Saturday Sabbath??

[eldermike]

Where does Romans 3:23 say all to come will sin? (if we are still referencing that passage) While I would argue that is a true assumption on your part it is an assuption without Scriptural backing.

To clarify where I'm coming from, all are personally responsible for their sins and no one elses.

We are way off topic now, so I don't want to incure the "wrath" of the topic police.........LOL

Before the topic police get here

If a man reads Rom. 3:23 100 years from now will it still be true?

 

[Andyman_1970]

This is where Hebrew thinking vs. Greek thinking comes in to play.

Greek thinking is very "either or", and is the kind of thinking we were all educated with, and has been the predominate mode of thinking in the church and most theologians from about the 4th century on.

Hebrew thinking (or Eastern thinking as it's sometimes referred to) is much different than Greek thinking, and was the mode of thinking of those who brought us the Scriptures. In this mode they are very comfortable holding two contradictory truths (for example in this discussion man's free will vs. God's sovereignty) to be equally true at the same time........instead of an "either or" proposition it's more like a "both and" proposition.

Anyway, this should shed some light on where I'm coming from in this discussion.

 

[eldermike]

This is where Hebrew thinking vs. Greek thinking comes in to play.

Greek thinking is very "either or", and is the kind of thinking we were all educated with, and has been the predominate mode of thinking in the church and most theologians from about the 4th century on.

Hebrew thinking (or Eastern thinking as it's sometimes referred to) is much different than Greek thinking, and was the mode of thinking of those who brought us the Scriptures. In this mode they are very comfortable holding two contradictory truths (for example in this discussion man's free will vs. God's sovereignty) to be equally true at the same time........instead of an "either or" proposition it's more like a "both and" proposition.

Anyway, this should shed some light on where I'm coming from in this discussion.

It does, and I have been taught both ways.

 

[mont974x4]

2 Sam 12:10 is an example of the punishment of the father being passed on.

The reference in Proverbs was definately a good one for the discussion of mans free will vs Gods soveriegnty.

Mike, good point. The idea that all of have sinned was true yesterday, is true today, and will be true in the future.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.
Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.





It is of great importance that we realize we are doomed to death because of sin from birth. It is only God's grace that saves us through Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

Could we also say that OT prophesy supports the idea that current sins affect future generations, as past sins affect present and future generations. While I certainly support the idea that the chain may be broken, so to speak, it is only due to God's grace and the personal relationship of individuals with God.

For example, we often see abuse and alcoholism go on in a family for generations, until one of the descendants becomes saved and the Holy Spirit breaks that cycle.

I hope that makes sense. lol I am running back and forth between posting here and rewiring our house and hanging drywall.

 

[Andyman_1970]

[/SIZE]It is of great importance that we realize we are doomed to death because of sin from birth.

How can a new born baby be guilty of sin? Are you asserting that I am responsible for someone's sin other than my own?

 

[Andyman_1970]

2 Sam 12:10 is an example of the punishment of the father being passed on.

I would say that's a bit of a thin basis to assert that children are born guilty of their parents sin.

How do you reconcile the contradiction we have between this passge in 2 Samuel and Ezekiel 18? (I believe there are also a few passages in the Torah that indicate the children are not responsible for the parents sin, I'll have to find those).

 

[mont974x4]

No I am not saying we are not responsible for our own sin. I am simply saying that being born into this sinful world I share in the condemnation of sin unless I turn to Christ as my Lord and Savior.


I don't see any contradictions. I see examples of God either showing His grace at that time or God showing His justice.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Deut. 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6 "But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20 "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

 

[Andyman_1970]

I am simply saying that being born into this sinful world I share in the condemnation of sin unless I turn to Christ as my Lord and Savior.

How can a new born baby be guilty of sin, as you imply, other than they are being held responsible for the sins of their parents or ancestors? Sin is disobedince to God's Law, how can a new born baby be disobedient to God's Law (Torah)?

 

[eldermike]

Deut. 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6 "But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20 "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

Sin is not generation to generation (a cycle that can be broken) it's just sin in everyone (not a cycle but a condition). That's all this says.

 

[mont974x4]

I believe a newborn has not reached an age of accountability and would fall under grace.

The sin itself is not passed on but rather the nature of sin and certainly the consequences unless God's grace is upon them.

 

[eldermike]

I believe a newborn has not reached an age of accountability and would fall under grace.

The sin itself is not passed on but rather the nature of sin and certainly the consequences unless God's grace is upon them.

That is a good baptist belief as well. Do babies go to heaven is a whole nuther subject. My opinion is yes. But the reason is not accountability related it's only the cross, only God, otherwise we begin to take credit for our good choices in life.

 

[mont974x4]

uh oh I didn't want to be a good Baptist. lol Actually I attend a small SBC but I'm not sold on the need to be a "member" (although I am a "member") and I generally find denominational titles to be divisive. Sorry, that probably all belongs in another thread, doesn't it?

 

[eldermike]

uh oh I didn't want to be a good Baptist. lol Actually I attend a small SBC but I'm not sold on the need to be a "member" (although I am a "member") and I generally find denominational titles to be divisive. Sorry, that probably all belongs in another thread, doesn't it?

That's actually a good SBC attitude, I share it

 

[mesue]

Hello all,

Was discussing with my father the roots of Anabaptists and we were stumped as to whether you's observed the Saturday Sabbath or Sunday Sabbath.

I browsed through your list of doctrines but I didn't see any definate in this area.

Would appreciate any comments.

Many Thanks,

Matt James

Moved to Anabaptist Forum as OP is addressing Anabaptists.

 

[AmishBoy]

Sin is not generation to generation (a cycle that can be broken) it's just sin in everyone (not a cycle but a condition). That's all this says.

I feel like sin is a cycling condition, im prob going off on a tangent here lol but it is a nature born into us. Parents look at their 3-4 year old and he/she is lying to them and they are wondering who taught them that?? Sin is not cycled but its nature is born into each of us.

 

[ZiSunka]

I feel like sin is a cycling condition, im prob going off on a tangent here lol but it is a nature born into us. Parents look at their 3-4 year old and he/she is lying to them and they are wondering who taught them that?? Sin is not cycled but its nature is born into each of us.

Sin is indeed born into us.

My deaf nephew started telling lies when he was 3. He couldn't hear, so it isn't like he learned to lie from listening to his mom or dad. Yet when he did something bad, he lied to his mother about who did it (he blamed his dog for all the holes in his Ronald McDonald inflatable doll, but his mother saw him poke the thing with a push pin like a hundred times).

Sin isn't something we have to learn, we are born with it.

 

[Danfrey]

If we are born with sin, we better be sure to baptise our infants. Original sin was a concept that didn't come along until Augustine used it to defend infant baptism. We are born in the flesh which lends itself to falling into sin, but a baby is born pure. That is why most believe that a baby that dies will be in paradise.

 

[Andyman_1970]

If we are born with sin, we better be sure to baptise our infants. Original sin was a concept that didn't come along until Augustine used it to defend infant baptism. We are born in the flesh which lends itself to falling into sin, but a baby is born pure. That is why most believe that a baby that dies will be in paradise.

Yeah what he said............