the bible says "One Baptism. One way." You have said that I would have to re-do my salvation since it's not sincere, correct? Wouldn't that be going against God's word to be doing it again? I don't mean to sound rude but you are saying one thing while other Christians are saying the other.

Yeah, its easier just to go on deceiving him...

This really made me feel like crap. ! This pastor does everything for me and I treat him like this? I treat THE CHURCH like this? I'm such a bad person, it has become apparent to me now.

Felt God? Hmmm...I'm not sure what you mean...Do you need to "feel" the President of the United States in order to believe he exists?

Most Christians explain that they feel God everyday! They see his glory when they step outside to see nature, they feel him when they are praying, ect. I feel no connection, no relationship. I don't have to feel the President to see him on my T.V. though. You know what I mean?

He has his hooks into most everyone in one way or another. Its his "thing." But it'd be rather a problem for him if everyone knew he did, though, wouldn't it? Deceiving folks is also his "thing." You're a whole lot easier to manipulate and tempt when you don't even believe he even exists.

This makes a lot of sense. Nobody has really ever explained it like this to me before. So you say I'm being deceived, eh? Being easier to manipulate is understandable as well I suppose.

You're good? Really? Ever told a lie? Ever done anything selfish, or lazy, or careless? Ever used the Lord's name in vain? Ever lusted after something? Ever hated someone? If you have, just what, then, do you mean by "good"? Do good people hate, lie, covet, etc.? Are you good compared to Mother Theresa? How about Jesus Christ? Are you as good as he was? Or is your standard of comparison on the lower end of the scale? You know, axe murderers, rapists, Hitler? Are these the guys you compare yourself to in order to convince yourself that you're good? When you say "I'm good," do you really mean "Not as bad as those really rotten people"?

The real question is: Are you as good as God? He's the true standard of what is good and what isn't. Against this standard of comparison, even Mother Theresa looks pretty shabby.

Selah.

Another good point, indeed. I guess when I say I am "good" is when I compare myself to most of my peers and people like Stalin, Hitler, ect. I try to do the right things, but of course I screw up every now and then. I guess most Christians would say I'm the devil or a huge sinner or something!
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On a closing note on this post I want to say thanks to everyone who is taking the time to reply. I do like the attitude you hold Aiki. It's just a really blunt and honest attitude that I enjoy, even if it is on online forums. Thanks!

I do also want to say that today I did attend church and then go watch a movie with a couple of my buddies. Everything went very smoothly and I feel this surprising sense of joy I just cannot shake. I'm not happy like this often, I'm really not... and it feels good! Who knows, it might just be the work of your God

 

[razeontherock]

I would have to re-do my salvation since it's not sincere, correct? I treat him like this? I treat THE CHURCH like this?

Good can come out of all this. I addressed it pretty squarely, above. You made a start, none of our starts were perfect - hang in there! One of the things we'll all tell you, while it's nice to have a "mountain top experience" of God, feeling His joy, etc., it's in the valley where we really grow. i.e., when things aren't easy. Your own description since your Baptism fits this to a T. Ya just gotta dig down and plant some roots ...

 

[aiki]

Hehe sorry I just had woken up when I replied to this.

Ah. I see. I'm a little incoherent when I've just awakened, too.

What I was imlpying was that I read the bible says "One Baptism. One way." You have said that I would have to re-do my salvation since it's not sincere, correct?

Yup.

Wouldn't that be going against God's word to be doing it again? I don't mean to sound rude but you are saying one thing while other Christians are saying the other.

No, I don't think so. The Bible says that God "looks upon the heart" and is not deceived by outward appearances (1 Sam. 16:7). As a result, the Pharisees, who were the religious elite among the Jews in Jesus' time, were condemned by Jesus as "hypocrites" and "whited sepulchres full of dead men's bones" and "vipers." In spite of their careful adherence to pious living, as far as Christ was concerned, the Pharisees were evil men standing under God's wrath. Jesus warned of the terrible end of those who claimed allegiance to, and faith in, God with their mouths but whose heart was far from him:

Matthew 15:7-9
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me...

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

This really made me feel like crap. !

Doing what's wrong has this effect - on me, as well as you. I have felt just as you do many times. Thank God He is so willing to forgive me (and you, also)!

This pastor does everything for me and I treat him like this? I treat THE CHURCH like this? I'm such a bad person, it has become apparent to me now.

Well, now you're agreeing with God:

Romans 3:10
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one."

As strange as this may sound, it is a good thing that you're beginning to see yourself as God sees you: A sinner in need of a Saviour.

Most Christians explain that they feel God everyday! They see his glory when they step outside to see nature,

You don't see the glory of God in His creation?

they feel him when they are praying, ect. I feel no connection, no relationship.

Hmmm...Okay, I think I get what you mean. Let me ask you: Do you feel a "connection" with every stranger you pass on the street? I'm guessing not. So, why do expect to have a "connection" with God who is also basically a stranger to you? Does it seem reasonable to expect to have this "connection," this relationship, with God before you even believe He exists?

Christians speak of an intimate fellowship with God that comes by way of faith in what His Son, Jesus, has done for them on the cross. In the Bible it says:

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
20 ...we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus took upon himself the guilt and wages of your sin, which is death, and shed his blood and died on a cross to reconcile you to God. When you repent of your sin and trust in your heart that Jesus truly accomplished this for you, then it is that you enter into relationship with God, then it is that you will feel the "connection" of which you hear Christians speak.

Acts 3:19
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

So you say I'm being deceived, eh?

This is what the Word of God says:

John 8:44
44 You (the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking) are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Luke 8:11-12
11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Ephesians 6:11-13
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

I try to do the right things, but of course I screw up every now and then. I guess most Christians would say I'm the devil or a huge sinner or something!

No, all Christians are sinners saved by God's grace. This is how the apostle Paul describes all of us before being saved:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--

Taking God's view of us is one of the hardest parts of entering into God's salvation. The apostle John explains:

John 3:19-20
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Anyone who has truly entered into God's kingdom did so on their knees, humbled by the truth of their own desperate sin and utter failure to deserve God's love and grace. But that shame and sorrow over sin must give way ultimately to joy and love for God who has stooped so low and given so much to redeem us from our own wickedness.

I do like the attitude you hold Aiki. It's just a really blunt and honest attitude that I enjoy, even if it is on online forums. Thanks!

Um, you're welcome! I'm not really keen on beating about the bush. Mind you, I don't mean to be rude. I hope you'll forgive me if that is way I've come across.

I'll keep praying for you!

Selah.

 

[JoshTraceur]

Good can come out of all this. I addressed it pretty squarely, above. You made a start, none of our starts were perfect - hang in there! One of the things we'll all tell you, while it's nice to have a "mountain top experience" of God, feeling His joy, etc., it's in the valley where we really grow. i.e., when things aren't easy. Your own description since your Baptism fits this to a T. Ya just gotta dig down and plant some roots ...

It's funny, I have heard this from many people before! Hmm
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You don't see the glory of God in His creation?

I want to, but there are so many theories out there like the Big Bang Theory that seem to make more sense to me personally than God creating the world. Even a lot of Theists believe in evolution and an old Earth yet still hold the principles of the Bible close to their heart. I think they don't see it as literal as some Christians do. So I just want the truth to be honest, and that's something I'm trying to find on my own. Although, I do train something called Parkour if you have ever heard of it, and when I am outside moving through my environment it makes me feel almost very religious!

 

[aiki]

I want to, but there are so many theories out there like the Big Bang Theory that seem to make more sense to me personally than God creating the world.

Well, here's the thing: The Big Bang Theory actually strongly implies a Creator. This simple syllogism explains:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The Big Bang Theory indicates that at some point in the past the universe came into existence. It hasn't always existed; something caused it to come into being. After all, nothing cannot give rise to something, can it? So, what is it that caused the universe? Well, it seems that in order for something to cause the universe it would have to be outside time and space, personal, omnipotent, and unchanging. Does this sound familiar? It should, for this is exactly how God is characterized in the Bible. You see, then, that what science tells us about the beginning of the universe is not at odds with what Scripture tells us about God. In fact, they agree quite well! A Big Bang needs a Big Banger!

Even a lot of Theists believe in evolution and an old Earth yet still hold the principles of the Bible close to their heart. I think they don't see it as literal as some Christians do.

Maybe. Maybe not.

So I just want the truth to be honest, and that's something I'm trying to find on my own.

And what if the truth leads you to God? Are you genuinely willing to embrace such a truth? If not, then you aren't really looking for the truth.

Although, I do train something called Parkour if you have ever heard of it, and when I am outside moving through my environment it makes me feel almost very religious!

Parkour? Yes, I've heard of it. Definitely a young person's activity. All that jumping and tumbling and climbing is beyond the capacity of my aging limbs. I beat myself up pretty good when I was younger and now all that punishment is coming back to haunt me. I hope you won't make the same mistake. Those long jumps from rooftop to rooftop I see Parkour people doing don't look like something your knees will forget. At the same time, your only young once so you might as well enjoy the strength and energy of youth. I guess you must simply find a balance.

Sometimes when I'm really moving well in Aikido the feeling I get is quite wonderful. Everything is easy, graceful, and powerful. It doesn't feel like this often, but when it does, woohoo!

Selah.

 

[JoshTraceur]

Well, here's the thing: The Big Bang Theory actually strongly implies a Creator. This simple syllogism explains:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The Big Bang Theory indicates that at some point in the past the universe came into existence. It hasn't always existed; something caused it to come into being. After all, nothing cannot give rise to something, can it? So, what is it that caused the universe? Well, it seems that in order for something to cause the universe it would have to be outside time and space, personal, omnipotent, and unchanging. Does this sound familiar? It should, for this is exactly how God is characterized in the Bible. You see, then, that what science tells us about the beginning of the universe is not at odds with what Scripture tells us about God. In fact, they agree quite well! A Big Bang needs a Big Banger!

That's pretty interesting actually! I see how it leads to the argument of "Who created God then?" But I have heard that one way too many times and I agree that God is internal ect, ect, ect

And what if the truth leads you to God? Are you genuinely willing to embrace such a truth? If not, then you aren't really looking for the truth.

If this truth leads me to God you have no idea how excited I'm going to be to hop on that idea! A loving, all powerful God that is waiting for me in an awesome place known as "heaven?" That sounds like everything is perfect to me! If the truth does lead me to find out God is not real or if he's not a personal God, then I am going to be very disappointing. However, I find it impossible to prove or disprove that a God exists--therefore I'm being Agnostic. I am set on the idea that a God is real though, for a couple of reasons but the most fascinating is our DNA structure. That just could not happen by chance.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Care to elaborate more on this?

Parkour? Yes, I've heard of it. Definitely a young person's activity. All that jumping and tumbling and climbing is beyond the capacity of my aging limbs. I beat myself up pretty good when I was younger and now all that punishment is coming back to haunt me. I hope you won't make the same mistake. Those long jumps from rooftop to rooftop I see Parkour people doing don't look like something your knees will forget. At the same time, your only young once so you might as well enjoy the strength and energy of youth. I guess you must simply find a balance.

I do want to say something about this although it is off-topic. The most common misconception of Parkour is that it's a dangerous "sport" full of reckless teenagers jumping off rooftops, flipping, and injuring themselves. Although this may happen, that is not Parkour, that is being reckless. There are members of AmericanParkour.com that are 65 years old and still doing Parkour. It's a journey on it's own! You break limits and fears but not until you're ready! It's actually discouraged to take high drops and especially to get on rooftops! I find when I do Parkour I find the closest connection with the world/God than I ever can digging into a book or going to church. I could be wrong on this but who knows! But ya I don't hurt myself because I take it easy and don't do anything reckless

Sometimes when I'm really moving well in Aikido the feeling I get is quite wonderful. Everything is easy, graceful, and powerful. It doesn't feel like this often, but when it does, woohoo!

AWESOME! I was planning on taking martial arts sometime!

 

[JoshTraceur]

I replied to this thread and then for some reason a huge blue strip came across it that said "Moderated" and then my post vanished. Here I go again!
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Well, here's the thing: The Big Bang Theory actually strongly implies a Creator. This simple syllogism explains:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The Big Bang Theory indicates that at some point in the past the universe came into existence. It hasn't always existed; something caused it to come into being. After all, nothing cannot give rise to something, can it? So, what is it that caused the universe? Well, it seems that in order for something to cause the universe it would have to be outside time and space, personal, omnipotent, and unchanging. Does this sound familiar? It should, for this is exactly how God is characterized in the Bible. You see, then, that what science tells us about the beginning of the universe is not at odds with what Scripture tells us about God. In fact, they agree quite well! A Big Bang needs a Big Banger!

This is pretty interesting! I'm not entirely sure if I have ever heard it put that way before or not! I have heard the argument "Then who created God" though and I am actually siding with the belief of Christianity on that one. I do believe in a higher power actually, it's just getting more specific of who or what that is is the problem for me I would like to think!

Maybe. Maybe not.

Care to elaborate more on this?

And what if the truth leads you to God? Are you genuinely willing to embrace such a truth? If not, then you aren't really looking for the truth.

You have no idea how much I would be jumping for joy if I truly found out God was the truth! To know that a all-knowing and all-loving God is watching over me and caring for me would be truly amazing. If I find out that God is not real, then I will be pretty dissapointed, but I have to keep going. This is a reason why I'm Agnostic though, I feel like it's impossible to prove or disprove God existing! I think it takes equal faith on BOTH sides (Atheist and Christian)!

Parkour? Yes, I've heard of it. Definitely a young person's activity. All that jumping and tumbling and climbing is beyond the capacity of my aging limbs. I beat myself up pretty good when I was younger and now all that punishment is coming back to haunt me. I hope you won't make the same mistake. Those long jumps from rooftop to rooftop I see Parkour people doing don't look like something your knees will forget. At the same time, your only young once so you might as well enjoy the strength and energy of youth. I guess you must simply find a balance.

Hate to say it Aiki, but you're wrong on this one! Parkour is for all ages! Heck, even people at the age of 65 are still doing it. It's meant to be a journey of self-discovery and self-appreciation, quite like religion is to some people! It's actually discouraged to take big drops or jump off of rooftops, because it's doing nothing but injuring yourself! Parkour is a safe art that everyone can learn, no matter what disability or mindset they are in. There is even a one-armed traceur (male practitioner of Parkour) and a very good one at that! A bit off-topic I know but just thought I would clear up a common mis-conception most people seem to get when thinking of Parkour!

 

[aiki]

This is pretty interesting! I'm not entirely sure if I have ever heard it put that way before or not! I have heard the argument "Then who created God" though and I am actually siding with the belief of Christianity on that one.

By definition, God is uncaused. If God has a cause, then whatever caused Him is actually God. But God cannot be caused and still be God, just like a cloud cannot be a rock and still be a cloud. By definition, a cloud cannot be a rock. So, when one starts asking, "Who made God?" one is not understanding what the definition of God really is.

I do believe in a higher power actually, it's just getting more specific of who or what that is is the problem for me I would like to think!

Well, to answer that, one has to look at the person of Jesus. He claimed to be God in the flesh; to look upon him was to look upon God. Essentially, Jesus is God with a human face. But is it reasonable to believe him? Was he really God? Maybe he was lying. Maybe he was a nutball. What do the facts tell us? Many who have carefully analyzed the facts have concluded that Jesus was indeed who he said he was: God in the flesh. "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel is an excellent book on this matter. "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh MacDowell is another book that presents the powerful evidence in favor of Christ's claim to be God. Check 'em out!

Care to elaborate more on this?

Nah. Its kinda' off topic, so I'd rather not.

You have no idea how much I would be jumping for joy if I truly found out God was the truth! To know that a all-knowing and all-loving God is watching over me and caring for me would be truly amazing.

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that it really is amazing!

If I find out that God is not real, then I will be pretty dissapointed, but I have to keep going. This is a reason why I'm Agnostic though, I feel like it's impossible to prove or disprove God existing! I think it takes equal faith on BOTH sides (Atheist and Christian)!

Sure it does. But which side makes more sense? I would strongly suggest checking out Dr. William Lane Craig's debates on YouTube. He does a fine job of demonstrating the rationality of Christianity and the irrationality of atheism.

In the end, finding God isn't an intellectual thing. He isn't simply an idea or concept to adopt and defend, but the Living God, Creator of all things. He must reveal Himself to you. Pray with all your heart that He would do so and He will respond. But don't forget: God sees your heart clearly; He knows if you really want to find Him or not and He will respond accordingly.

Hate to say it Aiki, but you're wrong on this one

! Parkour is for all ages! Heck, even people at the age of 65 are still doing it.

I stand corrected. I will defer completely to your experience in this matter. I would very much like to see some video of older people doing Parkour. Any links you could provide?

Selah.

 

[JoshTraceur]

By definition, God is uncaused. If God has a cause, then whatever caused Him is actually God. But God cannot be caused and still be God, just like a cloud cannot be a rock and still be a cloud. By definition, a cloud cannot be a rock. So, when one starts asking, "Who made God?" one is not understanding what the definition of God really is.

I understand what you're saying here but it blows my mind to even try to think about it in deeper thought haha

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that it really is amazing!

Well, that's great ! Everyone who is a Christian seems to enjoy it very well. I can't say I'm too content with being Agnostic, but I get by.

Sure it does. But which side makes more sense? I would strongly suggest checking out Dr. William Lane Craig's debates on YouTube. He does a fine job of demonstrating the rationality of Christianity and the irrationality of atheism.

In the end, finding God isn't an intellectual thing. He isn't simply an idea or concept to adopt and defend, but the Living God, Creator of all things. He must reveal Himself to you. Pray with all your heart that He would do so and He will respond. But don't forget: God sees your heart clearly; He knows if you really want to find Him or not and He will respond accordingly.

Thanks for the suggestions! I will check the debate out and also check into getting some of those books! But the last thing you said...

He must reveal Himself to you.

What happens if he never reveals himself to me?

stand corrected. I will defer completely to your experience in this matter. I would very much like to see some video of older people doing Parkour. Any links you could provide?

I can't post links until my post count goes up or send you a pm! I do have two videos that I tried linking to you but can't haha! Brace yourself though Aiki! And 65 might have been an exaggeration, but I have a video of a 45 year old

 

[aiki]

What happens if he never reveals himself to me?

But He already has. He has revealed Himself to all people in the Creation and in their conscience, to many millions through His Word, the Bible, and through the person of Christ. This is why the apostle Paul writes:

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Here Paul explains that God has made Himself known through what He has created and that people suppress the truth of God "in unrighteousness". Instead of acknowledging the truth of God evident in Creation, people refuse it and darken their hearts with "futile thoughts." As a result, these people stand under God's wrath, without excuse for their rejection of Him. No one will stand before their Maker and make the argument that He hid Himself from them. As King David from the Old Testament wrote,

Psalms 19:1
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

God expects that each of us will work from the general revelation of God in Creation to the particular revelation He has made of Himself through His Word and through His Son, Jesus Christ. Some people just bail out on doing so because of the effort it takes. They want God to show up and - BAM! - blow their doors off with a personal appearance or some super-powerful emotional experience. They'll just sit back passively and wait for God to take the initiative toward them. If He doesn't, well, that's just proof He never existed. The things is, no one behaves like this toward something that they highly value. Jesus explains in a number of parables that when we truly value something, we pour our every effort into obtaining it. And what could be more valuable than God Himself? Nothing!

Matthew 13:44-46
44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Jeremiah 29:13
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

James 4:8
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

God waits until we are truly hungry for Him before He fully reveals Himself to us personally. He doesn't throw Himself at those who are half-hearted about knowing Him, or who are merely mildly interested in the idea of God. No, when we demonstrate a sincere and intense desire to know Him, when we are searching for Him as for hidden treasure, then He shows up. But don't expect God to be "found" in the way you think He'll be found. Typically, God reaches our hearts in ways that are quite different than we expect.

Selah.

 

[JoshTraceur]

Thank you everyone, especially you Aiki. I think I know what I need to do now.

 

[aiki]

Your very welcome, Josh. I pray God will make you hungry for Him.

Take care.

Aiki.