Saturday Sabbath??

[MattyJames]

Thanks all for your replies. I spose I have a rather definate answer...ana-baptists don't observe the Saturday Sabbath.

mlqurgw, I understand your reasoning, although I feel that it lackes biblical sence. The Sabbath was from the begining. Since Noah observed the Food Laws (ie: Clean and unclean) it can only be assume that there were other "Laws/ Statutes" that were known either orally or in written code. Yes the Sabbath isn't mentioned untill Moses time, but it is the first statute given to man.
I don't mean to sound derogatory or condesending in anyway, but your line of thought dissmissed much of scripture, and does not take into account the terms of the New Covenant Heb 8:8/ Jer 31:31..." I will write my laws on their hearts and minds...and I will be their God." Notice the context of Jerimiah, OT, Law = Torah. In other words, the New Covenant is also based on the Torah.

I must also add, I am Penticostle in my roots. All opinions put forward here are very familiar to me. Alas, I held these view myself once. Its not like I'm being choosy.

Once again, thanks all for the responses, cleared things up.

Shalom,

Matt James

 

[A Brother In Christ]

romans 14:14
titus 1:15

 

[MattyJames]

romans 14:14
titus 1:15

Grettings ABIC, question. Would you consider Moses to be a pure man?

If so...then would you consider that Moses viewed Pork as unclean?

IMHO your use of both scriptures is out of context. But since I am already pushing the boundries of the rules, I will not go into an exposition on the subject.

Never forget, it was God that esteemed Sabbath, not man. Therefore there is only one person that can "un-esteem" Sabbath. That is God. Since he has not, I choose to "esteem" Sabbath in direct obediance to God.

Matt James

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Grettings ABIC, question. Would you consider Moses to be a pure man?

If so...then would you consider that Moses viewed Pork as unclean?

IMHO your use of both scriptures is out of context. But since I am already pushing the boundries of the rules, I will not go into an exposition on the subject.

Never forget, it was God that esteemed Sabbath, not man. Therefore there is only one person that can "un-esteem" Sabbath. That is God. Since he has not, I choose to "esteem" Sabbath in direct obediance to God.

Matt James

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law... no reason to follow it any more

Now those verse are for the church, the body, the bride...

To Moses it was unclean because God said... since God says it is clean now .... its clean

 

[MattyJames]

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law... no reason to follow it any more

Now those verse are for the church, the body, the bride...

To Moses it was unclean because God said... since God says it is clean now .... its clean

If the law defines sin (1 John 3:4), and our job is to turn sinners away from sin. Then the Law is needed for conversion. Also read Matt 5:17-19 - Note...all is not yet fulfilled.

If God is unchanging, then why had he suddenly changed on his stance with clean and unclean meats??

Once again, I find your thinking swayed by modern theories and thinking. Doesn't line up with scripture as I see it.

Matt James

 

[A Brother In Christ]

If the law defines sin (1 John 3:4), and our job is to turn sinners away from sin. Then the Law is needed for conversion. Also read Matt 5:17-19 - Note...all is not yet fulfilled.

If God is unchanging, then why had he suddenly changed on his stance with clean and unclean meats??

Once again, I find your thinking swayed by modern theories and thinking. Doesn't line up with scripture as I see it.

Matt James

romans 14:14
titus 1:15

gal 2:21

scripture

 

[Andyman_1970]

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law... no reason to follow it any more

Keep in mind when a Jewish rabbi (which Jesus was) uses the term "fulfill" with reference to Torah it has a specific meaning..........it doesn't mean do a way with, it means to correctly interprete and live out.

 

[JPPT1974]

Keep in mind when a Jewish rabbi (which Jesus was) uses the term "fulfill" with reference to Torah it has a specific meaning..........it doesn't mean do a way with, it means to correctly interprete and live out.

Thanks for explaing my friend
Now I know better!

 

[MattyJames]

romans 14:14
titus 1:15

gal 2:21

scripture

Matt 5:17-20
Romans 2:13
Romans 3:31
Romans 7:12/14 (Note: that which is spiritual cannot be done away with.)
Romans 8:7 (Note: What then? To be spiritually Minded is to be subject to Torah?? I would think so.)
James 1:25
James 2:17
James 2:21,26 (Note: Justification by works.)
1 John 2:3-5 ("His word" - In the begining was the "Word" - ie Torah.)
1 John 3:4
1 John 5:2,3
Rev 12:17 (Note: Commandments of God)
Rev 14:12 (Note: Commandments of God)
Rev 22:15 (Note: Do His Commandments)

Also, the only writer in ALL of scripture that brings any doubt to the validity of the Torah is Paul. One writer. And even then, its still doubt.This should be enough for us to take notice.


Matt James

 

[RichardT]

Sabbath was for the jews. There is no sabbath now.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Matt 5:17-20... IS OLD testament... before the church started

Romans 2:13
romans 3:20 for by the law is the knowledge of sin
Romans 3:31
romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifeth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promiose made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no trangression

Romans 7:12/14 (Note: that which is spiritual cannot be done away with.)

Law of God goes to John 13:34-35 then 1john 3:16-18,5:3, ect

Romans 8:7 (Note: What then? To be spiritually Minded is to be subject to Torah?? I would think so.)

how to be spiritual ..in Christ truth

col 3:1 Since ye then been risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Since we are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God...

James 1:25
James 2:17
James 2:21,26 (Note: Justification by works.)
titus 3:5, 2 tim 1:9, eph 2:8-9, romans 4:2-8

1 John 2:3-5 ("His word" - In the begining was the "Word" - ie Torah.)
1 John 3:4
1 John 5:2,3
Rev 12:17 (Note: Commandments of God) dealing with Jews herenot church we are raptured
Rev 14:12 (Note: Commandments of God)
Rev 22:15 (Note: Do His Commandments)

Gal 2:21....

Gal 5:18 Since we are led of the Spirit, ye are not under law.

 

[RichardT]

Matt 5:17-20... IS OLD testament... before the church started

Romans 2:13
romans 3:20 for by the law is the knowledge of sin
Romans 3:31
romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifeth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promiose made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no trangression

Romans 7:12/14 (Note: that which is spiritual cannot be done away with.)

Law of God goes to John 13:34-35 then 1john 3:16-18,5:3, ect

Romans 8:7 (Note: What then? To be spiritually Minded is to be subject to Torah?? I would think so.)

how to be spiritual ..in Christ truth

col 3:1 Since ye then been risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Since we are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God...

James 1:25
James 2:17
James 2:21,26 (Note: Justification by works.)
titus 3:5, 2 tim 1:9, eph 2:8-9, romans 4:2-8

1 John 2:3-5 ("His word" - In the begining was the "Word" - ie Torah.)
1 John 3:4
1 John 5:2,3
Rev 12:17 (Note: Commandments of God) dealing with Jews herenot church we are raptured
Rev 14:12 (Note: Commandments of God)
Rev 22:15 (Note: Do His Commandments)

Gal 2:21....

Gal 5:18 Since we are led of the Spirit, ye are not under law.

uh, what?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

the bold text is me responding to you

 

[MattyJames]

Matt 5:17-20... IS OLD testament... before the church started

Romans 2:13
romans 3:20 for by the law is the knowledge of sin
Romans 3:31
romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifeth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promiose made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no trangression

Romans 7:12/14 (Note: that which is spiritual cannot be done away with.)

Law of God goes to John 13:34-35 then 1john 3:16-18,5:3, ect

Romans 8:7 (Note: What then? To be spiritually Minded is to be subject to Torah?? I would think so.)

how to be spiritual ..in Christ truth

col 3:1 Since ye then been risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Since we are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God...

James 1:25
James 2:17
James 2:21,26 (Note: Justification by works.)
titus 3:5, 2 tim 1:9, eph 2:8-9, romans 4:2-8

1 John 2:3-5 ("His word" - In the begining was the "Word" - ie Torah.)
1 John 3:4
1 John 5:2,3
Rev 12:17 (Note: Commandments of God) dealing with Jews herenot church we are raptured
Rev 14:12 (Note: Commandments of God)
Rev 22:15 (Note: Do His Commandments)

Gal 2:21....

Gal 5:18 Since we are led of the Spirit, ye are not under law.

Greetings ABITC,

I understand your point, and your views. Like I've posted earlier, I too once held the same beliefs.
However, I still feel that your theology is "smoked screened" by years of "Christian Theology" and twisted scripture, to suit ones own self.

I accept that this debate is probably of no profit, for you are not prepared to understand my position (Not just me, but also thousands of others out there with this same understanding). You are falling into the mainstream interpretation of Pauline scriptures that totally contradicts every other biblical writer.(All the prophets and Apostles) As I have said to others before "Prove the nullifying of the Law without Paulene scriptures". It is impossible. Without Paul, there are no other "absolute" sriptures that "supposedly" support the nullifying of the Law.

I thankyou for your time in posting. However, I am convicted that "...Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." (Deut 8:3) Notice this verse is out of the Torah (Law). And note Paul states that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." 2 Tim 3:16. (Note Paul is talking only about Old Testiment scripture for the NT was not in place at that time.)

Furthermore, your statment,
"Matt 5:17-20... IS OLD testament... before the church started."
is highly unintelegent. In one clean sweep you have just annulled the whole of Christs teachings and that somehow what He was teaching was only of use for 3 1/2 years. I am astounded that you would even contemplate such thinking.

I do hope that you will look more deeply into the Hebrew/ Israel/ Judeo/ Messianic Faith and its perfect alignment of all scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. Not the Greco/ Roman/ European faith and its replacement theologies, absolutely founded upon the Traditions and Doctrines of men. (Matt 15:9)

I do hope that one day you will reconsider your position. As for me, I am not interested in debating this further.

Reguards.

Matt James

 

[JPPT1974]

I think that as Christians even though that
We are "living in the world," we aren't suppose
To think like the world! Because Jesus wasn't
Of this world either!

 

[MattyJames]

I think that as Christians even though that
We are "living in the world," we aren't suppose
To think like the world! Because Jesus wasn't
Of this world either!

I'm not sure how this applies to the subject, but well said none the less. I think you are very right.

Matt James

 

[mont974x4]

I find it interesting that of the 10 Commandments all but the Sabbath are again directly commanded in the NT. I also believe that because of the work of Christ we are no longer bound by the Law, that being the ceremonial law. We aren't required to avoid certain foods or build a railing on our roof, for examples. These were fitting for the society at the time but do not practicly fit in our society. The concept behind the statutes may apply but the actual application do not. For example, since we don;t have flat roofs that are extensions of the living space we don't need a railing, however, we should provide a safe environment for our family and visitors in our home.

How does all this affect how we approach the Sabbath? Since it is not directly commanded again in the NT I don't think it is required. If we look to the early church we can see a good example of how things should function. They spent more than just one day together. They worshipped together, fellowshipped together, and served eachother virtually every day. We are too worship/pray at all times. I believe this to mean that we should always have the attitude that we are in God's presence at all times, because we are. That does not mean we stop working and spend our whole time in corporate worship.

Also if we look at Jesus' words regarding the two greatest commendments if we love God and love people the way we should then we basically obey the law.

Mat 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

As to the rest that is promised to us, is it a physical rest? or is it a spiritual rest? Is it now or is it when we get to Heaven? I tend to think it is a spiritual rest and it is when we get to Heaven. With my medical condition I won't see true physical rest until I get my new body from Him. As to spiritual rest, I don't believe that is for this age as non-believers searching for truth and wanting peace of mind people constantly try new things whether it is cults, drugs, sex, booze, or other things all for fulfillment. As a believer we should be constantly looking to Him and growing due to the work of the Holy Spirit while yearning for the day we see Him face to face and crying out in prayerful intercession for others. Simply put, we are always engaged in spiritual warfare, there are no cease fires until that glorious day when we are called home to Him.

 

[eldermike]

You can't make a pieces/part scriptual argument out of this. This is a doctrinal issue concerning the following:
The purpose of the law.
The purpose of the cross.
Justification
Santification

If it's the law you are keeping for justification purpose then you must keep all of it. Which is the very reason for the law, it's impossible for the use of justification, but instead points us to Christ, who became the law in total by forgiving us through his blood, not our works, or even our obedience. good looks, scriptural understanding, or anything we might come up with.
If the whole law will not justify, then what single part of it can?

And further; if it's not for the purpose of justification then what is the purpose of keeping some of it?

Another question: When were gentiles given the law?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Greetings ABITC,

I understand your point, and your views. Like I've posted earlier, I too once held the same beliefs.
However, I still feel that your theology is "smoked screened" by years of "Christian Theology" and twisted scripture, to suit ones own self.

I accept that this debate is probably of no profit, for you are not prepared to understand my position (Not just me, but also thousands of others out there with this same understanding). You are falling into the mainstream interpretation of Pauline scriptures that totally contradicts every other biblical writer.(All the prophets and Apostles) As I have said to others before "Prove the nullifying of the Law without Paulene scriptures". It is impossible. Without Paul, there are no other "absolute" sriptures that "supposedly" support the nullifying of the Law.

I thankyou for your time in posting. However, I am convicted that "...Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." (Deut 8:3) Notice this verse is out of the Torah (Law). And note Paul states that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." 2 Tim 3:16. (Note Paul is talking only about Old Testiment scripture for the NT was not in place at that time.)

Furthermore, your statment,
"Matt 5:17-20... IS OLD testament... before the church started."
is highly unintelegent. In one clean sweep you have just annulled the whole of Christs teachings and that somehow what He was teaching was only of use for 3 1/2 years. I am astounded that you would even contemplate such thinking.

I do hope that you will look more deeply into the Hebrew/ Israel/ Judeo/ Messianic Faith and its perfect alignment of all scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. Not the Greco/ Roman/ European faith and its replacement theologies, absolutely founded upon the Traditions and Doctrines of men. (Matt 15:9)

I do hope that one day you will reconsider your position. As for me, I am not interested in debating this further.

Reguards.

Matt James

Christ fulfilled the law....

we have a higher calling ....john 13:34-35

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Also if we look at Jesus' words regarding the two greatest commendments if we love God and love people the way we should then we basically obey the law.

Mat 22:36 Teacher, which is the greatcommandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

.

John 13:34-35 is the New kind commandment for US

matt 22 is for the Jews under law