Save everyone?

[ClementofA]

You have chosen to put yourself in a position of judging God, if you are wrong--because you have called Him names.

I don't judge God. I believe Him. Therefore i reject false monstrous demonic caricatures of Him which are blasphemous.

 

[ClementofA]

Ahhh, more gamesmanship and emotional manipulation.

I care when, in this world, I see people make terrible choices that terribly damage many other people's lives and they don't get what they deserve. How many lives were affected when a 37 year old convicted sex offender claimed another victim, a 21 year old? How many lives were affected when a family is taken into DSS custody after a father rapes his way underage step-child? How many are sacrificed by others' love of money and power every day? I just heard a true story of a 2nd grader who stole a kid's bike, then brought a gun back and threatened the police officer dad with a police car in the driveway. How on earth does a 2nd grader become so wayward? I am saddened and even angry about generations of gang involvement or drug selling that corrupt the thinking of little ones to think police are bad and robbery and murder are good. My 30 year old cousin is dead, because he got hooked on drugs so others could get rich. I see horrible and sad things every day here in this world.

All the sufferings of this world combined would be practically nothing compared to one soul's infinite endless torments.

God provided a way--that we don't deserve--to escape what every one of us deserves. God is willing to accept anyone who comes; but coming comes at a cost. Nobody will be able to say they weren't warned and given the opportunity. God will ensure that. If they choose against Him, that was their choice. Whether their consequence includes punishment that goes on as long as true believes share life or whether God in his mercy allows them to be destroyed/annihilated or even if God circles back for them later: That is God's to decide, not yours or mine. He shared a lot that suggests there is a hell and He wouldn't have done that if there wasn't one.

You're preaching to the choir. Nobody here - annihilationists, endless torturists or universalists - are denying the existence of "hell".

So, if someone chooses not to answer His supernatural call, or chooses not to believe the full Testimony of God because they believe a lie someone led them to believe over what God told them, why should I feel tormented over their choice? They made the choice. They will have had the same choice to make that I had.

Don't worry, everyone will give account to God & He will judge justly. Mercy will triumph over judgement (Js.2:13b). Otherwise we'd all be lost forever. To whom much is given, much is required.

You are free to say I'm heartless, but God Himself said that people--in a place where there is no more suffering, sorrow, crying, pain, or death--will look on the carcases of those who didn't come in. God Himself said that there are people who were beheaded for their faith and are now under the altar in heaven crying out to God "How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

God's judgements are always corrective, for the good of the offender, not pointless, endless, hopeless insane sadism.

1 Cor.5:3b I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

 

[Dave L]

I accept your failure to prove your point.

I'm glad we can still laugh and not ourselves too seriously.

 

[Dave L]

Dear Dave: You have no grasp on what the koine krino means!

1. What is damnation?

2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

In the bible damnation = burning in hell forever.

 

[Dave L]

Dear Dave: How true! God is not discovered, He is revealed by the Spirit of the Lord.

There are many dwelling places in Father's House or many places of abode. Those dimensions are varied running from beyond, beyond to the broadest base of union with Him, the Source of all & the Goal of all.

Our God is the Saviour of all mankind but He is the Saviour malista of those who believe or trust in Him. Among those who trust in Him are those who have been in the Fire of His Glory being hurt over & over again until there is nothing left to "hurt". In short, the purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance. And among the malista are a small elite group who follow the Lamb in the withersoever.

Make zero mistake, Dave, the elect are the malista. They are a vital part of the Father's intention to restore the whole creation back into fellowship with the Author & Finisher. They are not the whole enchilada!

You must throw away large portions of the bible to hold your views. We already showed how Jesus did not pay for the Pharisees sins in John 10. Certainly these are not saved.

 

[Dave L]

God gave a king over to an - insane mind - for 7 years (Daniel 4) before Love Omnipotent restored his sanity & he worshipped God.

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

Love Omnipotent still seeks to save apostates from the faith:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Consider also:

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

But we also have a resurrection of Damnation that unravels your entire scheme.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

 

[Dave L]

Who will come to Him (Jn.6:37)? Isaiah says all who were angry with Him:

Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

All will be drawn to Christ (Jn.12:32).

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213 Questions Without Answers:
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Universalism is Not in the Bible

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” (John 6:65–66)

 

[FineLinen]

In the bible damnation = burning in hell forever.

Dear Dave: You have no grasp on what the koine krino means!

1. What is damnation?

2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

 

[FineLinen]

But we also have a resurrection of Damnation that unravels your entire scheme.

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

 

[Dave L]

Dear Dave: You have no grasp on what the koine krino means!

1. What is damnation?

2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41)

 

[Dave L]

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41)

 

[FineLinen]

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41)

Dear Dave: Wake up! You have been absorbed in radical Calvin far too long! Prepare yourself for krino where it must begin.

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

 

[FineLinen]

Ta Panta= the all

http://www.kingdomandglory.com/allinall/all05.pdf

 

[SaintCody777]

But, He didn't pray for what you said. He prayed for the Apostles and "for those who believe in Me through their word that they may be one, even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us." He prayed that "so that the world may believe that You sent Me." He wasn't praying the same thing for the world as He was for the others and He CERTAINLY DID NOT pray that the world may know Him. He simply prayed for " that the world may believe that The Father sent The Son."

If Jesus didn't want the world to know Him, then why did He clearly prayed that the whole world may believe that Yahweh sent Jesus on Earth and the Jesus is the son of God?
Doesn't God live the whole world , and not the elect only, as the famous verse, John 3:16 says?

 

[Der Alte]

. . . No, Jesus is the author of Paul's inspired inerrant words which are just as inspired & inerrant as any other Scriptures. In fact Jesus said the disciples could not bear to hear many things before His death, but when the Spirit would come He (the Spirit of truth) would teach them, guide them into all truth, and show them things to come. . .

You are correct on this one point Jesus did inspire the words of Paul. Everything Jesus is recorded as saying in the NT occurred long before Paul wrote anything and Jesus would not, could not contradict Himself. Therefore anything Paul said can reasonably, logically only be interpreted to agree with not contradict anything Jesus said. Your entire post which I quoted above is nothing but the same old, same old repetitious "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!."

Luke 13:23-25
(23) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
(24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:27
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.​

In vs. 24 Jesus did not say "you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able [now but will be able to enter later.]" In vs. 26 Jesus did not say "I know you not whence ye are [but that doesn't matter you will still enter in.]" In vs. 27 Jesus did not say "I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity [but you will still enter in later.]" My previous post has not been refuted.

Logical fallacy argument from silence. "Luke 13:24 does not say they 'will *never* be able to enter or never be saved"' so [I guess] that means they will be saved. Using that same argument there is nothing that says flying spaghetti monsters don't exist that means they do exist.
.....Who is Lord Jesus or Paul? Paul is not our standard for interpreting scripture, Jesus is. Paul knew the Greek word for "all,"/πᾶς he used it approximately 395 times so if Paul meant "all" in Romans 5:19 why didn't He use the Greek word for "all" instead of the Greek word for "many"/πολύς?
.....Since Jesus, not Paul, is the standard by which everything is measured, when something said by one of the NT writers seems to contradict the words of Jesus we can only reasonably, rationally interpret the NT writer to agree with the words of Jesus.
.....We do not ignore the words of Jesus to make scripture supports someone's heterodox assumption/presuppositions.​

 

[FineLinen]

If Jesus didn't want the world to know Him, then why did He clearly prayed that the whole world may believe that Yahweh sent Jesus on Earth and the Jesus is the son of God?
Doesn't God live the whole world , and not the elect only, as the famous verse, John 3:16 says?

Dear SaintCody: One day I aspire to reach complete sainthood reaching to the extreme edge of being "saved to the uttermost".

The Master of Reconciliation declares "when I am lifted up, I will draw all mankind unto Me." That dear Saint is a fact, & every last broken and bruised child of Adam 1 shall experience the mighty Draw of helkuo in various degrees of transformation: every last one!

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Dear Dave: You have no grasp on what the koine krino means!

1. What is damnation?

2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

"For the time is come when damnation must begin at the House of God."

Hello FL

I think Perish is the word that you may be looking for

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.…

so let's go and find this word to see if we can clarify it...

ZECHARIAH 13:7
Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, against the man who is My Companion,” declares the LORD of Hosts. “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8And in all the land,” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be cut off and PERISH, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”…

What is Fire? and how many Perished here?
Those who perished were cut off - those who went through the fire went on to be God's people.
Do we have the Broad and Narrow gate here?

 

[FineLinen]

Hello FL

I think Perish is the word that you may be looking for

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.…

so let's go and find this word to see if we can clarify it...

ZECHARIAH 13:7
Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, against the man who is My Companion,” declares the LORD of Hosts. “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8And in all the land,” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be cut off and PERISH, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”…

What is Fire? and how many Perished here?
Those who perished were cut off - those who went through the fire went on to be God's people.
Do we have the Broad and Narrow gate here?

Dear Fire: You & I both know that the high Road of God is in/by/thru Fire where we all must dwell.

What Dave fails to grasp (& many with him) is the fact "damnation" is a rotten translation of "krino" ! Rotten & entirely misleading! Krino begins, must begin, in the House of the Lord!

If Dave persists in his folly of sending my Fathers loved creation to damnation he will lead the way!

Everlasting Destruction

FAQ 17. What does “everlasting destruction” mean? 2Thes. 1:9

 

[FineLinen]

The way for all is through the fires, for fire is the great uniter and reconciler of all things; and things which without fire can never be united, in and through the fire are changed and become one.

Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for "our God is a consuming fire;" (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.

Therefore our Lord "came to cast fire into the earth," and desired nothing more than "that it should be already kindled;" (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,
Mark 9: 49-
For this is the very "baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire," (Matt. 3: 11) that "spirit of judgment and burning," promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defence; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for "He is like a refiner's fire, and like a fuller's soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness." (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ's flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.

NOTE:

Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God's purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, "He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)
And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For "the Lord will come with fire," and "by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many." (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;

NOTE:

James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that "warfare of the service of the tabernacle" (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.
HERE

One thing I keep wondering is: How can a physical thing like fire cause damage, pain or suffering to a spiritual thing like a soul?

 

[ClementofA]

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him
of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” (John 6:65–66)

The following verses prove that "no more" (= no longer, Greek οὐκέτι, ouketi) does not necessarily mean never again:

John 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are.

And yet Jesus will return again to this world at His second coming.

Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face.

Would the saints never again see Paul's face, not even in the afterlife? Or only in this mortal life:

Acts 20:38 sorrowing especially over the word that he had spoken, that they are about to see his face no more. Then they accompanied him to the ship.

If you grieve your brother by acting not in love, does that mean you can never again confess your sin & "walk according to love":

Romans 14:15 For if on account of food your brother is grieved, no longer are you walking according to love. Do not destroy with food that one of you for whom Christ died.

If you "no longer live", can you sin or backslide or apostasize & live again:

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And that which I now live in the flesh, I live through faith from the Son of God, the One having loved me and having given up Himself for me.

See also:

Galatians 4:7
Ephesians 2:19
Philemon 1:16

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world sees Me no more, but you see Me. Because I live, you also will live.

And yet every eye will see Him:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Yes! Amen!

Furthermore, postmortem repentance & salvation won’t require one literally physically “walk…with Him” (Jn.6:66), the pre resurrected mortal Jesus.

If someone “no longer” loves his GF/BF, does that necessarily mean he/she will never love them again, in this mortal life or postmortem?

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